Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 1998

Vol. 495 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 13, Plant Varieties (Proprietary Rights) (Amendment) Bill, 1997 — Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 14, Western Development Commission Bill, 1998 — Second Stage (resumed) and No. 15, Statements on Agriculture.

It is also proposed notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 15: the opening statement of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes. Private Members' Business shall be No. 49, motion re. Committee of Public Accounts (resumed).

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15 agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Noonan

Is the Taoiseach aware the Committee of Public Accounts has published its interim report and that it has suspended hearings into the controversy that surrounds bogus non-resident accounts and the possible evasion of DIRT? In its report the committee recommended a number of legal changes, such as additional powers for the Comptroller and Auditor General and changes to the compellability of witnesses Act. What arrangements does the Taoiseach intend putting in place to allocate Department responsibility to bring forward the changes in the law? What priority will he give to these changes in the draftsman's office? Will the necessary legal changes be made before Christmas to ensure the Committee of Public Accounts can recommence its hearings on this important matter?

Mr. Stagg

To arrive at a consensus on the way forward, it would be helpful if the chairperson of the committee and his legal adviser met the Whips of all parties to progress the matter to the point where we can agree on how to proceed. There is general consensus on the need to proceed and the committee has recommended a particular course of action.

Mr. Rabbitte

It is important that the Taoiseach is precise on this matter. There is a view that the important Private Members' motion, on which we will vote tonight, will dispose of the issue of conferring additional powers. That is not the case, as the report from the Committee of Public Accounts makes clear. It is important that the Taoiseach gives us a timeframe for the necessary legislative changes to give additional powers to the committee and confer powers on the Comptroller and Auditor General that are analogous to those of a High Court inspector under the companies Acts.

The Taoiseach

I thank Members for their questions. I have not seen the report. I was in my office until late last night. I understood I would receive a copy of the report, but it did not arrive. I understand it was sent to me last night. I was in my office early this morning but I still have not got the report. The Attorney General received it just as I got into the House at 10.25 a.m. I understand the Minister for Finance received it late last night and I spoke to him on the telephone about the matter this morning. I have read some of the newspaper briefings on it which I assume are correct. Deputy Rabbitte is correct is saying that the Private Members' motion tonight does not deal with the matter. The two central issues which the chairman and the committee are asking us to address are amendments to the Comptroller and Auditor-General Act, 1923, and the 1997 compellability of witnesses legislation, both of which are central to the committee undertaking its work. As I have said here over the past fortnight, I support what the committee is trying to do. The committee's request will be considered carefully today by the Attorney General and by the Department of Finance. I have no difficulty with the Whips and the chairman having a meeting. It might also be advisable if the chairman of the committee and his legal adviser were to speak directly with the Attorney General. This would save time in terms of finding out precisely what is required and how that can best be done. In reply to Deputy Noonan, we will give it priority and hope we can move it forward speedily.

An Ceann Comhairle

For the information of Members, the report was laid before the House last night.

Mr. Noonan

I have no doubt the Taoiseach will agree the Government has a legislative priority. To replace that with other priorities will require Cabinet sanction. Will the Taoiseach consider calling a special Cabinet meeting either today or tomorrow to give absolute priority to the legislative changes required to allow the committee to recommence its hearings. The changes are not minor. They will require precise legal examination and priority in the parent Departments and in the draftsman's office. The Taoiseach should take the initiative now, hold a special Cabinet meeting and set the priority in train.

Mr. J. Mitchell

The committee made every attempt last night to supply a copy of the report to the Government Chief Whip and the Opposition Chief Whip. We sent one to the Minister for Finance but the offices were closed when they were delivered at 9 p.m. last night. No discourtesy was intended. The Minister for Finance and the Secretary General of the Department of the Finance were supplied with copies, as was your office, a Cheann Comhairle.

It would be useful if the legal adviser to the Committee of Public Accounts and I had the meeting suggested by Deputy Stagg and supported by the Taoiseach, and we would also be happy to have discussions with the Attorney General.

The Taoiseach

I welcome that. As Deputy Noonan will appreciate, it is hard for me to respond until the Department of Finance and the Attorney General examine the matter, but every priority will be given to it. The Government will look at their submission as soon as it is ready, which is unlikely to be today or tomorrow.

Proinsias De Rossa

Legislation has been promised to abolish ground rents. The Taoiseach has indicated on a number of occasions that there are constitutional problems with this proposal. What progress is being made in overcoming those problems? Have there been any recent reports from the Attorney General on the matter?

The Taoiseach has promised a debate in the House the week after next on structural funding, which I welcome although it is a bit late. Will he ensure the documentation published by Business and Finance magazine on the question of the relative financial advantages and disadvantages of having one or two regions is made available by the Government to Members either today or tomorrow?

The Taoiseach

I did not see the article but one of my colleagues mentioned to me this morning that the document seemed to be leaked from Brussels. I will check it and if there is anything in the public domain Members are welcome to have it. However, I am not too sure I have seen that document either.

Proinsias De Rossa

It is extraordinary that we can get this information from Brussels but not from our own Government.

The Taoiseach

It might be extraordinary but it is not unusual.

The constitutional doubts about the ground rents Bill relate to the central purpose of the Bill. The Registrar of Titles indicated the Bill would give rise to substantial practical difficulties. That central purpose of the proposed legislation is still under examination and a way has not yet been found around it.

Mr. Noonan

I understand the Government decided at yesterday's Cabinet meeting to legislate to establish an independent statutory authority to supervise the financial services industry. Subsequently, a press statement was issued saying the Government was setting up a committee to decide the authority's role and function. The normal practice would be to decide the role and function before deciding what kind of body would carry it out. Will the Taoiseach explain exactly what was decided in respect of this new legislation?

The Taoiseach

The Government has been anxious about this for some considerable time and the Tánaiste and the Minister for Finance have been examining how best to set up a separate regulatory authority for the wider remit of the financial services industry. Considerable work was done on that throughout the summer, but it is clear to the Government that not enough preparatory work has been done.

The committee which was set up yesterday — the membership will be announced today — will look precisely at how this should be done, which the Department of Finance reckons will take three or four months. We will then legislate. The broad thrust is that we should have a separate regulatory authority for the financial services industry. How that is to function, what its relationship with the Central Bank should be and so on will be examined over the next few months. Separate legislation will then be brought forward.

Mr. Noonan

Has the Government decided in principle that it will be an authority separate from the Central Bank, or does it still envisage widening the role of the Central Bank to incorporate——

An Ceann Comhairle

We should not discuss the content on the Order of Business.

Mr. Noonan

It is a reasonable question — I want to know if it is Central Bank legislation or not.

An Ceann Comhairle

It might be a reasonable question but this is not the time to ask it.

Mr. Noonan

Will the legislation be sponsored by the Department of Finance or the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment?

The Taoiseach

The work to date has been done by both Departments. It has not yet been decided which will sponsor the legislation, but the Department of Finance will have a central role in it.

Mr. Dukes

One normally decides what one is going to do before one does it.

Mr. Sargent

The Equal Status Bill is listed on the Order Paper in the name of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. However, will the concerns of the Minister for Education and Science be taken into account, given that it relates to the prohibition of discrimination in education? Can the date for this Bill be brought forward as quickly as possible? It seems a Steiner school in Clare will end up in court if this legislation is not passed because it is not recognised as a school as a result of discrimination in education.

Are there any legislative proposals to avoid a repeat of the situation in which the Revenue Commissioners do not seem to have audited AIB for 12 years? Will that be part of the legislative review, pending the outcome of the investigations?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the content of legislation.

The Taoiseach

The Equal Status Bill, which is to prohibit discrimination in education in the provision of goods, facilities, accommodation and other services, has been remodelled, following the Supreme Court judgment on it. It is hoped that it will be ready in early 1999.

Mr. G. Mitchell

On the proposal to establish a separate regulatory authority for the financial services industry, is the Taoiseach aware this matter was examined by a study group in his Department? Taking the arguments for and against——

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to have a discussion on the matter at this time.

Mr. G. Mitchell

——the committee came down against the recommendation, based on recommendations to strengthen and improve the role of the Central Bank. There are dangers which should be brought to the attention of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

There will be other opportunities for the Deputy to go into that matter.

Mr. G. Mitchell

I hope that in drafting the legislation, the Taoiseach will take account of——

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Jim Higgins.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): The Joint Committee on Justice, Equality and Women's Rights has reported on the need to amend liquor licensing legislation and we have also had the Competition Authority report and the recent comprehensive supermarket report. Scanning the Government's legislative programme, I cannot find any reference to liquor licensing legislation. When the Labour Party's Private Members' Bill was defeated in the House, one of the undertakings given by the Government was that this would be treated as a matter of urgency.

On a related matter, a report out today confirms that 95 per cent of young people under the age of 18 years have sampled alcohol. Does the——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have statements on the Order of Business.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): There is a growing epidemic——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may ask a very short question.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): Sections 40 and 41 of the Intoxicating Liquor Act, 1988, which have not been implemented allow for a national identity card scheme. What is the situation in regard to implementing that urgently needed provision?

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is examining the report and the submissions he has received on the liquor licensing legislation. The heads of a Bill are being prepared in the Department. I understand the identity card scheme is at an advanced stage.

Mr. Ferris

The Greyhound Industry (Amendment) Bill has been on the Taoiseach's list for a long time. He says there are legal difficulties with it, but is he satisfied that will satisfy the Minister of State, Deputy Davern, who was extremely concerned about that Bill for many years? What progress is being made to satisfy the Minister of State and I?

Mr. Rabbitte

The Minister of State looks fairly satisfied to me.

(Interruptions.)

The Taoiseach

I am afraid that legislation is still suffering from the legal difficulties.

Ms Fitzgerald

That does not sound very convincing.

(Interruptions.)

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Shatter on the Order of Business; this is not Question Time.

Mr. Shatter

Two weeks ago the Government sought to defend the indefensible by voting down the Fine Gael anti-gazumping Bill. Again, we see in today's newspapers reports of a court case in which a young couple were gazumped. In light of continuing gazumping of young couples seeking to buy new houses, will the Taoiseach reconsider his approach to this issue? Does the Government intend to introduce legislation to outlaw gazumping.

The Taoiseach

There is no such legislation.

Mr. Shatter

So it is acceptable to gazump young couples.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): In view of the fact the telephone system in the House is in a state of chassis, is the lame excuse from Telecom Éireann that the lines are overloaded good enough?

An Ceann Comhairle

This matter may be raised in another way.

Mr. Browne

(Carlow-Kilkenny): This is a lonely place without a phone.

Mr. Ring

As regards the recent boundary changes for the forthcoming local elections, will there be legislation before the House? The Minister has signed 32 of the 37 orders.

An Ceann Comhairle

You should not embellish the question.

Mr. Ring

I know the boys and girls of County Mayo are not happy with the boundary changes and are talking to the Minister. I am talking about the Fianna Fáil boys and girls. Will legislation come before the House and when will the Minister sign the remaining five orders?

The Taoiseach

The Minister accepted the recommendations made and, to the best of my knowledge, there are no changes.

Mrs. O'Rourke

Keep the boys happy anyway.

Ms Fitzgerald

A few months ago we passed the Employment Equality Bill. When will the commencement orders be signed? Why is there such a delay in establishing the Equality Authority? It is one thing to pass legislation but surely we should bring it into effect as soon as we can.

The Taoiseach

The Bill has been enacted and the Minister must sign the commencement order. The Deputy should ask the Minister when he will do so.