Vol. 488 No. 3
4 Mr. Stagg asked the Minister for the Environment and Local Government the discussions, if any, he or his officials have had with the EU Commission or its representatives regarding charging for domestic water in Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [5901/98]
The draft EU Water Framework Directive presented by the European Commission in February 1997 provided for full cost recovery for water use, including sewerage services and environmental and resource costs, with some exceptions which would allow for a basic level of domestic water use at an affordable price.
Since the outset, the Commission has been advised of Ireland's opposition to the proposed charging provisions as they relate to domestic consumers. I and officials of my Department have continued to reiterate at every appropriate opportunity Ireland's objections in this regard. In July 1997 I wrote to the EU Environment Commissioner indicating this Government's position on the matter and I stated that we would not reconsider the issue of water charges for Irish consumers. I also made our position known to the UK Minister for the Environment in the course of our discussions on the UK's EU Presidency programme.
We have also maintained our opposition to charging domestic consumers in the course of consideration of the Commission's proposals at meetings at official level preparatory to consideration of the proposals by the Council of Environment Ministers. It is my intention to continue to oppose any provisions which seek to reintroduce charging for domestic uses of water in Ireland.
During discussions on 28 November 1997 in relation to EU Regional and Cohesion funding for infrastructural projects, the Commissioner for Regional Affairs referred to the Commission's decision to reduce the Cohesion aid rate for Irish environmental projects from 85 per cent to 80 per cent on account of the decision to abolish charges for public domestic water supplies and referred to the difficulties created vis-à-vis“the polluter pays” principle. In reply, I reaffirmed and explained the Government's policy on the matter.
At the launch of my Department's 1998 water and sewerage investment programme in Killaloe on 2 February 1998, I reaffirmed to the Commission official present in the clearest possible terms the Government's policy on non-charging for domestic water supplies.
I welcome the new position adopted by the Minister's party on water charges. My party and I have been opposed to water charges for some time. The Minister will be aware that the previous Government abolished water charges. Can he assure us that, having regard to what is happening in Europe, the Government will not allow the reimposition of water charges? Is the Government at one on this issue? Are all sections of it opposed to water charges? I am talking about the position of the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, who seemed to imply that she is in favour of such charges. Does that continue to be her position or is the Government at one on the matter?
I am delighted to confirm to the Deputy that the Government has a policy position on water charges. There is only one Government and, unlike the previous one, it does not consist of sections.
If in doubt, leave them out.
The Minister should try telling that to the Tánaiste.
The Deputy said he and his party have always been opposed to water charges. While the Deputy may have held this view for a number of years, it is not clear his party always held that view. It put local authorities in a position where they had to impose these charges.
The Government has not changed its position on water charges. We intend to maintain the position outlined in the programme for Government. Our arguments against water charges are soundly based on the principle of subsidiarity. We believe it is a matter for national Governments to decide whether to impose charges. We are making it clear to the EU that we regard the imposition of charges as in conflict with subsidiary principles.
I have listened carefully to the Minister's reply to the supplementary from Deputy Stagg and the number of times he has told the Commissioner of the Government's opposition to the reintroduction of charges. Will he state categorically that domestic householders will not be charged for the use of water and the provision of sewage treatment services because there seems to be some ambiguity between the Government and the Minister, particularly in his reply to Deputy Stagg, that there might be an imposition of charges by the EU?
Can the Deputy give me a categoric assurance that he will be alive in the morning? I give an absolute, total, categoric assurance that this Government will continue its opposition to any proposals put forward by the EU Commission. If proposals are put forward and pursued we intend to fight them. Proposals were put forward during the time of the previous Government and, in keeping with its policy, I intend to oppose them.
What is the nature of the discussions the Minister has embarked upon with the European Commission? It appears from his reply there have been three discussions since he took office. Is it the Minister's view that the European Commission sees this as the end of the matter? It has reduced from 85 per cent to 80 per cent the amount of grants made available to some programmes. Will there be further reductions in the various grants?
As I do not have the gift of foresight, I cannot say whether this is the end of the matter. Since February 1997 the framework directive on water policy, which introduced the concept of charges for water, has been under discussion. The initial position of the Commission was that: "by 20.10 member states shall ensure full cost recovery for all costs for services provided for water uses overall and by economic sector, broken down at least into households, industry and agriculture". That was its position as outlined on 25 February 1997. There are ongoing discussions on that EU Directive and I expect further discussion on it at the March council meeting.
In respect of the discussions I have had with the Commission, my first contact was in July 1997 when the Commissioner wrote to congratulate me on my appointment as Minister for the Environment and Local Government and requested that I revisit the decision of the previous Government on the position of water charges. I replied thanking the Commissioner for her good wishes and explained fully the Government decision. This was not a discussion but an exchange of letters. The other two occasions have been outlined in the question. When Mr. Verstringer was here and the matter was raised with him at a press conference he made the EU position clear. I availed of the opportunity to reiterate our position in relation to charges. It has been stated by the EU that we are the only member state that does not impose charges for domestic water. That is not the case. In Luxembourg there is opposition in principle to imposing water charges. Its Government ruled out the imposition of water charges three years ago and in Greece there are no charges. We have been arguing on the principle of subsidiarity and from the point of view of social and public health considerations and that it is in conflict with our policy.
Will the Minister agree his position in Europe would be more credible if, for the past 15 years or more, his party had not made all the arguments in favour of water charges and supported their imposition at national and local level? I think the Minister is telling us there is a real threat that the European Union will reimpose water charges, which traditionally have been supported by Fianna Fáil. Fianna Fáil refused to abolish water charges when my party was in Government with it, despite repeated requests. What is the position concerning the draft framework directive on water? If it has to be passed by a majority vote will Ireland have a veto on it and, if passed in its present form, what will be the consequences?
The Deputy has a very selective memory. In case the Deputy cannot recall, his party Leader put local government——
How long ago?
The local government financial services in 1983.
How often has the Deputy's party been in Government since?
The Deputy spent some time in office too.
Deputy Stagg seems to know something of which I am not aware. I received no request at any stage——
Look up the files.
——nor am I aware of any request from the Labour Party when in Government with Fianna Fáil between 1992 and 1994.
The Minister would not be in a position to know that.
The Deputy will recall I negotiated the programme with the Labour Party in 1992 and the matter was not raised or included in the joint programme. If there was such a heavy commitment——
I do not agree. The Minister is mistaken.
I am not mistaken. I can make a copy available to the Deputy. I happen to have a copy of the agreement which was subsequently broken by the Labour Party. When the Labour Party had a majority on the council prior to 1985 there were charges, but these were removed when Fianna Fáil had a majority between 1987 and 1992. The Labour Party was in the ruling group.
The Labour Party had no majority.
The Deputy need not give me any lectures in relation to——
The Minister had plenty of time to deal with it.
Deputy Stagg has a very selective memory.
This is beginning to sound more like the duty free sales fiasco where the pass is sold and the Government continues to oppose the European position. Will the Minister accept that the cost of providing water is already being met by taxpayers through the general taxation system? Is it not a matter for the Government to decide rather than the European Union seeking to intervene in the manner in which the State collects taxes and recovers charges?
That is our position. I agree with the Deputy that it is a matter for us to decide, in keeping with the principle of subsidiarity, how people should pay for water. The only sector not charged for water is the domestic sector. We have made this point strongly——
Not strongly enough. The Minister does not sound too enthusiastic. He should lighten up.
I prefer to go on results rather than rhetoric.
Duty free sales is a good example.
We are trying to ensure water charges are not imposed on the domestic sector. I am satisfied we are doing a good job.
