David Stanton
Question:5 Mr. Stanton asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment if she will give details of the Government's policy regarding Sunday trading. [18436/97]
Other Questions. - Sunday Trading.
I congratulate Deputies Stanton, Perry and Naughten on their election and wish them well. I apologise for the absence of the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, who is attending a Council of Ministers meeting in Brussels.
The Shops (Hours of Trading) Act, 1938, governs the opening hours of retail establishments. The Act provides for a ban on Sunday trading for most shops but gives the Minister power, by order, to add to the list of exempted businesses or to exempt specified regions from the provisions of the Act. An order made later that year exempted the entire country from the provisions of the Act and effectively removed all restrictions on Sunday trading. This remains the position.
It has been suggested that concerns expressed about the growth of Sunday trading in recent years might be addressed by reintroducing controls under the 1938 Act. However, the previous Government obtained legal advice to the effect that distinctions between shops for the purposes of Sunday trading on the basis of type or size would be vulnerable to constitutional challenge. For this reason, it took the view, when it included certain provisions on Sunday working in the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997, that any difficulties to which the increase in Sunday trading had given rise could, and should, be dealt with as conditions of employment issues.
Since taking up office, my colleague, Deputy Kitt, Minister of State with responsibility for labour affairs, consumer rights and international trade, met representatives of ICTU and IBEC to review the position on Sunday working in the retail sector. As a result of those discussions, he invited both parties to open discussions with a view to exploring the possibility of an agreement being entered into between employer and employee representatives of the main players in the sector.
This is another U-turn.
I hope the Deputy is not standing on his head when I have finished.
The Minister offered to assist this process in any way he could. This approach reflects his belief, with which I agree, that partnership should be the cornerstone of any initiative in this area. The social partners are currently considering the proposal.
I thank the Minister for his good wishes and congratulate him and the Tánaiste on their appointments.
Is the Minister aware of the Bill circulated by the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, prior to the election? What happened to that Bill? Will it be reintroduced? Has Government policy changed now that Fianna Fáil has moved to the other side of the House? Is the Minister of State concerned about the casualisation of the workforce and the increase in part-time workers because of Sunday trading? Is he aware that studies reveal that such trading is not resulting in more money being spent in shops or in extra jobs? Is he aware that, if anything, jobs are being lost because of Sunday trading and in the long-term it will lead to an increase in costs? Does the Minister of State agree it is up to us to protect the weakest in society? What is the Government's policy on minimum rates of pay, taking into account the number of part-time workers and the casualisation of the workforce? The Minister of State, Deputy O'Dea, said he does not agree with a minimum wage, while the Taoiseach said he does. Who will make the decision on that issue?
I thank Deputy Stanton for raising these questions. I am aware of a Bill circulated by my ministerial colleague, Deputy Kitt, in the past. I am sure Deputy Stanton's colleagues will tell him that once there is an election and the previous Dáil is terminated all Bills before it die with it. There has been a change of Government and the Minister of State is on top of this position and has been for a long time. He is dealing with this matter in a positive and vigorous manner. I could not agree that jobs have been lost as a result of this position. Statistics will show they have not been but that there has been a large increase in the number of people at work. If a detailed analysis on the cost factor was carried out it would be hard if not impossible to prove there has been an increase in costs vis-a -vis production. While a policy on a minimum wage is a connected matter, it must be considered in the context of the totality of the situation. That is being done by the Government.
On the wider social issue of Sunday trading, for years Sunday has been regarded as a rest day and a family day. Is the Minister of State not concerned about the trend that more and more people are working on Sundays? Greed is propelling that trend. Once one shop opens other must open to be competitive. Is the Minister of State concerned about the effect of this trend on smaller shops and businesses in our towns and that thousands of small firms have gone out of business in recent years because of it? Does he intend to impose any restriction on the large multiples? Is there a measure to restrict them opening on Christmas Day or Easter Sunday and, if not, has he any proposals for that?
I agree with much of what Deputy Stanton said. The pace of life has become so fast that we need two distinct days, a rest day and a relaxing day.
Does the Minister of State propose to introduce an eight day week?
In political life Sunday used to be a wonderful day of rest and relaxation and a family day but that is not the case any more, and that is not good for society. There are proposals, but the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt, the Department and the Tánaiste and the Government are trying to achieve consensus, a unity of purpose and a positive and responsible attitude from employer and employee organisations, and the unions, to achieve what society would require, a balanced conclusion so that we can all move forward together. I am confident that if we continue the dialogue, responsibility will be discharged by all sides and ultimately agreement can be reached.
I, along with seven other Labour TDs and a Labour Minister, was present last February at a meeting in Wynn's Hotel organised by the MANDATE trade union which led a valiant and courageous fight on behalf of its workers on this matter. The only non-Labour Party person there who apparently cared about this issue at the time was the Minister of State, Deputy Kitt. He gave a pledge in writing to the secretary of the MANDATE trade union that as soon as his party was returned to Government it would introduce necessary legislation to hold a referendum to curb Sunday trading. Where is he today? He is conveniently away on European business. We have to listen to his excuses on this matter when he gave a commitment on it. It will be awful if the Opposition has to introduce Private Members' legislation which no doubt would not be accepted by the Government. Despite the Minister of State having given a commitment to address this matter in Opposition he is reneging on it. That is an appalling state of affairs and an appalling message to send to the thousands of low paid part-time casual workers who have no choice this coming Sunday but to go to work while the Minister of State or I can choose to go to watch a Gaelic match after we have greeted — as politicians tend to — the crowds coming out from Mass. The Government has reneged on this and is becoming the Government of U-turns — this is the ninth or tenth one.
I am surprised Deputy Broughan makes such an allegation against this Government which has been in office for only 120 days.
Everything was possible when the Government was in Opposition.
We are a Government of positive action. Deputy Tom Kitt was a responsible person in Opposition. We do not hunt in packs. He was a spokesperson for the party, he went to that meeting and dealt with it responsibly.
He gave a pledge.
Of course he gave an honourable pledge, as did Deputy Broughan and his party. His colleague was the Minister of State responsible for this — what did she do? There was no conclusion.
She moved for a referendum.
Deputy Tom Kitt is now the Minister charged with this responsibility. He must act in a responsible manner and look at the broad picture. There is a huge commercial human resource involved. Deputy Kitt, as Minister, is seeking consensus, progress and positive action.
It is being put on the long finger.
I hope we have Deputy Broughan's support and that of the other parties in the House to achieve this so we can do what is best for society.
The rescinding of the order and Sunday trading are linked. Is the Minister aware of the devastating effects this will have on the industry and not only retailers? The multiples will dictate terms to suppliers and there will be huge job losses. The way to perfect Sunday trading is to have a cut-off area of footage per store. It is important to give a service, but multiples are giving this service every day, on Bank Holidays and Sundays. The grocery trade will go down the drain and jobs will be lost.
I appreciate what Deputy Perry said. However, this matter boils down to legal interpretation.
The Government wanted us to pass this.
Did the Government not get legal advice when in Opposition?
We are the only country in Europe without regulation.
We must take a balanced, legal and responsible decision. Minister Kitt is trying to achieve consensus among all parties involved. I would like there to be no Sunday trading, but we cannot survive without some element of it. Commerce, services and consumers demand it. Minister Kitt is doing his utmost to achieve a balance.
All parties gave commitments. The Opposition was in Government for almost three years but was not able to resolve this matter. Surely we are not expected to resolve it in 120 days?
The Bill was accepted.
Hopefully with the support of the Opposition and a responsible attitude there will be a positive conclusion. I look forward to the Opposition's support in what we want to achieve.
I congratulate Deputy Stanton for putting down this important question. We worked on this issue and were moving, with MANDATE, towards a referendum, as there are constitutional problems. Is the Minister aware that most of the demands, apart from the unions and workers, come from small supermarket owners and their employees who want the Government to act to enable them to close on Sunday?
I am aware of the contribution made to this country by the small retailer and the corner shop — the micro performers. However, competition creates difficulty. People require jobs and others want a return on their investment. We must operate on a legal and level playing field to protect competition. We have many things to consider and I hope that Deputies use their influence to ensure a consensus is achieved.
Is the Minister suggesting that the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Tom Kitt, was irresponsible when he introduced this Bill in the last Dáil? Why not reintroduce it? What is wrong with it that it cannot be introduced now? It was accepted by the previous Government. Have the Progressive Democrats, who are aligned to big business, changed the Minister's mind on this issue?
This Government is one of collective responsibility with positive goals. We are all playing as a team to reach a decision. This Bill was introduced by a Deputy in Opposition who is now dealing with the matter as a Minister.
Reintroduce it.
It died with the last Dáil. The Minister, Deputy Tom Kitt, is trying to achieve a consensus.
It is dying now.
The modern jargon is self-regulation and consensus. Surely the Minister should be given the opportunity to achieve that.
We are out of step with Europe.
Decisions will be taken if necessary.
When?
When we have arrived at a particular stage.
The Minister, Deputy Kitt, said he hoped the Government followed it through and ensured it was done.
It is not right to quote what someone said at Question Time when I am trying to answer questions. The Minister is committed to achieving a consensus between the employers and employees. We hope that consensus will be found with the support of the unions, particularly IBEC.
We have spent 16 minutes on one question.
I am sorry if I delayed the House.
We must find out what the Government is doing with its legislation.
When Members intervene after the Minister's reply, they should ask short supplementary questions and not make statements. I appeal to Deputies not to do so as it is unfair to other Members who have tabled questions.