Richard Bruton
Question:7 Mr. R. Bruton asked the Minister for Education and Science the reason for his decision not to extend cover for fees or maintenance to private third level colleges. [7640/98]
Other Questions. - Higher Education Grants.
Under the free fees initiative, the State meets the tuition fees of eligible students who are attending full-time undergraduate courses which must generally be of at least two years' duration at approved colleges. Over 37,000 students benefited under the initiative in 1996-7 at a cost to the Exchequer of £77 million in 1997. Any extension of the initiative would have to be considered in the light of overall resource constraints. In this regard, tax relief is available at the standard rate on fees paid to private colleges in accordance with the provisions of section 6 of the Finance Act, 1995, and section 15 of the Finance Act, 1996. My priority is to increase the number of places available in publicly funded colleges. This priority was delivered on this year and will be again in the next academic year.
Legal proceedings have been instituted in the case of Patrick Jordan junior, Patrick Jordan senior and Raymond Kearns v. the Minister for Education, Ireland and the Attorney General, regarding the non-inclusion of Portobello College within the free fees initiative. As the matter will be before the courts I do not consider it appropriate to make any further statement on the matter.
With regard to the question of including private colleges within the scope of the higher education grants scheme, the scheme operates under the Local Authorities (Higher Education Grants) Acts, 1968 to 1992. An approved institution is defined to mean university, university college or other institution of higher education in so far as it provides a course or courses of not less than two years' duration, being a course or courses which the Minister for Education and Science approves for the time being for the purposes of the Acts.
The annual higher education grants scheme which I approve sets out a list of approved institutions for the purposes of the scheme. The approved institutions mainly comprise the publicly funded third level institutions. However, a number of religious and other institutions have been admitted to the scheme over the years.
I am engaged in an ongoing review of all aspects of higher education grants, including the eligibility rules and the administration of the scheme. In this regard, the scope of these schemes is being considered as part of an ongoing review of the existing arrangements. This review will be completed in advance of the 1998 student support schemes. Any extension of the existing arrangements in relation to grants can only be considered in the light of available resources and in the context of competing demands within the education sector.
When the Minister was Fianna Fáil spokesperson on Education he made a commitment that in Government he would introduce grants for those in private colleges. Will he confirm that he made such a commitment in a letter of 15 May 1997?
In a manifesto on third level education which Fianna Fáil published we commit ourselves to examining closely the equity of the case made by private third level colleges to have their students' fees paid by the State and to look at the issue of bonding. We also made it clear that a secure system of bonding "will be made obligatory by Fianna Fáil to ensure that students who pay their fees to private colleges complete the course and obtain the certification they have applied for. "
On a point of order can you exercise restraint, Sir, on the Minister and Minister of State in the length of their answers? Time is rationed here.
I accept that.
The nature of their replies is creating difficulties in that regard.
Unfortunately the Chair has no control over ministerial replies. The only control the Chair has is in ensuring that questions are asked. I would ask Ministers generally to take note of the point that there are days when we do not get through as many questions as the House would like.
I accept that, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I regret Deputy Bruton's intervention. From the outset today I have facilitated interventions by Deputy Bruton, particularly on the first question. I gave way on a number of occasions when I had not completed my reply. I do not intend to continue too long other than to say, in addition to what I have said, that in the letter mentioned by the Deputy we did deal with the question of equity within the third level system. In our manifesto we made it clear that the implementation of our third level policy, particularly in relation to fees, grants, places and so forth, was subject to the availability of resources. We made that clear both at the launch of our manifesto in May 1997 and at the subsequent press conference.
Is it not the case that Fianna Fáil made a very explicit written commitment——
I would prefer if the Deputy asked a question, for the very reason the Deputy himself is concerned about.
Was there a very clear commitment, in a letter written to private colleges, that Fianna Fáil would provide grants? Is it correct that the Minister ruled out honouring such a commitment in an interview with a journalist? Further, does the Minister not agree that it is a serious inequity that people who go to private colleges for want of places in public sector colleges cannot avail of support for fees and maintenance while those who are lucky enough to get a place in publicly funded colleges, at far more expense to the taxpayer overall, get such support?
If the Deputy reads our programme for Government he will see what our priorities are. I defy him to come up with an example of a previous Government that fulfilled commitments in as short a space of time as we fulfilled the commitments in our programme for Government, particularly relating to the third level sector. Our key priority was the provision of places. This year alone we created an additional 7,300 places between post-leaving certificate colleges, universities and institutes of technology. That is a remarkable achievement in such a short space of time. The places comprise an additional 2,000 in post-leaving certificate colleges, an additional 2,600 in universities and an additional 2,000 in institutes of technology. That is our number one priority.
The second major priority relates to post-leaving certificate students in ensuring that they will be in a position to avail of the higher education grants scheme. That has significant resource implications. I and my officials have met with the private colleges since I came to office. A number of issues have to be addressed. One key issue is that of mission drift. In allocating resources, the State must ensure that the nation is served by the programmes being followed in colleges. We must avoid what happened in the United Kingdom and in the US where colleges drifted significantly from their core function. We are determined that the technological sector will meet its mission of responding to the needs of industry and business and, likewise, that universities will retain their core mission of academic development and of meeting the needs of the wider economy.
There are other issues pertaining to equity. The bonding issue is crucial to equity in terms of participation in private sector colleges. There would be a very serious problem in allocating public funding to institutions that we are not sure will survive. The whole issue of bonding is critical in that regard.
Let me repeat the three supplementary questions I asked, none of which was addressed in the Minister's lengthy reply. Will he confirm that he did make a clear commitment that Fianna Fáil in Government would introduce grants for private colleges in the letter in question which is quoted in The Irish Independent of the same date? Will he confirm that in an interview with a journalist on 3 March, the day before, he indicated that he would not honour that commitment? Does the Minister not agree that his decision is inequitable in that he is refusing to grant equal entitlement to students who have qualified for a place in a private college to maintenance support and fees support on a means tested basis purely because they are going to a private and not a public college?
I have ruled out the extension of free fees to students attending third level private colleges. I do not have the resources to allocate fees to those students.
I asked about grants.
The Deputy asked about fees, and we have ruled that out. In relation to equity, I do not accept the Deputy's simplistic thesis. A range of issues have to be teased out and resolved in the context of equity. The bottom line is to make sure that we have enough places available in the public sector to enable students to pursue courses in institutes of technology, in universities and in post-leaving certificate colleges. Because of our commitment to maintenance grants in the post-leaving certificate sector in particular, the numbers in that sector have increased significantly, and there is greater retention of numbers on PLC courses this year over previous years. We did make commitments in advance of the election. We made it clear in our manifesto that those commitments would be subject to the availability of resources and that there would have to be clear prioritisation. We outlined the priorities in the programme for Government. They are increased places in public sector institutions and maintenance grants for post-leaving certificate students who were the most disadvantaged in the system up to now under the Government of which Deputy Bruton was a member. We can accommodate only so much in any given programme. In our programme for Government we have clearly set out what we consider the priorities to be.
Would the Minister not agree that Fianna Fáil pursued votes at the last general election on the basis of a clear commitment on which the Minister is now reneging? Would he not agree that that is enhancing the degree of cynicism about the approach he as Minister and politics in general is taking to issues such as this?
I would not accept that. There are very few votes in this issue. Our aim was not the pursuit of votes but to develop a national strategy for participation in third level education. I will not play around with taxpayers' money. I have made the priorities clear. For the first time this autumn over 100,000 pupils were attending Irish universities. We have broken the 100,000 barrier because of initiatives taken by this Government and because of the priority we gave to providing additional places in universities and institutes of technology. We increased places this year by 7,300 right across the board. That is a commitment to people and to students. We have engaged with private third level colleges about a range of issues they have put before us. We will continue to meet with them, unlike the Deputy's Administration. We will have ongoing discussions on the various issues that arise from time to time, not least the issue of bonding and the issue of a national qualifications framework.
I am confused. Is the Minister saying he did not make a written promise to extend free fees to private colleges? Is he saying he made no such promise?
We wrote a letter to the private colleges, outlining a commitment to achieving equity.