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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Feb 1999

Vol. 500 No. 5

Agenda 2000: Statements.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on the agricultural aspects of the Agenda 2000 proposals. We are at the critical stage of the negotiations. The Council of Agriculture Ministers will meet in Brussels next Monday and the meeting is likely to continue for most of the week. The German Presidency is determined to try to reach agreement on CAP reform at the meeting. Whether it will be successful in achieving that objective remains to be seen, but one way or another we are coming closer to the stage when far-reaching decisions, which will be vital for the future of Irish agriculture, will be taken.

The European Council meeting in Bonn on Friday, 26 February is scheduled, among other things, to consider the outcome of the Agriculture Council meeting. In any event the European Council meeting in Vienna last December confirmed that political agreement on the Agenda 2000 package as a whole should be reached no later than the end of next month. It is precisely because the decisions to be taken are of such major importance that I have devoted such a high priority to forcefully putting Ireland's case at successive meetings of the Council of Agriculture Ministers. I have also used every opportunity to put Ireland's case in a series of bilateral meetings with Commissioner Fischler and with my ministerial colleagues. I have consulted widely here in order to get the best advice and input and I will come back to these contacts in greater detail later.

Statements on the Agenda 2000 CAP reform proposals were last taken in the House on 27 November 1997. At that stage we had only outline proposals on the table and I indicated that my concerns were that the reforms should be carried out in a way which ensured that the principles of the CAP were preserved, the interests of member states should be taken into account in a balanced way and, above all, the incomes of farmers and the viability of rural communities should be fully protected.

These remain my concerns, but the detailed proposals for CAP reform which the Commission presented in March 1998 disappointed me greatly as they contained major changes, by reference to the outline proposals of July 1997, which would adversely impact on Ireland. The more significant changes which affect us are the reduction of beef premia to create the national envelopes; reductions in our male beef premium ceiling and suckler cow premium rights; the abolition of beef intervention and its replacement by a scheme of aids to private storage and an increase from 10 to 15 per cent in the price reduction for milk.

All these changes involve a loss of one kind or another for Ireland. In addition, the Commission put forward other changes from which Ireland does not gain, including the allocation of milk quota to mountainous regions, the restoration of the maize silage subsidy and changes in the beef extensification measures. The balance of the proposals, therefore, changed significantly for Ireland between July 1997 and March 1998.

I accept that European agriculture has to be positioned to cope with the rapid changes taking place both in agriculture and society in general. I agree that, in particular, it has to be ready to meet the challenges which will inevitably arise from the enlargement of the Union and the next round of the World Trade Organisation negotiations, which are due to commence before the end of the year. However, since the proposals emerged, I have made it very clear at meetings of the Council of Agriculture Ministers that the proposals in their present form would seriously damage Irish agriculture and the Irish economy.

From the outset I indicated in the strongest manner my concerns about the effect of the proposals on Irish farmers' incomes and about the lack of equity between member states and different types of production. I have also taken every opportunity to put this case in bilateral meetings with Commissioner Fischler and ministerial colleagues, most recently when meeting the Commissioner in Dublin earlier this month and again in bilateral discussion with him and the President of the Council, German Minister, Herr Funke, in Brussels yesterday. The Taoiseach has also put forward this point of view in his bilateral discussions on Agenda 2000, most recently with President Chirac and Prime Minister Jospin in Paris and Prime Minister Kok in the Hague this week.

It is significant that I obtained acknowledgement of the importance of the beef and milk sectors to Ireland by having written into the conclusions of the Agriculture Council last May a statement that the dependence of particular member states on specific sectors would be taken into account in the final agreement. The beef and milk sectors account for 70 per cent of the Irish agricultural output and 4 per cent of Irish GDP. This is not the case in any other member state, or even remotely so. Each of these sectors is more important to our economy than the entire agriculture sector is to nine other member states. Through the conclusions agreed at the May meeting, the Council has recognised that major Irish economic interests are at stake in the CAP reform negotiations and I intend to ensure that this recognition is honoured by the Council.

The 30 per cent price reduction and the supply control measures proposed for the beef sector by the Commission go far beyond what is needed to restore market balance and will fall disproportionately on extensive producers. It is possible to achieve market balance through lower price reduction and a different approach to supply controls. I put forward proposals for a solution along those lines to the Commission and my colleagues on the Council.

Another issue of major importance to Ireland is the level of compensation in the beef sector. The Commission proposals aim to shift the balance of compensation in favour of intensive production. I have stressed the need for changes to be made to favour extensive production and that a satisfactory outcome to this crucial issue is essential. It is also central that an effective intervention system is retained to ensure that, in the event of temporary market disturbances, it will be possible to provide a floor in the market. That situation was seen last autumn when, despite that fact that we got increases in export refunds and private storage, it was necessary to introduce intervention. It had a stabilising effect on the market. It is critically important for Ireland, which has such a dependence on export markets to third countries and is so vulnerable to them, to have intervention retained.

A further difficulty in the beef negotiations is that there is a perception among other member states that Ireland fared well out of the 1992 reforms. I pointed out that in 1992 the Council decided deliberately to encourage extensive production and structured the premium system accordingly. It was not surprising, therefore, that Ireland, where 99 per cent of beef is produced extensively, benefited from the premium system. I also pointed out that extensive production is a low profit production system and our beef prices are as much as 25 per cent below European levels.

We only have to look at the annual report from Teagasc on incomes to see that incomes in the beef sector are among the lowest of any farming enterprise. We do not have the benefit of maize silage and lower cereal prices which benefit more intensive production systems. If those were taken into account the perception that Ireland receives proportionately more per kilogramme of beef would be found to be erroneous.

The Commission proposals in the milk sector also give rise to difficulties for Ireland. They involve a 15 per cent price reduction and compensatory premia, which would only compensate for 60 per cent of the price reduction. This inadequate compensation is unacceptable. The proposals also involve a milk quota increase of 2 per cent at EU level but the proposed allocation of this increase between member states is uneven, unfair and unacceptable. Ireland's share amounts to a 1 per cent increase, while some other member states receive increases of up to 8.4 per cent. This is clearly discriminatory and will not be accepted.

Reform of the milk sector is not necessary at this stage and we should not embark on changes that would be both expensive – at about 2 billion ECUs per annum – and of limited benefit in terms of trade liberalisation. I would prefer to see the current régime continuing for the present but with provision for a review, in say 2003, in the light of developments at WTO and on world markets.

I have made it clear that if a quota increase is to be part of a final agreement, Ireland will not accept any discrimination against us in its allo cation. In other words, we will demand our fair share of allocation, which is priority allocation, as was written into the 1984 agreement to introduce the milk quota system. We will hold the Council of Ministers to that and ensure they honour that declaration.

On arable crops, the compensation being proposed for the 20 per cent price cut is clearly inadequate. I am seeking to have this redressed, as well as maintaining the separate base area for maize. It is clearly very important that we get a separate maize area because, if we do not, any increase in maize production would eat into our cereal production quota.

On rural development, we support the Commission's proposals, although significant changes are necessary, particularly a widening of the range of eligible activities to include research, advice, training and promotion. That is critically important for Ireland. Teagasc provides a very important research function. It also provides a very important training function. Almost all young farmers have a green certificate and training provided by Teagasc. An Bord Bia has also been supported in its promotional activities under these funds. We need that research, training and promotion to continue. I will demand that the Commission proposals be widened to include those activities.

I am also concerned at the impact of the reform proposals on the sheep sector. That sector is left out of the proposals entirely, as if it did not exist. Sheep production is a very important sector of Irish farming – about 36,000 or 37,000 farmers are provided with an income from sheep farming. There are not any circumstances under which a proposal to reduce, for example, supports for beef by 30 per cent, which is the present proposal, would not impact on the sheepmeat sector – it would be bound to have an impact. I have expressed my concerns about the flaws in the sheepmeat régime. I have pointed out that the consequences of the reform proposals for the beef sector would make the sheepmeat situation even worse. We have the anomaly whereby sheep are counted for stocking density, and yet there is no extensification premium for them. Sheepmeat producers are getting a raw deal in these proposals. I have insisted at every opportunity that sheep be included in the final deliberations.

A complicating factor in the negotiations is the future funding arrangements for the CAP. A report on EU financing arrangements was published by the EU Commission last October. This report addressed the complaints by some member states that the burden of their net contributions is excessive.

One of the options put forward by the Commission to redress the balance was co-financing of direct payments to farmers by the EU and member states. My position is unequivocal on this. Co-financing is completely unacceptable to me and to the Government. At last month's Council of Agriculture Ministers' meeting I pointed out that the Common Agricultural Policy has been built up over 40 years on three central principles – market unity, Community preference and common financial responsibility – and that it has contributed enormously to the solidarity which has cemented the Community over the years. For these reasons, we cannot now begin to dismantle that achievement to provide a partial answer to a problem that goes far beyond the CAP.

While I am reasonably confident that, in the light of the discussions at that meeting and in other fora, the Irish views – shared by some other member states – on co-financing will prevail, there is no doubt that a majority of member states favour a tighter budgetary framework for CAP reform. In this connection, a number of member states have put forward options for the stabilisation of expenditure on the CAP.

In addition, France has put forward the concept of degressivity, that is, the reduction of direct payments to farmers by a certain percentage annually. This concept now appears to have the backing of a significant number of member states and even of the Commission itself, although the Commission has not yet put forward a formal proposal. I am concerned that degressivity will impact more on those sectors, such as beef, which are more dependent on direct payments and less, or not at all, on those sectors where direct payments are small or even non-existent, such as the wine sector. Degressivity could, therefore, give rise to distortions as between sectors, regions and member states and Ireland would be disproportionately affected.

I will stress that if degressivity is to be applied, the different circumstances of each sector will have to be taken into account. It will also have to exclude small scale producers and, in the event of its being applied, I will seek an exemption limit as high as possible to exclude as many Irish producers as possible. For example, the current proposals suggest that those farmers who do not get more than 5,000 euros, or about £4,000, will be excluded. That is obviously too low a limit. I have asked the Department to do a number of studies of limits of 5,000, 7,500, 10,000, 12,500 and 15,000 euros so that we can be certain of the number of farmers who would be affected by this proposal.

While it is clear from what I have said that stricter budgetary discipline will apply, I will insist that the resources available must be adequate to fund a worthwhile and equitable reform. I have already emphasised that there is no point in carrying out a reform that is inappropriate, simply to save money.

Throughout the negotiations, I have been mindful of the need to consult as widely as possible here at home about the implications of the Commission's proposals and on alternatives to them. Since mid-1997 I have had regular consultations with as wide a number of people as possible. That is why I set up four consultative groups last Easter, to which farmers, processors, academics and other interested persons were appointed. I was also conscious of the value of direct consultations with the farm organisations; I met the four farm organisations this morning in preparation for next week's crucial Council meeting. All these consultations have been very helpful in enabling me to gauge the strength of opposition to these proposals by Irish producers and the Irish agriculture industry.

There has been criticism from the Leader of the Opposition of my decision to establish the four consultative groups on the grounds that the members of the groups represented vested interests. This is an extraordinary criticism. In the first place, it ignores – and indeed insults – the many members of the consultative groups who are there because of their professional standing as academics and researchers. Second, this criticism is based on the assumption that policy can be formulated in a vacuum without any input from people involved in the industry, that is, without an input from farmers and processors. I wonder where the Leader of the Opposition is coming from or on what planet he is living.

That is what we have been wondering about the Minister for the past few months.

He is on cloud nine.

The Minister, without interruption.

While there is enormous expertise in the Department of Agriculture and Food and in institutions such as Teagasc and the universities, the expertise acquired from earning a living in the industry must also be brought to bear. Certainly, people from the industry have special interests but they also have expertise. They have to get up in the morning and earn a living from agriculture. Any politician worth his or her salt should be able to distinguish between special interests and expertise. I would listen very attentively to a person making a living from a particular area of activity, such as farming.

I have set out for the House the present state of play and indicated the type of changes I am seeking to have incorporated in the final agreement. My main objective will be to secure an agreement that will contain lower price reductions and higher compensation – by which I mean full compensation – for the three sectors of beef, milk and arable crops, and a non-discriminatory, fair and equitable allocation of any increase in milk quotas. We are entitled to priority in any additional quotas. That will be done together with other changes that will be favourable to the development of Irish agriculture. We want to lead into the next century with a much needed improvement in morale, particularly after the past seven or eight months of difficult prices and adverse weather conditions.

I have tried to be as frank as possible in regard to these negotiations. I have shared all the pro posals and our papers in relation to them with the social partners, farmers and their representative associations. I am still negotiating on these reforms. Nothing has been conceded and no decisions have been made. Next week will be the first time since negotiations began that we will get down to serious detail. I look forward to a constructive debate this evening on the issues involved. I will be very happy to take on board any suggestions which will assist me and our most important natural resource industry in next week's crucial negotiations.

On behalf of Fine Gael, I welcome the opportunity to express some views on this issue. In the final analysis, we will do everything humanly possible to assist the Minister in achieving the best deal for Ireland. On an occasion such as this, a vital national interest is at stake. In spite of the fact that the Minister's record has been extremely poor at home, I hope he will be re-energised when he gets to Brussels. I hope he will not find it as difficult to deal with his EU colleagues as his Government colleagues, particularly the Minister for Finance. He has not been very successful in obtaining Cabinet approval for the measures required for Irish farmers. That is the only criticism I will make. The Minister's voice has been an extremely lonesome one at the Cabinet table and rural Ireland has not seen the desired results.

As far as Agenda 2000 is concerned, it will be a case of all hands on deck. This is a hugely important time in the lives of every farmer. The effect Agenda 2000 will have on our towns, villages and cities will be immense if things go wrong. The agricultural industry is experiencing terrible difficulties. All sectors, with the exception of the dairying sector, are in decline. The Oireachtas Joint Committee on Agriculture, Food and the Marine debated the Irish pigmeat industry today for the first time. In the next four to six weeks, we will hopefully have a decision from Brussels. I hope that by being hurried, we will not be put off side. It is vital that our national interest is looked after, however long it takes.

We must focus on events at the world trade talks. Fine Gael recognises the need for reform but it is important that any reforms introduced are suitable. Some of the proposals go much too far. I conveyed that opinion to Commissioner Fischler last week although it was difficult to know whether he agreed with me. Some of the proposals, particularly in regard to the beef sector, are completely over the top.

The formidable challenge we face is something I have not witnessed previously. I accompanied Deputy Deasy during the negotiations on the milk quota in 1983. We must draw a line in the sand beyond which we are not prepared to go. There are two or three measures we cannot accept under any circumstances. It is important that we build up a platform in Europe comprised of agriculture Ministers and heads of state, particularly of bigger countries that experience prob lems similar to our own. It is extremely important in the last hours of negotiations to have influential people on one's side. I presume the Minister will be working in that regard in the coming weeks.

We have always prided ourselves on the fact that the Germans were very good to Ireland. On this occasion, I believe the French will also be very good to us. Against that background, every political and diplomatic move that can be made should be made to ensure we have important friends in high places when we most need them.

I was delighted to hear the Minister say he would block any attempt at co-financing which is an insidious proposal. It appears to be going off the boil but the possibility remains that the issue might be reintroduced at some stage during the negotiations. If one imagines the German Government with its financial strength deciding to pay a treble suckler cow grant to 2 per cent of its farmers, one can see the competitive edge that would give them over us, given that farmers comprise almost 10 per cent of a population of 3.5 million. Everything I understood the Treaty of Rome to mean under a Common Agricultural Policy would be undermined if co-financing were introduced. Small nations would be downtrodden under those conditions.

The Minister did not refer to the renationalisation of our European markets. I appreciate it may not form part of the negotiations but it is an issue about which I am particularly concerned. I always believed that the cornerstone of the Treaty of Rome was founded on the free movement of goods and services within the member states. The record clearly shows that in countries such as France and Germany, we had good outlets for our products and received prices we could not obtain elsewhere. Because of the country of origin labelling system, we now find ourselves moved off the market. It is very important that our goods be given free access across Europe, particularly in the context of the beef sector. At today's committee meeting on the pigmeat industry, I could not help thinking that some of the problems experienced here relate to imports into the country and the fact that Irish products are not clearly labelled.

We must draw a further line in the sand on an issue of concern to everyone involved in Irish agriculture and clearly outlined in the IFA document, namely, the issue of compensation. We must receive full compensation for any reforms which occur. We are a long way from that at the moment. We have the daunting task of having to sell 500,000 tonnes of beef every year. That tonnage might be reduced somewhat in the foreseeable future, but it will be something of that order. We export nine out of every ten animals. There are too many cattle in Europe and it is arguable there are too many cattle in Ireland. Based on a management supply control system, if there was a small reduction in cattle numbers across Europe and other measures were taken, and having regard to the fact that we export more cattle than any other member state of the European Union, that would create space on the markets of other member states. It is important to monitor this area in the negotiations.

To rebalance the market, I was told it was necessary to reduce our national herd of cows from 12 million to 10.3 million. In our circumstances farmers producing top grade cattle cannot be asked to produce beef at 60p per lb. If that happened, farmers would lose interest in their businesses. They would know before they begin to rear an animal that it will die in debt and a large proportion of the cheque in the post would go only towards ensuring they break even. That proposal is not a runner.

The maize subsidy will create havoc from a competitive point of view. I have a list, which I do not have time to go through, on which Ireland is placed at the bottom of the league. We produce very little maize. Maize to a continental farmer is what silage is to an Irish farmer. If farmers were paid £100 to £150 an acre under such a scheme, we would be at a major disadvantage.

I welcome the proposal for the suckler cow quota. The proposal for the super levy on suckler cows is interesting. I had not thought there were as many suckler cows outside the quota in Europe or in Ireland. That proposal may be a runner. From Commissioner Fischler's point of view, if the price of beef is reduced to 60p per lb, there will not be any problem rebalancing the system because many farmers would want to get out of farming at that stage.

We must radically review our beef industry. We must market our industry. We have said that for years, but we have not done it. This time around we will be given only one chance. Under those conditions we must find the niche markets. We must develop the Belgian Blue for Italy and the Limousin for France. This will have to be undertaken by our AI stations and breeding centres and any bulls or semen used will have to be of the highest quality. I am sure the Minister will not have to spend much time convincing farmers of the need this time. It pays to have quality. Any farmer with a weanling fit for export last autumn was able to get £100 or £150 more than for an animal that could not be exported, and the difference came down to quality.

We would give anything to open up the live cattle trade with Libya, Iran or Egypt, but we must accept that those markets are unstable. We found that out to our cost. We must ensure in future we a sell top quality product at the highest price in the European Union. That is the foundation for the future of our beef industry.

There is no doubt that crises such as the BSE crisis upset our business, but a window of opportunity has opened. I would not have any problem with developing the industry to export top quality live weanlings. Free trade means that if we have something to sell which somebody in Europe wants to buy we can sell it to them. However, we should ensure every animal kept there is of sufficient quality, and that we have sufficient quantity to meet our needs.

Heifers and sheep should be included in extensification proposals. The Minister will have to engage in serious negotiations on stocking densities. If proposals are agreed and sheep are not included we will not be able to do anything about it, but it will not be the hill sheep farmers who will suffer but the best lowland producers in Wexford, Cork and Galway. On a farm where there are cattle and sheep and extensification at £80, farmers will do their sums and will move the sheep off their farms. I can see huge trouble in that. The Minister will have to take a stand on this as many of the 45,000 farmers who have sheep also have cattle. This proposal could be bad news for many of them. This is one of the most insidious proposals I have heard, even though it is not written into the proposal.

With regard to rural development we will have to put up a fight for the cereal sector. Our cereal industry is extremely important not only for those directly involved, but it has a knock-on effect on the livestock, pig and poultry industries.

The Minister put on record that in regard to the milk quota a deal for us was mooted. What happened in Brussels on a night in 1983 was registered. That should be taken into account. If there is to be an increase in the milk quota we want to get our share. We were promised it and are entitled to it.

The European model of agriculture is supposed to distinguish us from other regions of the world. That is one of the reasons we are members of the club, known as the European Union. I was in Argentina recently, I also visited rural America and I have seen what happened in New Zealand and Australia. While it is true farmers there farm without subsidies, I did not meet a farmer who had under 1,000 acres who was able to make a living. I met farmers with 5,000 acres and even 10,000 acres. If our membership of the European Union means anything, we would want to be in a position to protect the livelihoods of the highest possible number of farm families. We all know some farm families will move off the land and while it is difficult to gauge the number, it could be large. We do not want to introduce measures that would entice people to move away from rural areas.

It is important to ensure that we maintain as many farmers as possible, whether full-time or part-time, in rural Ireland. We must also ensure industry is restructured in such a way that it will attract people to live in rural Ireland. If we want to suck the vitality out of rural areas, all we need do is allow the people to leave them. They were not able to hold that in the countries mentioned. I am a bit disappointed with the rural development section which refers to consolidating the existing regulations, namely, those concerning accompanying measures, less favoured areas and socio-structural measures, into one global regulation. The section has many proposals but there is no accompanying estimate to back them up.

Regarding intervention I agree entirely with the Minister. It would be a retrograde step for us if the intervention system was scrapped. A few days after the BSE episode, people stopped eating meat. However, six, eight or ten weeks later the same people were eating meat. What would farmers be expected to do in the meantime if there was no intervention? The system of aids to private storage has not worked in Ireland and never will.

The Minister has a daunting task. I hope it will be possible for young farmers to see an opening to ensure farming is sufficiently attractive for them to make a career in the sector. I am a bit disappointed with installation aid. I thought the Minister would make a case vis-à-vis Structural Funds for co-financing and would pay a reasonable amount of installation aid consistent with the present. The amount the Minister is providing from Government funds is what young farmers had to take in 1984 or 1985. Surely we must have progressed from that. The Fine Gael proposal of a payment of £12,000 is much more in line with the current situation provided it is co-financed from Europe.

I welcome the opportunity to speak on behalf of the Labour Party on this extremely important debate. Decisions are about to be made in Europe which will leave an indelible mark on the face of rural Ireland. I assure the Minister that the Labour Party will give him our full support as he sets about securing what we hope will be the best possible deal for agriculture. This matter transcends party political interests. It is about a vital national interest. At the end of the day we will support the Government which is committed to a deal that will ensure the maintenance of the maximum number of farm families on the land in rural areas and a sustainable income for these families.

This is a tough task as there are many people in Europe who believe we were major beneficiaries of the MacSharry farm proposals in 1992. Many of these people feel we got certain benefits which were not available to other countries. This perception, which totally misconstrues the proposals, emanates from people who have no knowledge of our economy, that beef is ten times more important to our economy than to our European counterparts. It shows no knowledge of the percentage of GDP involved, of the fundamentals of CAP reform or the manner in which the CAP came into being.

There have been three core principles in relation to CAP. Article 36 of the European Treaty refers to market unity, Community preference and common financial responsibility, but these have gone out with the wind. Many European countries have used every trick in the book to pay lip service to these principles which are more observed in the breach than in the spirit. I have spoken many times in the House about the problem of renationalisation. The EU labelling requirements establishing the country of origin have been utilised by countries to ensure the exclusion of products from shelves which had a right to be there under articles of the treaty which refer to the free movement of goods and persons. This is one of the great disappointments in this debate. Why are we not conquering the shelves in Europe? Why is only one UK multiple stocking Irish beef while there is virtually no product in French supermarkets? The answer is clear: it is because of the EU labelling regulations which promote the country of origin.

Speaking on the Electricity Regulation Bill I recently said in the House that we have been over-concerned about strict adherence to everything laid down by Europe. We take everything that comes from Europe, hook, line and sinker. We transpose 100 per cent of every directive and regulation. Very often there is a failure to tailor regulations, directives and other European legislation to our particular needs. There is a major failure in this context. Somebody shouted across the Chamber that I was a Euro-sceptic. That was not the first time I made those points, and if that is Euro-scepticism, so be it.

The French, Germans and Dutch ensure their country's products are promoted at all costs. They do not do so in an overt fashion. Deputy Connaughton is correct. Today we spoke about the pig industry which is a glaring example of how to succeed. However, over the past 12 to 15 months the beef industry suffered in that these countries ensured that Ireland, which has a premier product, cannot get into those markets, despite a scarcity of product. We are producing 7.8 million cattle, a record number. We have a very good product – great efforts have been made by private producers, farmers and processors over the past couple of years to ensure it is one of the best. A tremendous effort has been made to clean up our act in every way. Yet we are still struggling to secure our market niche which is there to be fought for.

I have a very strong view on this matter and it should be taken up in the course of negotiations. It must be fought out in the negotiations as once they end the Minister will be told what was accepted and that we must live with it. A starting point would be to ensure that an immediate end is put to any emerging renationalisation trend. The Minister should call for this, as renationalisation undermines the whole basis upon which the European treaties are based and upon which the CAP came into being.

From the perspective of the Labour Party, it is critical that farm families are put first in the context of these reforms. It is no use bringing forward proposals which help perpetuate the myth that there are a few ranchers doing well in farming. Very often this is seen in Britain where very well-heeled people are doing extremely well because of the manner in which subsidies and premia are allocated. The time may well come – it may be here already – for us to be radical.

In the past two weeks I spoke to a 32 year old farmer who went through agricultural college, who farms 100 acres and is involved in beef production for the domestic market. There are no subsidies or anything of that nature for him. He said he did not think he would ever get married, asking who would take him. The reason was that the level of income he was generating from that enterprise would come nowhere near, as they say down our way, an ass's roar of the average industrial wage.

Romantic Ireland is dead and gone.

It certainly is dead and gone. I was absolutely taken aback because I have often argued this point in the House. This young man brought it home more forcibly than all the great rhetorical speeches and flourishes which one hears. This was a message from a young person in rural Ireland. It brought home to me the fact that we have been living in an established state of denial as to the extent of the problem.

We are fighting for the preservation of farm families, for the retention of services and the preservation of the population in rural Ireland. When a population falls below a critical mass, all the economists will say that certain services are no longer needed. That is the critical element in terms of the interaction between farming and agriculture and the rural population in general and the retention of services in rural Ireland, impacting as it does on schools and churches and in terms of keeping Garda stations open and even keeping the local football or camogie teams going. That is how this problem affects rural Ireland. The way these proposals are handled will have a major economic effect. If there is growth in the economy and in urbanisation, the corollary is mass rural degeneration. We have an obligation to ensure the blinds do not come down on rural Ireland.

If we revisit the CAP reform measures of 1992 introduced by the then Commissioner, Mr. MacSharry, the essential thrust of these proposals was to maintain the maximum number of farm families on the land, to supply food at affordable prices for the community at large, to deal with supply and production of grain, beef and milk products, to take care of the environment and to ensure a supply of good quality food. Even the most cursory examination reveals that CAP reform failed miserably in relation to the first two proposals, that is, to maintain the maximum number of farm families on the land and to supply food at an affordable price to consumers.

Since the MacSharry proposals, we have lost 35,000 farmers. The fear is that if the Agenda 2000 proposals are implemented in their current form, it would change the face of rural Ireland because we would lose about another 35,000 to 40,000 farmers. That would not be in seven or eight years; we could lose them in four to five years, and that is the worry. As Deputy Connaughton said, some people will leave.

The reason I called for a national forum on agriculture, wider than the forum about which the Minister spoke, is that it is essential to involve not only primary producers, processors and academics but those who work in the industry because they are important. It is also important to involve the consumers. I was in Argentina and the one thing which was made clear was that there was interaction between the agriculture industry and the consumer which benefited the farming population. It is important not only that we react to policy changes but that we are proactive. We should have a long-term strategy or plan for agriculture and rural development. We see agriculture purely in economic terms and we have failed to develop a social policy for farmers and farming in general.

We were not able to fill our agricultural colleges 12 or 18 months ago and the numbers have been declining. That gave us a startling bolt in that it indicated that things were not rosy. There were a number of factors outside our control which accentuated this trend and we cannot blame people here for external factors. Nevertheless, the warning signals were there for us in that we should ensure a social policy is developed. That is why I was critical of the Minister in relation to the installation aid scheme.

We have one of the oldest farming structures with only 12 per cent of our farming population under the age of 35. On average our farmers are about 15 years older than their Australian counterparts. It is critical in trying to maintain the number of farm families on the land that we integrate agricultural education in the agricultural colleges with trade developments because young farmers need every assistance in going back to the land. That is why installation aid was such a critical measure. There should be other ways for young farmers to supplement their incomes. The young farmer I mentioned who has 100 acres in beef heifer production does not believe he will have enough income to marry and bring up a family in rural Ireland. That is a very worrying trend.

As I said when speaking to IFA executives a week or so ago, the devil is in the detail. We all know the macro figures as regards the 30 per cent, 20 per cent and 15 per cent price reductions with which we can deal. It is the minute detail which can undermine any gains we make at the negotiation table. We know about the co-financing proposal and our alliance with France has proven extremely useful in this regard. However, I worry about what trade offs the French will exact from us in return. We must be very alert because there is no such thing as a free lunch. While we may build up alliances, they should be mutual and common alliances. I do not like their policy of digressivity because, as the Minister said, it would mean many different things to different sectors and areas. They will not mind in that it would impact least on the wine growing areas and most on our products. While it is fine to take co-financing out of the equation, we must be careful about what parallel developments take place in relation to their negotiating position. That is why I am eager that this matter is fully explained by the Minister.

In addition to our dependence on agriculture, we are certainly a more insular nation than any other in Europe. We have grass based production and we pride ourselves on our environmentally green and clean image but the thrust of the proposals, as formulated, is to favour intensive producers, basically factory farmers. One of the criticisms I have made all along is that we often took that at face value.

I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment in recent weeks to establish an expert working group on agriculture. On milk quotas, we are entitled to an increase of 8.4 per cent. This is non-negotiable and should be distributed to small farmers.

The way in which moneys are distributed should be looked at also. In the last round the beef sector was badly done. There are 100,000 dry stock producers who face desolation unless the method of allocation is changed. There should be tiered payments. According to Ray MacSharry, the system of premiums and subsidies was designed to keep farm families on the land. Some farmers are in receipt of sums as low as £2,500 while others are getting as much as £350,000. The Roscommon study indicates that a slight change would have the effect of increasing incomes by up to 50 per cent. According to the IFA study, conducted by Mr. Jim Phelan, 37,000 farmers have incomes lower than they would receive on the dole. This problem has to be tackled. The Minister will have the unqualified support of the Labour Party in the task that lies ahead.

I wish to share time with Deputy John Brady.

Is that agreed? Agreed.

I share the views of Deputy Penrose on the need to maintain as many farm families as possible on the land. From a rural regeneration and development point of view, every effort should be made to ensure policies are tailored to meet the needs of small and medium-sized producers, without whom rural Ireland would die, and to prevent a continuation of the drift to the east and urban areas.

It is not often realised that agriculture and the food industry continue to play a huge part in the economy. Some 300,000 work full-time or part-time on farms. The sector accounts for one third of net foreign earnings from trade. Agenda 2000 dominates the horizon. The Taoiseach stated recently, "We are not just negotiating for an economic sector, we are negotiating for the incomes of Irish farm families and we are determined to defend the right of Irish farmers to a respectable standard of living".

I compliment the Taoiseach and the Minister on their efforts to boost our case throughout the European Union. The Taoiseach has discussed our concerns and needs in the context of CAP reform and the Agenda 2000 proposals with the other Prime Ministers. The Minister has discussed our concerns in intensive negotiations over many months.

When this issue was debated in the House in November 1997 it was thought that the proposals outlined by Commissioner Fischler would prove damaging to agriculture. It is most disheartening that the proposals currently on the table are even more severe. We wish the Taoiseach and the Minister well.

In excess of £1 billion was paid out in direct payments in 1998. A strong case can be made for a modulated system of payments. It is clear to everyone that they are not targeted properly to make more holdings viable and to preserve more farm families on the land with a proper standard of living. The Minister should argue strongly in favour of a better system. There should be a cut-off point. It is incumbent on the Minister and his officials to highlight the concerns of the farming community about the level of payments.

A few months ago the Minister addressed a North-South dairy conference in Cootehill. It was disturbing to hear the Northern Ireland Minister for Agriculture, Lord Dobbs, speak strongly in favour of doing away with milk quotas. The Minister spoke strongly in favour of their retention. Farmers from Tyrone, Fermanagh and elsewhere in the North were appalled at the efforts of the British Government to do away with quota system which has proved advantageous and should be retained.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this important debate. I compliment the Taoiseach and the Minister on being resolute in their opposition to the Agenda 2000 proposals. I also compliment the farming organisations on the work they have put into their proposals on behalf of farmers.

In the 1972 referendum 83 per cent voted in favour of membership of the EEC, from which Ireland has gained substantial financial benefits through transfers under the Common Agricultural Policy. Consumers have gained indirectly through the reallocation of Exchequer resources. The Common Agricultural Policy has not, however, succeeded in maintaining farm families on the land or in providing food at affordable prices for consumers.

In coming weeks decisions will be made which will have major consequences for rural Ireland. These consequences will determine the economic future of the country. Agriculture has always been crucial to the economic and social fabric of Ireland. It also plays a significant role in the economies of Central and Eastern European countries such as Cyprus which will become part of the EU. In such countries it accounts for more than 20 per cent of the workforce.

The Agenda 2000 proposals are designed to address the problems which will ensure enlargement. Despite the fact that the number of consumers will rise to 500 million, enlargement will bring about an even greater surplus in many products. While Ireland accepts the need for reform, farm incomes and rural economies must be protected. Price reductions must be compensated for and compensation must be fair and equitable.

The Minister has made it clear at meetings of the Council of Ministers that the current proposals would seriously damage Irish agriculture and the economy. He has succeeded in getting an acknowledgement of the importance of beef and milk production to this country. Therefore, the dependence of member states on specific sectors will have to be taken into account.

Ireland's beef producers are faced with difficult problems. Ninety per cent of our production has to be exported. Irish beef is almost 25 per cent cheaper than the European price. Production is vulnerable not only to adverse market conditions but also to adverse weather. The sheepmeat sector must also be vigorously defended.

The proposed changes are not acceptable. The Minister is insisting on a lower price reduction and higher compensation. These changes favour existing production. An effective intervention system must also be maintained to ensure a floor in the market.

Since 1984 the dairy sector has largely benefited from the quota régime. We must maintain EU milk prices by extending the quota system. The proposed 20 per cent reduction in grain production is unacceptable. Any reduction must be compensated for so that growers' incomes are not reduced. A separate base area, including maize silage, must be maintained. Farmers can rest assured that every possible effort will be made by the Government to protect their livelihoods.

I wish to share my time with Deputy McGinley.

Acting Chairman

Is that agreed? Agreed.

The song says: "Now is the Hour". The Minister is a nice man and I like him but the problem is that he is too nice. We have a problem in Europe in the next few weeks as the Minister is not strong enough. We need negotiators in Europe. When we joined the EEC we were promised much and we gained a great deal from membership. Mr. MacSharry and company have taken 50,000 to 60,000 people out of farming which was a disaster despite all the welcomes he received for the plans at the time. We are going to pay the penalty for that over the coming years.

The Minister does not have the support of the Government, the Taoiseach or the Cabinet. We have seen this concerning the fodder scheme and the agriculture crisis here over the past two years. I hope the Minister will take Deputy Deasy to Europe with him next week. When Deputy Deasy was Minister in the 1980s he fought the Irish case and was probably the greatest Minister for Agriculture we ever had. He was probably the Minister who got most from Europe. At that time he had the support of the Taoiseach of the day. The present Minister does not have that support and that worries me. All parties have offered the Minister their support.

If ever a Minister needed to wear the green jersey, this Minister must do so next week. We do not want to see the white flag. We want to see the green flag as this is serious business which will determine the future of agriculture for the next ten to 15 years. Young people do not want to get involved in agriculture. Farmers tell us that their sons or daughters will not take the land at any price. That is serious. If the Minister has to use the veto next week to protect our natural industry then he must do so. It was done in the past and it must be done again.

We have seen how the Americans have bullied half the world. They are now bullying the EU as they want free trade and cheap food. Our farmers must be protected. We cannot expect them to produce beef and sell it below cost. One cannot expect any industry to survive in such circumstances and subsidies will not go on forever. The MacSharry plan sucked us in and now it is going to squeeze us.

The Minister must fight in Europe. There will be no warm welcome for him if he sells the country down the drain. The IFA marched in 28 centres around the country today. Farmers do not want to have to march. They want to be on the land and doing what they love; looking after their land and their stock. They are marching because they are suffering and I cannot understand why Europe is having a go at Irish farmers when the industry is in such a condition.

If we have to use the veto it must be used. If the Minister brings Deputy Deasy with him he will see what can be done for farmers. The current proposals on beef and milk are not on. The IFA has lobbied the Minister and all political parties. That organisation knows what it wants and it will not accept anything proposed by the EU. If we do so we might as well close down rural Ireland and forget about the people, the schools, churches and post offices as it will all be over. This is in the Minister's hands. He has the green jersey on and I will be the first to congratulate him if he does a good job. He is a nice man but he is not the man to do the job as he does not have the support of the Taoiseach or the Government who only think of the Dublin 4 brigade.

The reform of the CAP being negotiated will have a deep and profound influence on the future of Irish agriculture into the next century. The Fischler proposals are for an extension of the CAP reform proposals introduced by Ray MacSharry five years ago. If these proposals are implemented unamended it will mean the net loss of £250 million per annum to Irish agriculture. When we consider the unprecedented crisis in every sector of agriculture this would be a deadly blow to tens of thousands of farming families and would virtually wipe out farming in the west.

The basis of the new proposals is a reduction of 30 per cent in the amount of direct subsidy being paid to beef producers. The effects of this on the western seaboard counties would be devastating. The main farming activities in this region are suckler cow and weanling production for beef processors.

Beef margins are zero now that as little as 74p per pound is being paid by the factories. This compares with £1.27 per pound in January 1985 when Deputy Deasy was Minister. That represents a drop of 50p per pound. In real terms that is more than £1 per pound. Has any other sector suffered such a drastic drop in income during the same period?

Recent statistics in Donegal indicate that 60 per cent of farmers are over 50 years of age and less than 1 per cent have any third level farming certification. The most likely scenario is that by the year 2005 there will be approximately 3,500 farmers left in County Donegal, 200 of whom will be commercial and the remainder part-time. At present, there are over 8,000 farmers in the county.

This type of farming structure is guaranteed to reduce the input of agriculture to GDP and will have a devastating effect on the maintenance of the rural population in County Donegal and other western seaboard counties. It would be incomprehensible if the Government supported or in any way allowed these structural reforms in agriculture to be confirmed by the European Commission. The Government's agenda in these negotiations must be to maintain and reinvigorate the rural population of this State. This will involve a focused integration of the Departments of Agriculture and Food, Social, Community and Family Affairs and Enterprise, Trade and Employment working to a coherent plan of rural regeneration.

The American experiment of free market farming, which was much vaunted over the past five to ten years, has proved an unmitigated disaster. The United States Government had to bail out 80 per cent of its farmers with more than $3 billion in aid. We must learn the lesson of this American experience and ensure that the requisite level of subsidies for Irish farmers is maintained over the next ten years. Concurrent with the maintenance of subsidies, a major educational programme is necessary to upgrade the farming skills and management experience of those involved in farming at a primary level. The production of a quality assured, marketable and well presented product will ensure the survival of the maximum number of farmers and also allow agriculture to maintain its vital position in generating total GNP.

The Minister has a major job to do in the next few weeks. The future of many farming families is in the balance and the result of the Minister's negotiations in Brussels will determine how they live in the coming years and into the next century. I wish the Minister luck. All eyes will be on him and he must endeavour to get the best bargains possible for agriculture. Farmers have been the salt of the earth and the backbone of the economy for generations.

I take issue with Deputy Ring. I would describe him as a nice person but his statement that the Minister for Agriculture and Food, Deputy Walsh, does not have the support of the Taoiseach and his Government colleagues is wrong.

What about the fodder scheme?

That is utter nonsense and the Deputy knows it.

Acting Chairman

Deputy Collins without interruption, please.

This is too serious an issue on which to play politics. It is time the Deputy recognised reality. He should know that the Taoiseach met Mr. Fischler this week and told him that the proposals were not acceptable to the Government.

If the Commission's proposals were adopted in their current form, farm incomes would be reduced by £260 million a year and there would be a loss of £600 million to the economy. A total of 50,000 farm families would be non-viable within five years and 20,000 non-farm jobs would be lost. These figures were given to us by the IFA in the Shelbourne Hotel last week when we met its representatives. On the basis of those figures, the Fischler proposals must be rejected.

The debate on Agenda 2000 could not be more timely. The 15 member states of the European Union are engaged in widespread discussions on the policies which will be pursued by the EU post-1999. I wish to put the concept of Agenda 2000 into context. The phrase Agenda 2000 encompasses the reform of various EU policies so that the process of enlargement of the EU can take place in as smooth and streamlined a manner as possible.

Six countries – Hungary, Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Estonia and Cyprus – have begun accession negotiations with the European Union. These talks are likely to proceed for some time, but it is envisaged that the next enlargement of the EU will take place some time between 2004 and 2006. The real issue which must be resolved is how much the European Union will spend on the enlargement process and the net effects of EU policies which will operate in Ireland in the future.

The European Union budget, which is worth up to £80 billion, is raised by means of a contribution from each member state of 1.2 per cent of its GDP. Some member states, notably Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands and Austria, believe that they are contributing too much to the EU annual budget and they want their respective contributions reduced. While this issue needs to be addressed in a balanced and reasoned manner, one option which cannot be considered is the possibility of renationalising the Common Agricultural Policy within the remit of individual member states.

One proposal which has surfaced in this regard is the possibility that 25 per cent of all premia payments be paid by each member state of the European Union to its farmers. I am totally opposed to such a proposal because it would lead to the ultimate fragmentation and disintegration of the Common Agricultural Policy. The CAP has survived because it has universal applicability across the territories of the European Union. If in 2000 25 per cent of all CAP payments had to be made by a particular country, what would stop the EU from forcing that country to pay 50 per cent or 75 per cent of all premia payments to its farmers in the future?

The Common Agricultural Policy needs to be reformed but in a manner which protects the family farm unit and maintains young farmers working and entering the agricultural profession. It is not right or proper that 80 per cent of all CAP payments go directly to 20 per cent of farmers. This imbalance needs to be rectified in the context of CAP reform post-1999. The Common Agricultural Policy also needs to be changed in a manner which ensures that rural development programmes such as Leader II continue, as well as financing more environmentally friendly farming initiatives such as the rural environmental protection scheme.

When one refers to CAP reform in the context of the Agenda 2000 programme, one must recall the severity of the price cuts which the European Commission is seeking to impose. The Commission wants a price cut in the beef sector of 30 per cent, a cut in dairy products of 15 per cent and a cut in cereals of 20 per cent. Farmers can only agree to price reductions if appropriate compensatory measures are put in place. Such compensation measures are not included in the Agriculture Commissioner's reform package. Lowering agricultural prices in Europe in line with world prices can only be agreed if adequate compensation measures are implemented at the same time. One must not forget the problems which farmers are currently experiencing. There have been wholesale reductions in the price of beef and lamb while the BSE crisis and bad weather have also contributed to the difficulties of farmers.

Initiatives were put in place to ensure that the Single Market would succeed. Ireland also benefited from decisions taken when the Maastricht Treaty was implemented in 1992. The single European currency will not succeed unless the vast majority of members states of the EU are able to participate in the new régime which came on stream in 1999.

I welcome the debate on the implications for Ireland of the Agenda 2000 programme. I wish the Taoiseach, the Minister for Agriculture and Food and the Government well in the negotiations which will continue. However, the Government must be realistic and specific.

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