Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Mar 1997

Vol. 476 No. 7

Order of Business.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Quinn)

It is proposed to take No. 10, motion re leave to withdraw Public Service Management Bill, 1997; No. 11, motion re Second Report of the sub-Committee on Procedure and Privileges on reform of Dáil procedure; No. 1, Dublin Docklands Development Authority Bill, 1996, amendments from the Seanad; No. 26, motion re report of the Tribunal of Inquiry into the Blood Transfusion Service Board (resumed) and No. 2, Health (Provision of Information) Bill, 1997 [Seanad], Second and Remaining Stages.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; Nos. 10 and 11 shall be decided without debate; the amendments from the Seanad to No. 1 shall be taken together and decided without debate by one question which shall be put from the Chair; the proceedings on No. 26, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 6.45 p.m.; and the Second and Remaining Stages of No. 2 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion at 10.15 p.m. tonight by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Health. Private Members' Business shall be No. 52, protection of Workers (Shops) Bill, 1996, Second Stage.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are five matters before the House. Is the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is it agreed that Nos. 10 and 11 be decided without debate? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with No. 1 agreed to? Agreed. Are the proposals for dealing with item No. 26 agreed to?

Mr. B. Ahern

Last week my party's Deputy leader requested that at the end of this significant debate there should be a 30 minute question and answer session. Can the Minister confirm there will be such an arrangement? If not, I wish to propose an amendment to item No. 4 of today's Order of Business to provide that a 30 minute question and answer session be held at the conclusion of the debate.

Miss Harney

When the present Taoiseach was leader of the Opposition he was critical of the then Government for not allocating time for Deputies to ask questions on the beef tribunal report. When I raised this issue with the Tánaiste last week, he assured me the Minister for Health would answer questions today about the hepatitis C scandal. However, all questions on that matter have been ruled out of order, as were Adjournment Debates on the latest clerical error on the part of the BTSB. It is wholly unacceptable that time is not to be provided for questions at the conclusion of this debate.

Mr. Quinn

The Government reflected on this issue over the weekend and its position is unchanged. The Minister for Health and his predecessor, the current Minister for the Environment, have contributed to the debate and the Minister for Health will reply comprehensively to questions in his concluding contribution.

Mr. B. Ahern

This debate is not on a simple matter; it is a most important debate. A number of Deputies who have been involved with this issue for a long period would like to speak a second time. That is not possible as it is not Committee Stage of a Bill but a motion before the House.

There have been question and answer sessions under successive Governments on less significant issues in the past five or six years. The fact that the two Ministers have contributed to the debate means there are still questions that require clarification or have been left unanswered. My colleagues would like to put questions on their own behalf and on behalf of others who are not Members of the House. The Ministers are au fait with the issues and have the answers. They are confident enough to answer questions in the national media every day.

It seems incredible that a 30 minute question and answer session cannot be facilitated following a significant debate in the House. As Deputy Harney correctly pointed out, all other questions on this issue have been ruled out of order and probably will continue to be ruled out of order for some time to come.

Miss Harney

This Government promised it would be open, transparent and accountable. There should be parliamentary accountability in this House. The terms of reference for the tribunal did not permit it to deal with political responsibility and accountability. Both Ministers have also refused to get involved in any head to head debates in the media with Opposition spokespersons. That is not good enough.

Mr. Howlin

That is not true. We were on "Prime Time" last Thursday.

Miss Harney

The Minister would not join the panel. He insisted on a separate slot.

Mr. Callely

He was afraid he might be shafted.

Miss Harney

This is the biggest scandal in the history of our health services. It is wholly inappropriate that the Government does not permit questions to be put to the Ministers. What is the Minister for Finance afraid of? Why is he afraid of questions?

Mr. Quinn

I had responsibility for taking the Order of Business last Thursday and I answered some of the questions posed by Opposition spokespersons. The use of the phrase "head to head" by Deputy Harney is an indication of the type of engagement she seeks. All sides of the House seek a response to the questions which have been posed. I listened to the Minister for Health open the debate last Thursday and to Deputy Cowen's contribution, in which he posed many questions. I heard my colleague and friend, the Minister for the Environment, respond to them——

Mr. Howlin

Minus the vitriol.

Mr. Cowen

The Minister should not provoke me.

Mr. Quinn

The Minister for Health has assured me he will respond comprehensively to all the questions posed.

This is a scandal from which all parties must learn. Every party, with the exception of the Green Party and the Independents, has shared responsibility for Government at various times during the unfolding of the scandal, although they were not made aware of the scandal at those times. Political parties should refrain from turning a national scandal into a party political debate. We must be responsible, if only to respect the injury, hurt and damage done to citizens of the State by institutions of the State and of which I am ashamed.

Let us get on with the debate. If there are outstanding questions at the conclusion of the debate or issues that need to be addressed upon "mature reflection", to borrow the well known phrase, let us address them calmly. Let us depoliticise this matter so we can address the issues that must be addressed.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A number of Deputies are offering but we cannot and will not debate this matter now. We are eroding precious time for the debate. Perhaps Deputy Ahern would propose the amendment.

Mr. B. Ahern

I move: "That there be a 30 minute question and answer session with the Minister for Health at the conclusion of item 4."

I agree with much of what the Minister has said. However, the way to conclude this matter is to hold a question and answer session at the end of the debate rather than let it drag on. People will analyse questions for the next two weeks over the Easter break. If I were the Minister I would gladly accept my proposal to end the issue. We have dealt with far less important issues in this manner. It will not break anybody's heart and the House can sit a little later to complete the matter. It is a reasonable request.

Amendment put.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 59; Níl, 70.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, David.
• Aylward, Liam.
• Brennan, Matt.
• Briscoe, Ben.
• Browne, John (Wexford).
• Burke, Raphael.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Connolly, Ger.
• Cowen, Brian.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Davern, Noel.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Doherty, Seán.
• Ellis, John.
• Fitzgerald, Liam.
• Flood, Chris.
• Foley, Denis.
• Fox, Mildred.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hughes, Séamus.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kenneally, Brendan.
• Keogh, Helen.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kitt, Michael.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lawlor, Liam.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McCreevy, Charlie.
• McDaid, James.
• McDowell, Michael.
• Moffatt, Tom.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Nolan, M.J.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Donnell, Liz.
• O'Donoghue, John.
• O'Hanlon, Rory.
• O'Keeffe, Batt.
• O'Leary, John.
• O'Malley, Desmond.
• O'Rourke, Mary.
• Power, Seán.
• Reynolds, Albert.
• Ryan, Eoin.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Woods, Michael.

Níl

• Ahearn, Theresa.
• Allen, Bernard.
• Barrett, Seán.
• Bell, Michael.
• Bhamjee, Moosajee.
• Bhreathnach, Niamh.
• Boylan, Andrew.
• Bradford, Paul.
• Broughan, Thomas.
• Browne, John (Carlow-Kilkenny).
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burke, Liam.
• Burton, Joan.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Donal.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Coveney, Hugh.
• Harte, Paddy.
• Higgins, Jim.
• Higgins, Michael.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Pádraic.
• McDowell, Derek.
• McGahon, Brendan.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McManus, Liz.
• Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.
• Mulvihill, John.
• Nealon, Ted.
• Noonan, Michael (Limerick East).
• O'Keeffe, Jim.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowley, Frank.
• Deasy, Austin.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Doyle, Avril.
• Dukes, Alan.
• Durkan, Bernard.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Finucane, Michael.
• Fitzgerald, Brian.
• Fitzgerald, Eithne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Flaherty, Mary.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gallagher, Pat (Laoighis-Offaly).
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• Owen, Nora.
• Pattison, Séamus.
• Penrose, William.
• Quinn, Ruairí
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, John.
• Ryan, Seán.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Sheehan, P.J.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Taylor, Mervyn.
• Timmins, Godfrey.
• Upton, Pat.
• Walsh, Éamon.
• Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies D. Ahern and Callely; Níl, Deputies J. Higgins and B. Fitzgerald.

Amendment declared lost.

Question, "That the proposals for dealing with No. 26 be agreed to", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Are the proposals for dealing with No. 2 satisfactory and agreed? Agreed.