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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 20 Oct 1998

Vol. 495 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Committee of Public Accounts: Motion.

I move:

That, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, the Committee of Public Accounts is hereby instructed to examine and report to Dáil Éireann upon:

(a) the circumstances surrounding the payment of approximately £14 million by AIB to the Revenue Commissioners in settlement of outstanding liabilities for DIRT including, in particular, the state of knowledge of directors and officers of AIB in relation to the extent of its compliance with its statutory obligations and the nature and extent of the disclosure made by it to the Commissioners; and

(b) the use of non-resident accounts in the banking system for the purpose of tax evasion, the information known or available to the Revenue Commissioners and the Central Bank concerning this practice and the steps taken to bring it to an end.

May I share my time with Deputy Broughan?

Is that agreed? Agreed.

During much of the late 1980s and early 1990s we in the Labour Party and many like us were greatly exercised by issues like corruption, abuse of power, tax evasion and the like. My former party leader, Deputy Spring, made countless speeches in the Dáil criticising the existence of golden circles and old boys networks. In doing that, we were reflecting a deep unease in society, a feeling that Irish society was basically unfair, that some people were creaming it off at the expense of others and that there was one law for the rich and one law for the poor.

Taxation was and still is the core of the issue for many people. PAYE workers have long believed that they are treated unfairly by the taxation system. It is now nearly 20 years since hundreds of thousands of workers took to the streets of Dublin and cities throughout the country to protest against the system which extracted and continues to extract every last penny of liability from PAYE workers but seems incapable of bringing the richest in our society to account. In truth, we did not know how right we were.

The revelations of the past fortnight have done immense damage to the financial institutions of this State. We now know beyond a shadow of doubt that tens of thousands of people actively and deliberately engaged in wholesale tax evasion for a period of time in the late 1980s and early 1990s. We also know that two of the largest banks in this State connived in and facilitated tax evasion.

Colleagues in this House have said on previous occasions that these revelations have evoked a significant level of anger among the public. That is right, but something even more important is happening. A large number of people are not just angry, they are also cynical and resigned. It is important that we in this House acknowledge this basic harsh truth. That truth is that very many people are angry with what happened but they have little or no confidence that the Government and this House will do anything to put it right. In that sense, these revelations and this crisis are a problem not only for the banking sector; it is an important test for our democratic institutions and, in particular, for this House. It is a test which we cannot and must not fail.

There are at least three things which we must seek to do. First, we must ensure that all the facts are put before the public. Second, we must satisfy ourselves and the public that proper accounting has been given and that the matter has been brought to an end in a way that is fair to all concerned. Finally, we need to be sure that nothing of this kind is going on as we speak and we need to put in place structures and institutions which are capable of ensuring and charged to ensure that nothing of this kind happens again. All of this must be done speedily and in a cost effective way.

The motion before us is strictly limited in what we are seeking to do. We have been advised, and we know the committee has been advised, that it has already strayed beyond its normal terms of reference. The role of the Committee of Public Accounts is to scrutinise the way in which public funds are spent. It has no role, on the face of it, in carrying out an investigation of the kind in which it has embarked. I applaud the committee and, in particular, its chairperson for taking the initiative in dealing with this issue. The fact, however, remains that the committee has currently no legal power to deal with the issue. In tabling this motion this evening, we, in the Labour Party, are seeking to play our part in putting that matter right.

Dáil Éireann is entitled to charge any committee of the House with any task it chooses to give to it. Since the Committee of Public Accounts has no inherent power to deal with an issue of this kind, it is necessary that the Dáil should delegate that power to the Committee of Public Accounts or some other committee. Our motion seeks to do just that. In particular, and without going into the details of the motion, we are seeking to instruct the committee to examine and report to the Dáil having considered, in the course of its examination, the appropriation accounts of the Revenue Commissioners and the position in relation to outstanding liabilities for DIRT on the part of AIB.

The Minister will be aware that the original text of the motion was placed on the Order Paper last Tuesday. We, particularly my party leader, Deputy Quinn, indicated to the Taoiseach during the Order of Business last week that we were willing to talk to him and his officials about the wording of any motion. I welcome the fact the Government has agreed to a revised motion which is now before the House. The matter is still one of considerable urgency and that is why we, in the Labour Party, took the opportunity to raise it during our Private Members' time this week.

The Committee of Public Accounts has already strayed beyond its normal remit. So far, it has done so with the voluntary co-operation of the individuals concerned. However, it does not require much foresight to see that there are significant problems looming on the horizon. The moment the committee starts getting too close to the bone, the moment it hits a raw nerve, as sure as night follows day a High Court injunction will be sought to stop it in its tracks. The road block is there for all to see. It is time for this House to act promptly, anticipate the problem and solve it as soon as possible. Let me spell out the position in even more clear-cut terms. I and the Labour Party believe that it would be very unwise for the committee to hold any further hearings until such time as its investigation is put on a sound legal basis. This can only be done by passing this motion this evening.

This is an important matter of precedent. It is by no means the first time the committee or any other committee has undertaken work of this kind, but it is one of the first. I had the experience of being on the committee which, broadly speaking, inquired into the collapse of the Fianna Fáil-Labour Government in 1994 and early 1995. It was, to say the least, an interesting experience and much of the material before the committee was of considerable public interest. However, it became very clear to us at an early stage that the committee was seriously circumscribed in what it could do. We were advised by the then senior counsel, Gerry Durkan, who was adviser to the committee, that it would be unwise, for example, for us to make findings of fact. It seems clear that advice still holds and I know it has been repeated in advice given to the committee this week. The committee in that sense can only offer an opinion but that is not to say it does not nonetheless have a seriously important role in bringing out the facts and laying them before the committee and the Dáil and indirectly, therefore, before the public.

I suggest to the House that when we consider how we go about this business this week we need to have an eye to the future. We need to establish the role of the Oireachtas and its committees — not necessarily the Committee of Public Accounts — in speedily investigating matters of public importance in a way which brings out the facts and which is cost effective. We must make it clear that we have learned from the experience of the beef tribunal and subsequent tribunals and that there is a better way of doing business, a way which establishes the legitimacy of this House in investigating matters of public interest.

It is not just sufficient that we give terms of reference to the committee to allow it to do that work. Further legislation will also be necessary. I understand the committee will look at the possibility of having investigative work carried out on its behalf by another agency or body, be it the Comptroller and Auditor General or somebody else. That too will require a change in legislation and I am happy to confirm on behalf of the Labour Party that we will facilitate the passage of such legislation.

I understand the committee intends to hold additional public hearings and is only right and fair that it should do so. It is important that committees are fair and are seen to be so in the way in which they do their business. The Committee of Public Accounts must give an opportunity to those whose names and activities have been mentioned during the course of its deliberation to give their side of the story. It must also give an opportunity to representatives of banks other than AIB to clear their name and to indicate to the committee and the public whether activities of a questionable nature were going on in their banks during the late 1980s and early 1990s. Directors of AIB made it clear last week that they consider this problem to be an industry-wide one. The public is entitled to know if this is the case. For their part, the other banks are entitled to an opportunity to put the record straight. The committee must decide whether it requires further powers of investigation or discovery to facilitate additional hearings. It appears inevitable that such powers will be required. The Labour Party will facilitate the provision of such powers.

Throughout this matter, we must remain focused on what we are seeking to achieve. In the first instance we need information. We need answers to some of the questions which have arisen in the past fortnight. We need to know in simple terms who is telling the truth. We need to be told whether there was a settlement of the bank's liability for DIRT. We need to know what information was given by the bank to the Revenue Commissioners. We need to know what understanding, if any, existed between the bank and the Revenue Commissioners about previous liabilities.

We need to know whether or to what extent the Central Bank and the Government at the time knew what was happening in Allied Irish Bank and the other banks. We should be told what action, if any, was taken by the bank or the Revenue Commissioners to make the individual holders of bogus accounts responsible for their actions. We must be told whether any settlement was made with other banks or financial institutions in relation to the liability for DIRT for the period in question.

Once the committee has received all this information, it will be a matter for it and its members to draw conclusions and make recommendations. I do not intend or wish to pre-empt those conclusions but the least to which the public is entitled is an assurance that those abuses have ended. The least the public will demand is that all arrears of taxes will be paid and those responsible for tax evasion in the past will be brought to book in as much as that can be done.

It is important for the future that we establish structures and mechanisms to ensure, in so far as it is possible, that something like this does not happen again. These events, and events earlier in the year in National Irish Bank, demonstrate major problems regarding the way in which we seek to regulate and supervise financial institutions. In response, I understand the Government announced today its intention to set up a single regulator or a financial supervisory authority.

Much of the debate about this issue has been badly informed. There is a great deal of fuzzy thinking about it. I wish to set out the Labour Party's position as clearly as possible. The Central Bank is responsible for the prudential supervision and regulation of banks. It derives that power from the Central Bank Acts. These Acts were amended as recently as a few months ago to deal with the implications of EMU. However, it is important to note that the power of the Dáil to define the role of the Central Bank in the commercial banking sector is seriously limited by the European banking directives issued over the past ten years.

The European Monetary Institute, the EMI, which is the precursor to the ECB, has set out clearly the role of the Central Bank and that of national central banks in other countries in relation to the banking sector. As the Minister is aware, we have little or no flexibility in giving the bank additional functions or in taking away some of its existing functions in prudential supervision. The Central Bank has no function or role in consumer rights, nor does it have a role in the collection of taxes. More importantly, it cannot be given such a role because the Dáil is prohibited by the European treaties and the ECB from doing so.

It is vital that we are clear about this aspect. Matters such as the maintenance of huge numbers of bogus non-resident accounts and the non-payment of DIRT or any other tax are of concern to the Central Bank only in as much as they infringe on the stability of the banking sector or any particular bank. They are not concerned with those issues as such. It is fair to criticise the Central Bank for not looking at the matters which have been raised in the context of the overall prudential supervision of the banking sector or the stability of a particular bank, in this case the AIB. However, it is not reasonable to criticise the Central Bank for not exercising powers which it does not have. It is not fair to criticise the bank and its employees because it did not exercise a function which it did not have and which the Dáil did not and could not have given it.

This problem is common to all EU states and almost all of them have moved to fill the gap in regulation by setting up a unitary regulator or a financial supervisory authority. This regulator should look after the interests of the consumers both individually and collectively. The regulator should have the power and the duty to notify the Revenue Commissioners and any other relevant authority of irregularities it comes across. It should not be bound by the strictures of confidentiality which currently govern the activities of the Central Bank.

The financial services sector is expanding all the time. Building societies and credit unions are now providing a much expanded range of services. The number of financial advisers and intermediaries is multiplying all the time. It is likely that economic and monetary union will make the entire sector even more competitive at least in the first instance with all the risks and opportunities that implies. As matters stand, virtually all the providers of financial services, including banks, building societies, insurance companies, investment intermediaries, advisers, the Stock Exchange and others, are subject to independent and separate regulation and supervision.

It is only fair to those concerned to acknowledge that the system of regulation is infinitely better now than it was five or ten years ago. However, so too are the challenges to the system. Other EU countries have dealt with the problems that have arisen by establishing a separate financial supervisory authority. The former Select Committee on Enterprise and Employment considered this issue several years ago and recommended the establishment of such an authority in Ireland. Earlier this year the Committee on Finance and the Public Service considered the proposal in the context of the revelations about NIB and others. This committee also concluded that a single regulator was the best way forward. The arguments are persuasive and conclusive. The expertise built up over a number of years in the separate regulatory authorities can be pooled and shared between the individuals concerned.

I do not intend to deal in detail with the argument for a regulatory authority. The Minister is aware of it and I assume from his announcement today that it has been essentially conceded. However, I do not understand why it is necessary to wait a further six months before it is possible to implement the decision. There are plenty of other precedents in other parts of Europe. In conjunction with other members of the Committee on Finance and the Public Service, I had the opportunity to visit several Nordic countries and Germany in early summer. We held detailed discussions with representatives of the equivalent authorities in those countries and it is fair to state that we were impressed by what we found and persuaded of the case to introduce such an authority. The experience exists in other countries of introducing authorities and regulators of this nature. We can learn a great deal from that experience.

I noticed that the newspapers this morning suggested that we would follow the British precedent in this. However, the Minister is aware that the British precedent has been in place for only a relatively short period. The British Chancellor of the Exchequer introduced it only a few months ago. It occasionally frustrates and surprises me that we appear to be so quick and anxious to borrow from British practices, in this case a recently established practice, rather than look further afield at precedents and experience that is embedded a great deal longer.

I was struck and interested by the comments of the Governor of the Central Bank last week. We need to be clear and fair about the role of the bank as it is currently constituted. There are many people in the Central Bank who have experience and expertise gained over the years in the business of supervising financial institutions, principally banks. It is obvious that this experience and expertise should continue to be available to the State in seeking to do this job in the future. In the past, the business of supervision and regulation has been carried out almost exclusively by public servants and it is only right that this should be so. I expect that it will continue to be the case. However, it would also be useful if we could benefit from the experience of people who have worked in financial institutions in the industry in seeking to regulate them in the future. To that end, the supervisory authority may seek to draw from the experience of the private sector as well as the expertise which currently exists in the public sector and the Central Bank.

The experience of the past two weeks has not been good for banking and financial institutions. However, if we handle the challenge competently and properly and deal with the problems in an honest and upfront manner, the system as a whole may be better for the experience. The people who made the revelations have done us all a service and they have provided us with an opportunity. They have told us what we were entitled to know and they have given us an opportunity to expose the weaknesses in the system in a way which presents no threat to it. If we can get it right and rise to the challenge, the banking and taxation systems and our democratic institutions will be all the better for the experience.

This motion is important for the House, for politicians and, most importantly, for our constitutents who are outraged by the allegations in recent weeks. If passed, this motion will remove any doubt that the Committee of Public Accounts may not be acting within its powers in its investigation of the avoidance of DIRT on supposedly non-resident accounts by customers of AIB and all financial institutions. As a former member of the Committee of Public Accounts I congratulate the Comptroller and Auditor General, John Purcell, the chairman, Deputy Mitchell, and the members for the initiatives they have taken.

The Labour Party is acting in response to the mood of massive public outrage. Our motion represents the first step towards putting in place appropriate measures to allow a full and proper investigation of all the revelations which have outraged the public. Like the Minister, I too felt this outrage during the past two weeks in my constituency and in Cork South Central where I met people who campaigned by way of tax marches of the early 1980s, when we had one of the highest tax rates in Europe. The people are outraged by what they see as double standards in the collection of taxation and the allegations that have been made. Those who suffered from the vicious cutbacks in health, education and social welfare between 1987 and 1991 are astounded at the effrontery of the double standards in taxation which have been revealed.

Many journalists have pointed out the severity with which the legal system dealt with a handbag snatcher and someone who defrauded a bank of £500 and they have contrasted this with what they view as criminal acts, based on the prima facie evidence given to the Committee of Public Accounts, and are looking to this House and the Committee of Public Accounts to take action.

Some months ago I asked the Minister to re-examine a study on the black economy carried out by a professor of economics at Linz University, based on money flows and methods of calculating GDP. This study estimated that the black economy could be up to 16 per cent larger than thought. However, the only response from the Department of Finance was the usual bland statements that this was not the case, that the House had nothing to worry about and that Members should return to their regular work.

The work of the Committee of Public Accounts is critically important. It would be naive to deny that there is a suspicion among the public that politicians are not determined to get to the bottom of this affair. It is in our collective interest to dispel these fears by supporting the committee and its work.

The report of the beef tribunal and attempts by the Committee of Public Accounts to shadow some of the allegations made at that tribunal have highlighted the public's concern at the existence of a golden circle. There is a fear that, during the last decade, at least one senior politician was bailed out by the bank which is the subject of the current allegations.

The motion before the House does not cut across the options open to the Committee of Public Accounts or its chairman. If the Committee of Public Accounts believes that an agent should act on its behalf on the compilation of evidence, the Labour Party will play a constructive role in ensuring that it receives the appropriate power. However, we will not be limited to any request for additional powers made by the committee and we will seek to strengthen those powers if we consider it necessary.

I was proud to be a Labour Member of the Committee of Public Accounts during the four and half years of the 27th Dáil. The then committee was well assisted by the outstanding services of the former and current Comptrollers and Auditor General. Before the passing of the compellability of witnesses legislation, brought to the fore by the Labour Party, the Committee of Public Accounts had no power to demand the attendance of persons or the production of documents. In cases of fairly serious fraud against the State we had little or no power to carry out the kind of investigation which could have led to a detailed memorandum for the Director of Public Prosecutions or the National Bureau of Fraud Investigations. To his credit, the comptroller has carried out many value for money reports, some of which have made interesting comments on the financial and economic habits of this House and State agencies.

The Committee of Public Accounts was hamstrung when dealing with the rip-off of intervention stocks and the massive tax evasion which took place in the beef industry. Our proceedings could not even be broadcast because our minutes took months and sometimes years to be approved by the House. However, in one article Fintan O'Toole claimed to have seen the Committee of Public Accounts on television. To my knowledge our proceedings were not broadcast until recently. The Labour Party proposes that this archaic system be brought to an end to ensure that the committee becomes, as it was intended to be, an investigative body with real teeth. This is why we will be proposing strengthening legislation for the Committee of Public Accounts during the coming week.

There is a clear obligation on the House to get to the bottom of the conflicting evidence presented to the Committee of Public Accounts in the past few days. At the centre of the dispute is whether a £14 million settlement was reached between the Revenue Commissioners and AIB in respect of a liability of £100 million. Any such settlement which involved AIB, a financial institution bailed out by the State only five years before, would be unacceptable. Many Members of this House believed in the mid 1980s that that bail out should only have been permitted on the basis that the State took a stake in AIB. AIB could and should pay its full liability as should any other body engaging in such practices.

The conflicting and irreconcilable accounts given to the Committee of Public Accounts by Mr. Tom Mulcahy and Mr. Dermot Quigley are truly remarkable. It is crucial that the only written record of the meeting between the AIB and the Revenue Commissioners seems to be a memo written by Mr. Jimmy O'Mahony, AIB's group taxation manager. The memo refers to all financial institutions putting their houses in order with no retrospection prior to 5 April 1990, and states that any irregularities discovered after 30 June 1991 will be subject to prosecution.

At the time, the Revenue Commissioners raised concerns about the practice of branch managers accepting declarations on bogus non-resident accounts, and at AIB's alleged ability to use offshore facilities in a possibly illegal way. Apparently Mr. Mac Carthaigh of the Revenue Commissioners wrote to Mr. Jimmy O'Mahony following the disputed meeting and stated that all bogus offshore accounts discovered after 30 June 1991 would be the subject of a DIRT payment without penalty and retrospection. However, Dermot Quigley, Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners, vehemently denies that his officials negotiated any sweet deal with AIB in 1991, let alone £14 million in settlement of an alleged tax liability of £100 million.

On the Revenue side, the key point relates to the power Mr. Mac Carthaigh or any other commissioner had to negotiate taxes legally owed to this State. The income tax Acts in force from 1991-3 clearly deemed it an offence to make an incorrect statement or fraudulent declaration. As the distinguished journalist, Mr. Vincent Browne, correctly estimated under the 1967 Act, the liability of £100 million calculated by Mr. Jimmy O'Mahony would incur a payment with penalties by AIB of £200,000,100.

On the evidence given by Mr. Tom Mulcahy to the committee, the obvious question that arises is why he and his officials could not estimate the number of bogus accounts in the relevant period. I understand members of the committee attempted unsuccessfully to elicit that information. Nor did Mr. Mulcahy address the issue of the missing 17,000 non-resident account certificates outlined in the audit material published in Magill. Indeed, much of the tenor of Mr. Mulcahy's statement to the Committee of Public Accounts is very disturbing. I am thinking of phrases such as “forward looking,”- used in relation to what were clearly legal obligations and liabilities and criminal offences taking place across the industry — settlements being reached “without penalty or publication” and “a pragmatic solution to a sensitive issue”. Off the cuff estimates were outlined in regard to the 53,000 bogus accounts. Can it be true that, as AIB representatives claimed, the bank did not make any profit from this when much of the money was clearly channelled to another branch of the organisation? Was it not the case in 1991 that bank officials known by the Revenue Commissioners to be in any way aiding and abetting the making of false tax declarations could be prosecuted under section 94 of the Finance Act, 1983 with the possible imposition of fines up to £10,000 and a jail term of five years? Why did this not happen?

The Committee of Public Accounts must resolve all these questions. If and when that occurs, a clear signal should go out from this House that no stone will be left unturned in the State's efforts to recover its money. If there is evidence that bankers or others colluded or assisted in defrauding the Exchequer, they must face the full rigours of the law. It is difficult to believe there was not widespread collusion in the banking system in regard to the establishment of bogus non-resident accounts by AIB and other banks. I wrote to the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation to ask whether such a practice constitutes fraud against the taxpayer. The Minister may be interested to know that I received a reply this morning from a Superintendent Glacken in which he indicates that he is waiting for a formal complaint about the matter. He states:

Should you have evidence of a breach of the criminal law and make same available to us, we will conduct a full and thorough investigation.

As members of the media have pointed out in recent weeks, these are matters for the Bureau of Fraud Investigation. There cannot be two standards, one for the 800,000 people who do their best to meet their income tax liabilities and another for a golden circle of cute hoors.

In their evidence to the committee, AIB representatives stated they were only now computing their DIRT liability for the relevant years and disputed the figures of the internal auditor, Mr. Spollen. They maintain the liability is far less than £100 million. Perhaps this is the case, but AIB must give a firm commitment to pay the amount due when they have computed it.

Some of the evidence submitted to the Committee of Public Accounts was disingenuous in the extreme. Mr. Mulcahy informed the committee that the very existence of the banking system was in danger at that time. The Minister took the same line in a radio interview on Sunday morning in which he focused on the issue of stability and relegated the issues of probity and fairness way down the list. AIB disputed the £100 million figure, alleging that the actual figure was much lower. A much lower figure would not, of course, pose such a threat. Whatever way one looks at the matter, the circle cannot be squared.

The Revenue Commissioners also have questions to answer. As a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, I raised the issue of non-compliance with the taxation code year after year, but was informed there was little or nothing to worry about. This has proven not to be the case. I have with me the 1992 Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in which the then chairman of the Revenue Commissioners stated that if any investigation undertaken by the Revenue Commissioners revealed that a taxpayer had failed to disclose relevant information resulting in underpayment of tax, legal proceedings could be instigated. The report also outlines various types of liabilities. There is no mention of the fact that at the time the matter of the disturbing amounts of tax owed was being raised, the chairman, in defiance of the committee to some extent, made an outrageous settlement with AIB. In a later report in 1994, I was struck by the fact that outstanding taxes were estimated to amount to £2.2 billion. Once again, no reference appears to major liabilities by AIB or any other banks. An incredible double standard seems to have been in operation.

I will remind the House of the serious criminal offences with which we are dealing. Any person who knowingly aids, abets, assists, incites or induces another person to make or deliver knowingly or willfully any indirect returns, statements or accounts in connection with any tax is guilty of an offence for which there is a maximum penalty of five years' imprisonment.

The revelations made in recent years in connection with the conduct of tax and public affairs in this country, particularly in the 1980s, have been increasingly disturbing. The extent of noncompliance with tax laws by many of the State's citizens is an affront to the vast majority of compliant taxpayers, especially within the PAYE sector. Yet the 1980s and early 1990s, a period synonymous with greed, have given rise to three tribunals, a number of high court investigations and the current investigation by the PAC. Those of us who argued that something serious was amiss in Irish society were often decried as whingers and moaners. Sadly, we have been proven right. Thus far, we have failed to bring anyone fully to book for these actions and that is damaging the reputation of politicians and, more importantly, of politics itself. I think it was Dick Walsh of The Irish Times who said that when politics is damaged, it is those who believe in politics most who suffer most. Like many Deputies, I count myself among such people.

The Committee of Public Accounts is charged with a difficult task. However, it also has an opportunity to restore the reputation of our profession among the general public. That is an opportunity this House cannot afford to miss. My party tabled this motion because we believe it is imperative we act with a sense of urgency. This measure is but one move which must be taken immediately and does not cut across the granting of any other legal powers the committee may request. The substance of the motion, as agreed by the Government, differs little from motion No. 49a on today's original Order Paper. It gives the committee the competence to invoke its compellability powers under the 1997 legislation although that Act will need to be amended to allow compellability in regard to issues concerning taxation. The agent chosen by the committee, if it decides to use one, may also need to be given powers of discovery along the lines provided to High Court inspectors. This too will probably require legislation. In regard to the cost of these investigations and any other costs necessitated by a Garda investigation, I have proposed that the Minister should seek to ensure the banks themselves pay for this. It might, if necessary, be done through a renewal of the bank levy based on the estimated cost of getting to the bottom of the matter. This is what the public wants. I support my colleague's comments in relation to the financial regulator.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Ardagh.

I emphasise to the House that the Government is fully conscious of the public concerns about the recent developments in regard to DIRT collection and in consequence would like to assist the Committee of Public Accounts as much as possible in continuing its investigative role in regard to this matter. I congratulate the committee on the rapid progress it has already made in its investigations. It has moved with commendable speed to follow up a matter of major public concern.

I understand the committee is considering whether it needs any additional powers to pursue its investigations fully. It is also considering whether legislative changes are needed for this purpose, which could involve increasing the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General. In light of the committee's ongoing deliberations on this important issue, I look forward to its conclusions and recommendations on what legislative or other changes it sees as necessary to finalise its work.

Before discussing the role of the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General, I wish to outline why DIRT was introduced and how it has operated. I also wish to set out the position in regard to the powers of the Revenue Commissioners and the Central Bank. Prior to the introduction of deposit interest retention tax in 1986, banks paid interest gross to their depositors without deduction of tax but were obliged to report to Revenue any case in which interest exceeding £50 in a year arose. Building societies, in contrast, deducted tax on the interest due to their depositors and shareholders under a composite rate arrangement and were not obliged to make returns of interest to Revenue. At that time banks did not have to return details of deposit interest over £50 where the account holder served a notice on the bank declaring on a form, known as Form F, that the beneficial owner of the interest on the account was not ordinarily resident in the State.

However, under section 17 of the Finance Act, 1983, a bank was obliged to require an affidavit from a person claiming non-resident status where the bank was not satisfied that the person was non-resident. These claims and affidavits were to be retained and made available to the Revenue Commissioners if requested.

A budget day financial resolution in 1986 which was incorporated into Chapter IV of Part I of the Finance Act, 1986, introduced deposit interest retention tax. The introduction of DIRT was intended to harmonise the tax treatment of deposit interest across the range of financial institutions, to increase tax revenue and to counter tax evasion more effectively. With effect from 6 April 1986, a retention tax, at the standard rate of income tax which was then 35 per cent, was deducted at source out of interest paid or credited on bank and building society deposits in the beneficial ownership of residents. The composite tax arrangement with the building societies was terminated from that date.

DIRT requires financial institutions to deduct tax at source from deposit interest earned by individuals who are tax resident in Ireland. Between 1986 and 1993 the rate of deduction was the standard income tax rate and DIRT was deducted in two half yearly instalments in October and April. From 1986 onwards banks and building societies were treated in the same way, both deducting tax from the interest paid to residents, and the obligation to notify Revenue of deposit interest was done away with.

Companies could offset the DIRT retained against liability to corporation tax. In addition to DIRT, between 1986 and 1993 individuals liable at the higher rates of income tax were liable to tax on their gross interest at the difference between the standard rate and the appropriate higher rate and were obliged to declare this to Revenue when completing their tax returns. In other words, depositors faced an income tax liability at their marginal rate in respect of the interest income, with credit for the DIRT already paid.

DIRT does not apply where the account holder is non-resident and makes a formal declaration to that effect to the financial institution. The law requires that the declaration should contain, inter alia, the name, address and country of tax residence of the person entitled to the deposit interest. The financial institution has a duty under the legislation to satisfy itself that a deposit is exempt from DIRT before it pays any interest gross. To qualify for exemption the deposit taker has to hold a valid declaration in respect of the deposit showing the name and address outside the State of the person beneficially entitled to the interest. The declaration is made available to the Revenue Commissioners on request.

The advent of EU-wide capital liberalisation from 1 January 1993 led to the very real danger that Irish depositors would choose to evade tax by transferring their funds to other EU countries without declaring interest on these foreign accounts to Revenue. It was considered that a tax driven outflow of funds would lead to upward pressure on interest rates as well as an unacceptably high loss of tax revenues. In order to deal with this the DIRT regime was altered in three principal respects. These measures were intended to protect Exchequer revenues to the maximum extent consistent with the need to avoid significant capital outflows.

The three principal changes may be set out as follows. Special savings accounts, or SSAs, were introduced on 1 January 1993 subject to final liability DIRT at the low rate of 10 per cent. This rate was increased to 15 per cent in the 1995 budget and was further increased to 20 per cent in the 1998 budget. This latter increase was effective from 6 April 1998. SSAs are targeted at the more mobile funds held by small to medium investors and offer a higher net return than ordinary deposit accounts. There are a number of conditions, most notably that an individual may hold no more than £50,000 in an SSA. However, a married couple may hold two individual SSAs separately or two joint SSAs, each with a maximum of £50,000.

Standard rate DIRT tax now satisfies the depositor's full liability to income tax in respect of his interest income, even if he pays income tax at the higher 46 per cent rate on his marginal income. In other words, DIRT became a final liability tax. However, the interest subject to the standard rate DIRT remains liable to PRSI and the other levies and must be included in the taxpayers return of income. This measure was designed to reduce the incentive for depositors to transfer funds into either low DIRT SSAs or foreign accounts.

Companies may now operate DIRT free accounts, although the interest income is subject to corporation tax. This measure provides a cash flow advantage for businesses and so reduces the incentive for them to operate overseas accounts.

Since the introduction of DIRT there have been two special categories of individuals who could receive a refund of DIRT paid. These are individuals over 65 years of age and disabled individuals who would not be liable, or fully liable, to income tax on their deposit interest because their taxable income would be too low. Such individuals are entitled to a subsequent refund or partial refund of DIRT paid to Revenue. Almost £12 million in refunds was paid in 1997, representing about 7.25 per cent of the gross DIRT yield.

Since its introduction in 1986, the DIRT system has resulted in the collection of about £2.5 billion by the State. The yield, net of refunds for each year, is as follows: 1986 — £137 million; 1987 — £297 million; 1988 — £206 million; 1989 — £185 million; 1990 — £271 million; 1991 — £261 million; 1992 — £255 million; 1993 — £260 million; 1994 — £90 million; 1995 — £114 million; 1996 — £126 million; 1997 — £148 million; 1998 — £67 million. The total amount is £2,415 million.

While the annual yield was as high as £271 million in 1990, the amount of moneys collected has since fallen. The reduction in yield reflects among other things the significant decline in interest rates, the introduction of the special savings accounts with their low rate of DIRT and the general decline in the standard rate of DIRT. The yield to date for 1998 is £66.7 million. However, this does not include the October payment which accounts for somewhere in the region of two-thirds of the total yield.

At present it is the general practice of member states not to tax the interest income of non-residents and this has created opportunities for evasion leading to an erosion of national tax revenues. Member states have experienced large capital outflows to other member states from individuals seeking to evade domestic tax. It is anticipated that this problem will be reinforced by the adoption of the euro which will create a single currency market within the participating states, thus allowing investors to move their funds to other member states without any exchange rate risks. In the past the Commission has favoured tackling the problem by way of an EU-wide withholding tax at a minimum rate of 15 per cent. However, when the issue was last discussed in 1994, a withholding tax solution was not acceptable to certain member states.

Like other member states we do not tax non-resident deposits. However, at the ECOFIN meeting in December 1997, member states agreed that a common EU framework to ensure a minimum of effective taxation of interest would be pursued. It was agreed that the Commission's proposal, based on the coexistence model, would form the basis for progressing the matter. The adoption of the coexistence model would give member states the option of either applying a withholding tax, levied at a proposed 20 per cent minimum rate by the paying agent, or providing information on savings income to other member states, or using a combination of both systems. This model envisages that each member state will be required to either operate a withholding tax or provide other member states with information on savings income paid to their residents. The proposal would also take account of the need to preserve the competitiveness of EU financial markets.

In principle Ireland has no objection to a common EU framework provided it is effective in safeguarding tax revenues but does not at the same time undermine the competitiveness of member states' capital markets. Ireland supports the general thrust of these proposals.

At this stage the draft directive is under active consideration by an EU Council working group. While it is the intention of EU Finance Ministers to complete the process by the middle of next year, there are a number of significant issues which still need to be resolved.

The report in the Sunday Independent last April that there was a sizeable number of bogus non-resident accounts in the AIB and other banks in the late 1980s and early 1990s has given rise to considerable and understandable concerns. I make very clear once again the Government's intolerance of those who engage in tax evasion and those who assist or abet tax evaders. Deputies will appreciate that the pursuit of particular tax cases is a matter for the Revenue Commissioners. It has always been accepted that neither the Minister for Finance nor the Government get involved in such cases for obvious reasons.

The Revenue Commissioners have a wide range of powers to combat tax evasion. They have powers to access bank accounts although only in certain specified circumstances. The powers available to Revenue were last added to significantly in 1992 when the Taoiseach was Minister for Finance. These new powers included: provision of third party returns to Revenue on an automatic basis; reporting by domestic institutions who act as intermediaries in the opening of foreign bank accounts by Irish residents; provision of information on dealings by related parties such as suppliers; extended inspection powers in relation to certain tax records and accounts, and attachment of amounts owed by third parties to a defaulting taxpayer. These were added to further in 1993 and in 1995 when reporting arrangements and other duties were imposed on certain company advisers.

The Taoiseach was Minister for Finance in 1992 and most Members of the House will recall the criticisms he faced from many quarters when he brought forward the proposals to strengthen Revenue's powers to collect the State's taxes. The reaction in 1992 was mild compared with the furore in 1995 when Deputy Quinn brought forward measures in the Finance Bill which became known as the "whistle-blower's section". Some enterprising student might find it interesting to go back many years and assess the reaction inside and outside the House to any proposals at various times to strengthen Revenue's powers.

I referred earlier to Revenue's powers in relation to bank accounts. The main power is in section 908 of the Taxes Consolidation Act, 1997. This section, which emanates from the 1983 Finance Act, empowers Revenue to apply for a High Court order to require a financial institution to furnish certain information regarding an individual who is ordinarily resident in the State. The preconditions necessary to make an application to the High Court are: that the individual failed to deliver a required return of income; or such return is unsatisfactory; and the authorised officer is of the opinion that the person has undisclosed accounts with the institution, or the institution has information which indicates that the individual's return is false. Where an order is given, the High Court may, on application of the authorised officer, freeze bank accounts of the individual concerned.

Similar powers are available under section 907 of the Taxes Consolidation Act. Under this section, which was introduced in 1983, the appeal is made to the appeals commissioners rather than to the court and the authorised officer must send a copy of any application to the taxpayer and the bank before the hearing. The taxpayer and the institution may also attend and present arguments during the hearing of the application and there are no account freezing powers. It is important to emphasise that neither section 907 nor section 908 applies to non-resident accounts. The general right of a Revenue officer to enter a business premises to examine records, a basic requirement in relation to audit, does not apply to a premises where banking business is carried on.

I indicated on several occasions that, following the report of the McCracken tribunal, I asked Revenue and my Department to examine whether new powers are needed for Revenue in tackling tax evasion. This review is a wide-ranging one and includes the question of extra powers in relation to bank accounts and the examination of the affairs of banking institutions. The outcome of this review will be examined in the light of the report of the Moriarty tribunal so that whatever measures are considered necessary in this area can be taken.

Deputies will be aware that the Moriarty tribunal is charged with looking specifically at "whether the Revenue Commissioners availed fully, properly and in a timely manner in exercising the powers available to it in collecting or seeking to collect the taxation due by Mr. Michael Lowry and Mr. Charles Haughey ." and also at the adequacy of the current tax laws for the protection of the State's tax base from fraud and evasion in the establishment and maintenance of offshore accounts. Many aspects of the problems relating to offshore accounts will be similar to those relating to the issue of bogus non-resident accounts which are being examined by the Committee of Public Accounts.

I assure the House that the Government will fully support any measures which can assure that the liability of persons and companies to tax can be reasonably and effectively pursued. Any such proposals would need to be carefully gone into to ensure they would be effective, could not be easily circumvented, would not needlessly disrupt the affairs of compliant, law-abiding taxpayers, and would be proportionate in their effect on the financial sector when measured against the problems to be tackled.

As part of the ongoing review of Revenue's powers, officers from the Department of Finance and Revenue visited a number of other countries to compare Irish powers of access to bank information with those in the United Kingdom, Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden, France and New Zealand. This review found that all those countries, except for Sweden and New Zealand, adopt a policy similar to Ireland of providing the tax authority with the minimum access to bank information necessary to properly administer the tax system. However, within these parameters the tax authorities in the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Germany and France appear to have greater access powers than the Revenue Commissioners have under existing Irish law.

This international comparison will provide very useful background for the completion of the review of Revenue's powers. Deputies will acknowledge that in completing this review the Government will have to ensure that a balance must be struck between having wide-ranging powers to reassure the public of the equity of the tax system and the need to encourage taxpayers to be compliant and to make it possible to settle liabilities. Revenue attaches great importance to promoting voluntary compliance as well as increasing powers.

While the public climate at present may dictate additional Revenue powers, and there appears to be scope for such moves, the poor reception in the business community in the past has to be borne in mind. The extra powers given to Revenue in the past have been used wisely by it. I have no doubt that any further powers will be used just as wisely, but as a people we have to decide carefully how far we want to go in giving the State wide-ranging powers of surveillance.

While the Revenue Commissioners have come in for a certain amount of criticism over the past year or so, I am very aware of the proficiency, expertise, perseverance and balance shown by the them in pursuing their task. I complimented the Revenue in the past and I do so again tonight on how well it has improved its performance and delivery of services during the past ten years. Over that period the amount of taxes collected by the Revenue has more than doubled to £19 billion gross.

Developments which have been implemented by Revenue in recent years include the introduction of a self-assessment system, the use of targeted and random audits, more effective enforcement through the sheriffs and other mechanisms, the extended use of the tax clearance system, the development of a new prosecution system, and a charter of taxpayers rights. These are all developments for which we can compliment Revenue on the changes it made within the organisation to ensure that the tax system works far better now than it did ten years ago. The challenge of managing and administering the tax system over the years should not be underestimated. I firmly believe that, in recent times, the strong growth in tax revenues is due, in no small part, to the determination of Revenue to continue to improve the tax collection system. Vast strides have been made in this area which is strongly reflected in the advances made in overall tax compliance. The greater efficiency and effectiveness achieved by Revenue has been one of the significant contributing factors towards the achievement of national budgetary and economic objectives.

The role of the Central Bank has come in for some scrutiny in recent weeks. Some of the comments on the bank fail to recognise the objectives set for it by this House. The bank's role in the financial services sector is that of prudential regulator. The purpose of this regulation is, as the Governor of the Bank correctly pointed out to the Committee of Public Accounts last week, to protect depositors' funds and the stability of the financial system as a whole. Although prudential supervision plays a critical role in helping to avoid bank failure, it should be stressed that the object of this supervision as it exists in Ireland and in the EU is not the prevention of bank failure at any cost.

If the main focus was on preventing bank failure regardless of cost, this could be achieved only at the expense of stifling competition, innovation and efficiency and would ultimately be self-defeating. Neither is supervision designed to eliminate risk, but to set the parameters within which risk should be contained. We cannot compare banks with other commercial companies unless we first acknowledge that banks have high levels of borrowings, in forms of deposits and interbank loans, even after taking into account the stringent prudential limits set by the Bank. This is in the nature of banking, not only in Ireland but everywhere else. The Central Bank's prudential supervision has provided Ireland with a safe banking environment for the ordinary saver, whether personal or business, and it is in all our interests to ensure that we do not lose sight of that.

The expertise and experience required to conduct prudential regulation in a manner which guards against bank failure is invaluable and I have no hesitation in acknowledging that the Central Bank has performed this role with distinction and success. A recent survey in the 1998 Global Competitiveness Report of the World Economic Forum placed it third in the world in terms of its efficiency and effectiveness in this regard. The bank's record bears this out.

The range of services which the Central Bank oversees has developed significantly since legislative provision for supervision was first made in 1971. The bank's powers and duties in financial services supervision are now spread across a wide range of primary and secondary legislation. They encompass the regulation of banks, building societies, non-bank financial institutions, including those located in the IFSC, as well as investment intermediaries and the Stock Exchange. The bank also operates the deposit protection scheme, and recently was appointed the supervisory authority for investor compensation under the Investor Compensation Act, l998.

Developments in the area of prudential supervision by the bank have been influenced primarily by evolving international standards as well as financial innovation in Ireland and worldwide. Most directly, however, the bank has been influenced by the development of EU law, which has been a key influence on the evolution of its statutory role as prudential regulator of financial service providers.

Mention of European law leads to an issue which has been the subject of debate in this House on a number of occasions in recent times — confidentiality. Indeed, the Governor referred to this in his address to the Committee of Public Accounts last week. Confidentiality is a core element in the prudential supervision of financial institutions not only in Ireland but internationally. It is seen as a necessary balance to the extremely wide powers of intrusion and information gathering provided to the Central Bank and prudential regulators in other developed countries in legislation.

Supervisors need access to such sensitive information relating to bank capital and high exposure loans in order to assess the risks to the financial entities that they supervise. This information has to remain confidential because it may relate to problems in a bank which the supervisor is helping to resolve, and which, if disclosed, could lead to a lack of confidence in the bank, and consequent loss to customers and the State. Supervisors have access to sensitive commercial data which, if released, would impinge on a bank's competitiveness. It is, as the Governor also pointed out, the guarantee of confidentiality which facilitates and promotes supervisory co-operation with prudential supervisors in Ireland and elsewhere with a view to providing a comprehensive international and domestic framework for supervising the financial sector.

International exchanges of information occur daily. Supervisory authorities must be assured that, when transmitting confidential information to their counterparts elsewhere, the information transmitted is also subject to stringent professional secrecy requirements in the receiving institution. This is why EU law is so strict on the issue of confidentiality and Irish law, which reflects this EU law, is equally stringent. If the Irish regulatory authority cannot be assured of the confidence of regulators in other countries the effectiveness of our regulatory system would be severely dented.

At its meeting today, the Government decided to establish a single regulatory authority for financial services. Agreement was reached on the establishment of an implementation group to furnish proposals on the role and functions of the new authority and progress the work necessary to enable the required legislation to be drawn up. A press release giving more details and the terms of reference of the group is being prepared for issue tomorrow.

The Government is fully committed to assisting the Committee of Public Accounts to progress its investigations as rapidly as possible and to reach early conclusions. We await the committee's recommendations on what further assistance can be given to them to achieve this and we undertake to facilitate it with whatever powers or assistance the House considers necessary and appropriate for this purpose.

Deputies McDowell and Broughan cast doubt on whether the Committee of Public Accounts has the power to do what it is doing currently. Deputy McDowell stated there was no legal power to deal with this issue and referred to the committee straying beyond its normal remit. There is no normal or extraordinary remit; there is one remit set out under Standing Order 149. The Committee of Public Accounts is currently examining the 1997 Annual Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and Appropriation Accounts, particularly its deliberations on Vote 9 — the Office of the Revenue Commissioners. It includes a figure for the amount of arrears and income tax collected and under that heading we are examining whether a sufficient amount was included for DIRT. Any deliberations come fully under that remit. Deputy McDowell stated he wanted to see the examination carried out in a cost effective manner. None of us wants a situation involving costs similar to various tribunals of inquiry in recent years and that is not the purpose of this examination.

The Central Bank has operated exceptionally well in its function as the prudential guardian of the banking system and when the Governor of the bank appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts he acquitted himself well in that regard at all times.

Why is the Government introducing new legislation tomorrow?

I am glad that the Government is to establish a single regulatory authority for financial services because, as the Deputy is aware, the Central Bank is involved in prudential matters within the banking system to ensure——

What about probity?

Deputy Broughan, you had your opportunity and time is limited for Deputy Ardagh. Please allow him to continue without interruption.

All parties in the House have seen the need for a regulatory authority for financial services and I am delighted the Government is about to establish one.

The last thing the Committee of Public Accounts needs now is to be restricted in the many possibilities and permutations available to it. The Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act, 1997, only came into operation through a resolution in August. Despite this, its use by any committee will need the consent of a subcommittee of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges; effectively, it needs the consent of the party Whips. Not only are we getting into how the Committee of Public Accounts will work in examining this, it will be the first opportunity to see how the compellability Act works in practice. It will set a precedent for other committees in this regard.

I am glad the original motion tabled by the Labour Party was changed because it mentioned a settlement amount between the AIB and the Revenue Commissioners. It was obvious to those who followed the proceedings of the Committee of Public Accounts last week that the major difference between the evidence on both sides was whether a settlement had been reached. The main force of the original motion flew in the face of the conflicting evidence given by both sides and to ask the Committee of Public Accounts to report on the basis of an explicit premise which in itself was the crux of the matter was ludicrous.

The general thrust of the motion is agreed by all parties but I have reservations about paragraph (c)(ii) which deals with the use of non-resident accounts in the banking system generally for the purposes of tax evasion. It states "The information known or available to the directors and officers of the bank, the Revenue Commissioners, the Central Bank concerning this practice and the steps being taken to bring it to an end are to be examined and reported on." I do not know whether that should come under the remit of the single regulatory authority because the Committee of Public Accounts is set up to examine the £19,000 million gross taxes collected by the Revenue Commissioners and its expenditure.

The problem in this case arose on the question of DIRT.

The Deputy is kicking the ball to touch.

The circumstances surrounding the purported settlement by AIB of its outstanding liabilities for DIRT comes within the remit of the Committee of Public Accounts and I have no problem with that. The motion reflects some confidence in the Committee of Public Accounts and pays tribute to my competent and able fellow members of the committee, because of the way in which power and assistance of the House will be given in this matter. Expectations should not be raised that we satisfy all the demands being made by Members and the public but we will do our duty to the best of our ability with the resources and assistance the motion will give to us. While everyone will not be satisfied, I hope the many concerns expressed by Deputies and the public will be addressed in a manner that will reflect well on Members and their ability to deal effectively with matters of major public concern.

I move amendment No. 1:

To insert "and other relevant financial institutions" after "AIB" in each place where it occurs.

Fine Gael believes the motion is legally defective. The Committee of Public Accounts has acted not only expeditiously but fairly. It is at great pains not to transgress the rights of any individual or institution. It has stepped carefully through what could be a legal minefield and it has had the benefit of expert legal advice in so doing. The House would be well advised not to fall into the legal traps so carefully avoided by the committee.

The motion does not name any financial institution other than the AIB. It was the revelations in respect of bogus non-resident accounts held by the AIB for the purpose of evading DIRT which gave rise to the present controversy. There appears to be agreement that the practice was widespread in the banking industry. The House is unwise to accept the motion because it focuses on the AIB and gives rise to the possibility of legal proceedings by the AIB on the grounds of unfair practice on the part of the House. By adding the words "any other relevant financial institution" after "AIB" in the two instances where it occurs in the motion the amendment gets over this difficulty. I strongly urge the proposer of the motion and the Government to accept it.

Deputy McDowell, the Labour Party Finance spokesperson, dedicated a large proportion of his contribution to this issue. He explained how carefully the Committee of Public Accounts had to proceed, the rights of individuals and institutions, and the fact that no person's rights can be transgressed if we are to proceed in a manner which will not leave us open to legal challenge. He said that no further meetings of the Committee of Public Accounts should be held until its powers are enhanced because, as soon as it gets close to the bone, an action will be taken in the High Court.

By agreement between the Labour Party and the Government, the House is about to accept a motion — this is the advice to which I have access — which transgresses the prescriptions laid down by the proposer of the motion. I ask the Government to accept the amendment. If this were simply an Opposition motion, it would not carry the same weight. It is unusual that the Government would proceed with a motion of consequence out of a Private Members' motion. If the motion was being taken in Government time it would have been checked by the legal offices of the State, including the Attorney General. The motion should be subject to equal scrutiny. My party cannot agree to it because of that flaw.

I understand the Committee of Public Accounts will publish its interim report tonight. It will require careful consideration. Whatever powers are requested by the committee, on its own behalf or on behalf of the Comptroller and Auditor General, should be granted. Any additional resources required by the committee or the Comptroller and Auditor General to properly carry out the task being entrusted to them by the House should be allocated without quibble. The Supplementary Estimate necessary to finance the additional work, which will be undertaken by the Comptroller and Auditor General, should be readily agreed by the House.

It is difficult to assess the adequacy of the motion without a careful study of the interim report of the Committee of Public Accounts. To a degree, we are being asked to buy into a motion which may be inadequate when measured against the requests and recommendations of the committee. I regret I cannot commit my party to supporting the motion as proposed. Fine Gael will carefully consider the recommendations of the interim report tomorrow and measure the adequacy of the motion against them. Fine Gael expects the House to accept my amendment. We will state clearly our voting position on the motion during the debate tomorrow evening.

Fine Gael wants a full investigation into the evasion of DIRT through the use of bogus non-resident accounts. Fine Gael believes the Committee of Public Accounts, with the assistance of the Comptroller and Auditor General, is well equipped to carry out this investigation. I congratulate the committee on the significant progress it has made to date and wish in particular to congratulate the chairman, Deputy Jim Mitchell, on the way he has so expeditiously come to terms with this matter of great public concern. Fine Gael supports the political consensus in the House to give the committee and the Comptroller and Auditor General any additional powers or assistance which may be necessary to enable them to complete their investigations.

Fine Gael demands that any outstanding liability for DIRT by any financial institution be paid in full. The evasion of DIRT through the use of bogus non-resident accounts was an industry wide problem, not confined to the AIB. This was claimed by one of the AIB witnesses who appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts and, except in the case of one institution, has not been rebutted by any of the others. All financial institutions which owe DIRT should pay it.

Fine Gael demands that the Minister for Finance ensures all outstanding tax is paid in full. Fine Gael demands that the Minister state the policy of the Government on the collection of outstanding DIRT and that he arrange to meet the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners immediately to discuss these matters. Fine Gael demands that the Minister state what contact and discussions took place between the Minister for Finance and the Revenue Commissioners in 1991 before the Revenue Commissioners entered into the arrangement with the AIB, the subject of the present controversy.

Fine Gael calls on the Revenue Commissioners to fully explain all their actions, in particular why they waived DIRT due by the AIB or any other financial institution in 1991 and 1992. Fine Gael requests the Revenue Commissioners to state in what way they believe their powers to be defective and what amendments they propose to enable them to crack down on tax evasion. Fine Gael believes the financial services industry needs a new independent regulator. We proposed this in March. The Fine Gael members of the Joint Committee on Finance and the Public Service pursued this policy. The joint committee, under the effective chairmanship of Deputy Michael Ahern, unanimously agreed that such a regulator should be established and recommended this in its report presented in July.

Fine Gael requested a clear statement from the Central Bank stating where, in its opinion, its present statutory remit ends, if it considers it has any responsibility to the consumer other than that arising from prudential considerations and if its opposition to the establishment of a single independent regulatory authority for the financial services industry arises from the fact that it considers such a body unnecessary or because it believes the Central Bank should carry out whatever new functions Dáil Éireann considers necessary to protect the consumer.

I will expand on my party's policy positions on this issue. On a number of occasions the House has had to inquire into certain activities and, in recent years, it has established judicial tribunals to carry out such inquiries. An occasion now presents where the appropriate forum to conduct an inquiry is the Committee of Public Accounts.

However, that committee, even with the amended powers it will request, will not be effective without the mediation of the Comptroller and Auditor General. He is uniquely placed to carry out whatever investigatory task the committee allocates to him. He knows the Revenue Commissioners, has access to them on an annual basis and reports on them annually. The recent report of the Comptroller and Auditor General is critical of certain practices in the Revenue Commissioners, particularly the paucity of random audits and the reduction in comprehensive audits undertaken by the Revenue Commissioners.

Section 7 of the Comptroller and Auditor-General Act, 1923 has never previously been invoked by the Houses of the Oireachtas. Under that section the Houses may direct the Comptroller and Auditor General to carry out a particular task. There might be legal difficulties with the section. The powers of direction are extremely strong in the 1923 Act, which predates the Constitution, and might not stand up to constitutional challenge based on a Constitution which places such emphasis on personal rights. An amendment might be required to the legislation but I await the interim report of the committee. I presume it took this as well as other matters into account.

As a matter of principle, whatever the exact powers are or wherever there is a meeting point between the powers of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the powers of the committee, the appropriate forum to carry this inquiry forward under the instructions of Dáil Éireann is the Committee of Public Accounts together with the Comptroller and Auditor General who reports to that committee. An interim report is due tonight and a full report will be produced in a matter of months. At that time the substantive issue will again be placed before the House when whatever further action must be taken by either the Minister for Finance, the Revenue Commissioners or the Central Bank will be decided.

This is how the House should proceed. There is consensus in the House about this principle and Fine Gael is prepared to discuss the details either in the conclusion of this debate tomorrow night or when the Minister for Finance introduces the legislation which will be deemed necessary by the Committee of Public Accounts.

All outstanding liability for DIRT should be met. There is a conflict of evidence between the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners and the representatives of AIB. The chairman said no settlement was reached in respect of outstanding DIRT liabilities with AIB. While there is a conflict of evidence, it appears to lie in the narrow interpretation of the words used. My understanding is that the Revenue Commissioners regard a settlement as an arrangement where a lesser amount than the amount due is imposed on the person or institution with the liability.

According to the evidence before the committee, no lesser amount was required of AIB. All that was required of AIB was that it would be forward looking and that in future years it would adhere to the rules set by the Revenue Commissioners in respect of payment. However, the question of arrears was never dealt with by way of settlement. Not £1 of arrears was required to be paid in the discussions between the Revenue Commissioners and AIB so there was no settlement.

AIB did not use the word "settlement" but believed it had an amnesty. However, an amnesty requires legislation. There were two tax amnesties and they required legislation from the Department of Finance. Therefore, in the case of AIB no amnesty was granted by this House. The Revenue Commissioners are correct in stating there was no amnesty. It is clear, however, that AIB paid an additional £5 million in respect of its liabilities in 1991 and £9 million in respect of further liabilities in 1992. It was a forward looking arrangement.

If there were arrears of DIRT between 1986 and 1991, nothing was paid. If nothing was paid, there was no settlement. There is much playing with words about this matter and the Minister for Finance has a responsibility to establish whether there was a liability between 1986 and 1991. There appears to be a prima facie case that there was such a liability not only in AIB but in other institutions. This House and the taxpayer demands that all outstanding liabilities are met. The semantics of “settlement” and “amnesty” must be put aside and what is due must be paid. The Minister has a responsibility to state that bluntly to the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners.

The function of the Revenue Commissioners is to collect the tax due under law. It is the duty of the House to make that law but it is also the duty of the Minister for Finance to form the policy under which the Revenue Commissioners collect taxes. It is time for the Minister to intervene with a policy direction on this matter. If the money is owed, there is no settlement or amnesty. The banks must pay up.

The Minister must also intervene in another area. He must state what policy was in operation in 1991. What policy discussions, if any, took place between the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners? What policy considerations, if any, were taken into account by the Minister of the day? There has been a series of statements suggesting that the policy was that money would flee the country, that this would lead to a rise in interest rates and also to a financial crisis. These statements were made by a number of people, including the chairman of the Revenue Commissioners in his evidence to the Committee of Public Accounts.

Policy is a matter for Ministers and, if that was the policy, what discussions took place between the Minister's representatives in the Department of Finance and the Revenue Commissioners before the policy was established not to collect the arrears due and to have a forward looking arrangement simply to ensure that amounts owed for a specific date would be paid?

The Government has now adopted a policy to establish a single regulatory committee for financial services. I proposed such a body in the past. It was processed through the Joint Committee on Finance and General Affairs whose report had the unanimous support of Deputies from all parties.

The press statement released after today's Cabinet meeting was the most unusual such statement ever to emerge. The Government has decided in principle to establish a single regulatory body for the financial services industry but says it must now consider the body's role and function. One would have thought one would consider the role and function first before deciding what type of body or authority would carry out that function. The Government committing itself to establishing an authority without even considering its role and function is really a case of putting the cart before the horse. I regret I do not have enough time to deal with the funnier aspect of this statement.

They are waiting for the Tánaiste.

Debate adjourned.
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