Vol. 483 No. 1
1 Proinsias De Rossa asked the Taoiseach if he will give details of the purpose of his meeting on 6 November 1997 with representatives of the Irish Taxi Drivers' Federation and the National Taxi Drivers' Union; the matters discussed in this regard; the outcome, if any, of the meeting; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19278/97]
2 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will give details of the terms of reference for the forum to examine the operation and regulation of the taxi business; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19431/97]
3 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the individual who will represent his Department on the forum to examine the operation and regulation of the taxi business. [19432/97]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3, inclusive, together.
I met the Taxi Drivers' Federation and the National Taxi Drivers' Union in order to allow them to outline the problems they were experiencing with the authorities. The result of the meeting was that I undertook to establish a forum which would allow dialogue between the taxi drivers and the authorities.
The Dublin Taxi Forum will be established under the chairmanship of Mr. John F. Mahony, chairman of the steering committee of the Dublin Transportation Office. Taxi drivers, the corporation, Dublin county councils and a number of Departments as well as consumers and the Garda will be represented at the forum. The terms of reference of the forum will be determined by the chairman who will informally consult the interested parties. The precise membership of the forum has not yet been decided but it will be at a senior level.
When will the forum meet and when will it conclude its business? Assuming it will not report before Christmas, what steps will be taken to deal with the chaos that will arise in the next month or so in public transport, particularly in Dublin city and other major urban areas?
Some of those issues are not relevant to me, but the Deputy will have seen the announcements relating to the additional service to be provided by the DART and buses over the Christmas period. Traffic issues are being dealt with in two phases, one of which started last week, and there will be a major campaign from 1 December. It is hoped the forum will hold its first meeting in the next few weeks and that it will complete its work within a six month period, probably in May or June.
Will the Taoiseach agree it is very difficult at certain times of the day to get a taxi in Dublin and that there is an urgent need to issue more taxi licences?
I agree. An extra 200 new licences are in the process of being issued. An interim report will be published, dealing with fares, licences and other issues. From my meetings with taximen, they accept that new licences will be issued, and that will be done by agreement. A fortnight ago we discussed other issues such as hackneys, cosies and so on. The issue of late night buses needs to be addressed. That service has worked well in recent years, but the service is provided in a limited number of areas — for example, there is no service on the north side. The time at which late night buses finish must be considered. Up to now the finishing time has been 2 a.m and there is a proposal that the service should run until 3 a.m. Those issues will be addressed, and while all the problems may not be alleviated, it will go some way towards dealing with them.
Will the Taoiseach agree the number of taxi licences has been barely increased since 1978 and that in the meantime demand has doubled, if not trebled? Setting up a forum which will delay decision-making is the last thing we need. Decisions are needed on the issue of new taxi and hackney licences so that we can have a taxi service in Dublin that serves the needs of Dublin people, visitors to the city and tourists from abroad. People may decide not to visit the city again if they cannot get a taxi when they need it.
I am not sure if the Deputy is quoting accurate figures. There have been a number of increases in taxi licences in recent years.
I have the figures.
An additional 200 licences are being issued this year. There is also a hackney service which did not exist previously. In my area in which an office did not exist five years ago there are now 11 offices.
One cannot get a reply from the office after midnight.
I am not aware of that; I am simply saying they are there. The service has massively expanded in recent years, as has the demand. There has been continued argument and disagreement about the reports. A forum is necessary to implement decisions and I hope that will be done. In the meantime the additional 200 licences will be issued. The recommendations of the interim report from Dublin Corporation are being implemented, as are interim measures by other councils with which I am not familiar.
Why will it take six months for the forum to reach a conclusion? That would bring its work virtually to the end of the Dáil term before the summer recess, which means if legislation is to be introduced arising from the report it would be the autumn before it is prepared. We would then have to face another winter before real action is taken. Will the Taoiseach request the forum to report in a shorter period than six months? There is no reason it should not meet every day for the next month and come to a conclusion within a month.
I am familiar with the complexities of this issue. There are two outstanding issues to be resolved. First, the rate of fares needs to be addressed, and that can be done having regard to demand and the cost of operating a taxi, including insurance. Second, and perhaps more intractable, is the question of ownership of the taxi plate. Will the Taoiseach agree there is resistance from many existing plate owners in that any rapid increase in taxi licences will devalue the investment they have made, in some cases with borrowings rather than redundancy lump sums? Consideration must be given to the legitimate concerns of people who have invested money by way of borrowings in acquiring a taxi plate — the going rate is about £80,000 whereas six or seven years ago it was about £40,000. In market economics that could be explained only by increased demand and, consequently, value. Would the Taoiseach consider the idea of short-term plates with a five, ten or 15 year shelf life that would facilitate increased supply to meet demand, but not undermine the property value of those who have made large investments and are currently exercising an understandable veto, if not restraint, on the issuing of extra plates?
Why does the Taoiseach believe we should discuss this issue? Since September l995, when this power was passed to local authorities, I have taken part in at least 200 hours of discussion with the relevant local authorities, taxi men and members of the public and we thrashed out all the issues. Does the Taoiseach accept that by setting up a forum he is rapping the knuckles of local authorities who took a stand and issued 200 licences when nobody else was willing or able to make a decision? Does he accept that in setting up a forum he is cutting across the decision of local authorities to commission a further consultative study, at considerable cost, to get information that is free from political opinion and vested interest on the supply and demand side of the market? What is the forum expected to achieve? Will it replace local authorities and, if so, does the Taoiseach propose to introduce legislation to take power away from local authorities? Are we to proceed on the basis of the consultancy study report which we hope to have early in the new year or wait for the results of further consultation?
As we all agree on the need for more taxis and a better public transport system generally, does the Taoiseach accept that £15,000 for taxi licences in Dublin and Cork is expensive for many new people entering the taxi business? A lower charge could be imposed if it were linked, as mentioned by Deputy Quinn, to a prohibition to resell such licences within a specified period. That would facilitate the provision of more taxis without much delay. Will the Taoiseach ensure the forum takes account of the need to provide onloading or offloading facilities for people with disabilities? While some taxis cater for people with disabilities, taxi ranks cannot cope with their needs.
I call Deputy Finucane.
Can we not have some answers?
Is this a new procedure? On a point of order, anybody who has handled a political meeting will know that when a succession of questions is asked, the person answering them has a tremendous advantage because he or she can choose the questions to answer.
The Taoiseach will answer them all.
If an accumulation of questions is asked, the normal examination that is part of the forensic function of the House will not take place. This is not a good procedure.
The Chair is endeavouring to accommodate as many Deputies as possible. Progress at Question Time has been extraordinarily slow. After the first few supplementary questions are asked, the remaining supplementaries could be grouped.
The Chair is adopting a procedure which is commonplace on Report Stage of a Bill, when Deputies ask questions and the Minister then replies. That is not appropriate on Question Time. Individual Deputies asking supplementary questions are entitled to replies from the Minister or the Taoiseach.
The Chair is endeavouring to accommodate as many Deputies as possible. I do not have a problem with the system. I hoped it might expedite questions so that we could reach more questions.
It expedites matters in the sense that we cover more ground, but not satisfactorily as Deputies do not get individual answers to their questions.
That is up to the Taoiseach or the Minister answering the questions.
From your long experience in politics, Sir, you should know what will happen.
The Deputy who asks a supplementary question will have an opportunity to repeat the question if he or she does not get an answer.
That will not expedite proceedings. Question Time will be turned into a rigmarole.
I have operated this system satisfactorily for some time.
Not for questions to the Taoiseach.
This is the first time the matter has been questioned.
As the leader of the Opposition, I do not accept this procedural exchange. It has not been authorised by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. We should conduct questions to the Taoiseach in the normal way. Deputy De Rossa and I were the only Deputies who tabled questions on this subject and, while it is entirely appropriate that other Deputies should ask supplementaries, all our questions should not be lumped together.
Deputies who tabled the questions have got separate answers. The three Deputies who did not table questions on the matter, but who wished to ask supplementaries, agreed to this procedure. I suggested that we might proceed in this manner and they agreed.
It is easier to get a taxi than an answer to a question.
The Chair is endeavouring to have more time for answers.
If a change of this nature is contemplated regarding questions to the Taoiseach, party leaders should be consulted.
No change is contemplated. The Deputies who tabled the questions had an opportunity to ask supplementaries.
A change is being introduced—
—with the consent of the three Members who offered to ask supplementaries. They certainly did not object to it.
I have been participating in Taoiseach's questions, either as leader of the main Opposition Party or as Taoiseach, for the past seven years. I have been in the House every day during that time and this is the first time this procedure has been adopted. I have not been notified of the change. I would be grateful if the Chair did not pursue this procedure until we have had an opportunity to reflect on it.
I sought the approval of the Deputies offering to ask supplementary questions and they indicated their agreement.
What were they supposed to do?
They did not object.
Even the gardaí would caution people about giving away their rights.
As leader of the Opposition, I do not agree with this procedure. I have been a Member of the House for almost as long as you, Sir, and this is not a good procedural change. I ask you not to pursue it.
The Chair decides the number of supplementaries to be asked. I am entitled to refuse Deputies an opportunity to ask supplementaries if I believe too many have been asked. I am trying to accommodate Members in dealing with as many questions as possible. Perhaps the Committee on Procedure and Privileges could examine how it would be possible for the House to deal with more questions on Question Time. On some days we deal with only five or six. When I was first elected to the House we often dealt with 60 or 70 questions in an hour. Perhaps the Taoiseach will reply to the questions asked by the three Deputies and Deputy Finucane can then ask a question.
I am somewhat on the sidelines in this matter. I spent an hour answering questions this week and we are not yet on Question No. 4 today. I understood Standing Orders to provide that the procedures agreed by the House would apply. I have been dealing with parliamentary questions for a few years and the procedure followed when I was in Opposition was that I asked a question, Deputy Harney asked a question and the then Taoiseach answered it.
That is not correct.
One was allowed to ask two supplementaries and that was it. However, I do not mind which system is used. If the Ceann Comhairle wishes me to follow Deputy Bruton's proposals, I hope it can be done in under six months.
The Taoiseach should ask the forum to do it.
I have asked the forum to do it as soon as possible and it has indicated a period of six months—
He should not give it a deadline.
I asked to have it completed within six months and I hope it will be done sooner than that.
What will be done in six months? What is its standing?
I was replying to Deputy De Rossa's question of about ten minutes ago.
What powers does it have? Will we do nothing until it reports? Are we to ignore other studies?
I was just answering Deputy De Rossa's question. They can only be taken one by one.
That is the reply to three questions.
Am I allowed to answer the three questions?
Yes.
Deputy Quinn's point about the plates is right. It is an important issue because many taxi operators see the plate as their pension. It is a long-term investment and if they lose it they may not have other pension provisions. I will take his suggestion on board and refer it on. The seasonality approach has also been mentioned. That has worked better in the past than it does at present.
It is wide open to abuse.
I accept that. There will be no delay on the fares issue. The corporation has stated that from its preliminary report to which Deputy Mitchell referred, it will make an interim report on fares, licences and the other issues it believes relevant. There is no reason for it to wait; it can go ahead and fully implement action on those issues. The forum is more interested in examining the long-term issues to see how we can develop for the next century, in particular in Dublin, with the increased demand for taxis arising from changes in habits in night life and other issues. It will not be concerned with the short-term issues. I hope that can be done satisfactorily.
With regard to disabilities, certain concessions were made many years ago by the Department of the Environment for taxis so that they would be able to cater for disabled people. They have not worked as intended at the time. I will raise the matter with the Minister for the Environment and Local Government and with the corporation and the councils. It is an issue which has been raised by the bodies concerned with disability which I have met on other matters.
I have been in contact with the local authorities. The work they have done will be taken on board. However, there is not agreement on the issues. Without people being prepared to work the system as a means of public transport we will not move the agenda forward. Agreement with the people involved in the industry on the assessments made is needed. Such agreement does not exist. Nobody wishes to thwart the good work being done and I hope that work will be implemented.
I have spent countless hours at committees in Dublin Corporation over the years dealing with taxi, public transport and road congestion issues, yet they have not changed much. The matter is not as simple as needing more taxis. There are other, more fundamental issues which must be dealt with. Hopefully, the forum comprising decision makers from the interested parties will be able to reach conclusions to move the issues on.
It is like the abortion issue; it will never be addressed.
The Taoiseach pointed out rightly that in the past the issue of licences to provide transport for people with disabilities was not successful. Will he ensure that the allocation of the 200 licences will take consideration of the past failure? We must ensure that as many of the licences as possible are allocated to people with vehicles suitably adapted for people with disabilities. Will the Taoiseach assure the House that the 200 licences will be allocated to bona fide operators? What mechanisms exist to make sure this will be the case?
I will pass on the views of Deputies Finucane and Sargent about the issue of licences to cater for people with disabilities. The formula is a matter for the local authorities. They have already set it down and are following it. It has been used in the past for allocating licences. I have no say in that matter; it is out of the hands of Departments.
Is the Taoiseach aware that whereas the demand for taxis has doubled or trebled since 1978 the number of licences has increased by about 20 per cent in that period? Does he believe there has been a failure on the part of the local authorities in dealing with this issue from the point of view of consultation which has necessitated this forum?
Those figures do not reflect the number of public transport vehicles on the roads. They refer to the licences. They do not cover the taxi firms in almost every community in Dublin city and county operating ten to 30 taxis in the evenings. Taking those figures into account I am not sure of the level of increase. Within councils and between the authorities and users there are large areas of disagreement. The forum is working with them in trying to seek ways of addressing the issues.
