Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Mar 1999

Vol. 501 No. 5

National Disability Authority Bill, 1998 [ Seanad ] : Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The publication of the National Disability Authority Bill and the provisions included in it should signal an important step forward for the rights of people with disability and an important stepping up of the quality and quantity of services for them. I am not at all confident this Bill will live up to expectations or what the authority will mean for them.

The function of the authority is mainly to advise the Minister on a range of issues affecting people with disability, including the co-ordination and development of policy. The authority is also to have an important function in researching issues confronting people with disability and in advising the Minister on those issues.

It is not spelled out in the Bill how enforcement of standards will come into play. People with disability often have a terrible time trying to access services in a dignified way. They meet obstacles where there should be none. The simplest of tasks that able-bodied people take for granted, such as, getting on buses, flagging down and getting into a taxi, or ordering a taxi, are hugely problematic for people with disability. Agencies and companies, both private and public, have been extremely negligent of the need to provide for that significant section of our people who have a disability in some area of their lives. It is not good enough that only weeks ago a person in a wheelchair did not have the facility to book a taxi designed to carry a wheelchair.

The authority is given functions in advising on these matters but on the question of who implements and enforces the standards that are agreed to be necessary to make life better for people with disability the Bill is silent. Local authorities have an important role, in the context of buildings, streets and so on, in making life easier for people with disability, but who will police that? Bringing in this Bill in isolation from the Bill setting up Comhairle does not allow for an integrated discussion of all aspects that relate to making life easier for people with disability.

Another concern which arises in connection with all Bills setting up authorities, state boards, and so on is that it provides for the entire membership of the authority, bar one, to be appointed by the Minister of the day. It provides that the members should be people with disability or families or carers of such people or people in the field. However, why should the right be given exclusively to the Minister to appoint all the members? Why is there not a procedure to democratically elect people from those groups, the carers, people with disability, the many fine organisations that, in a voluntary capacity generally, provide many desperately needed services for people with disability? Why is there not a democratic right for those organisations to elect their representatives to the authority, rather than giving the Minister the right to select the person he or she thinks is best? For decades, the four or five political parties that have dominated Government since the foundation of the State, have been stuffing boards with people who are just party hacks and not necessarily people with any particular skill or expertise in areas covered by whatever board or authority is being set up. I find this extremely objectionable.

Miss M. Wallace

I wish to interject, lest the Deputy's comments should reflect on the National Disability Authority members who were announced last July. I hope, and I presume, that the Deputy is not attempting to cast a reflection on the members of the authority. The Deputy is confused between the elected Irish Council of People with Disabilities and the National Disability Authority, which are two different organisations.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): I do not know the individuals involved. I strenuously object to the principle of always giving Ministers the power to appoint at their sole discretion, rather than having a democratic procedure which allows organisations, in this case voluntary organisations, to elect their own representatives to the authority.

Mrs. Barnes

I welcome the Bill. It is appropriate that the Minister of State, Deputy Wallace, introduced it because she has had an interest in, and been committed to, people with disabilities for a long time. I also pay tribute to the previous Administration, which set up the Commission on the Status of People with Disabilities. As a result of much discussion and the participation of groups with the necessary expertise, experience and skill, the commission brought forward recommendations, which, I hope, have been translated into the Bill.

Traditionally, people with disabilities were told what was good for them, but I hope the new authority and the equality authority, which will further resource, support and monitor the disability authority, will put in place mechanisms whereby people will be able to inform us about what they believe is good for them rather than being told by us. That is the greatest acknowledgment we can give people with disabilities who have been sidelined for many years.

All of us are guilty of not displaying enough awareness about these people and we have spoken over their heads and ignored them. Work has been done by the Department and the commission, which will be continued by the authority, to make the public aware that the lives and careers of those with disabilities must be acknowledged, resourced and supported. This, of course, should also take into consideration the huge role played by many carers in helping people to participate fully in everyday life.

I had the privilege of serving as a Senator and am aware that the passage of legislation through the Seanad allows for indepth discussion and amendment. The concept of mainstreaming is proposed in the Bill, which will bring people in from the cold. However, 40 per cent of people with disabilities are of working age and, with the aid of resources provided under the Bill, I hope they will be able to develop careers and be financially independent. Tribute must be paid to the voluntary and community organisations which are not co-ordinated or resourced to the extent the new authority will be. However, the co-ordination of these organisations and others, such as FÁS, will be mainstreamed in a way that has never happened before and that is positive.

There is huge potential, with the advances in technology through research and monitoring, to improve the quality of life of people with disabilities. It is not just a matter of improving support systems. Many Members spoke about accessibility and so on. The Minister is pursuing the issue with great energy, but incredible pro gress has been made with audiovisual aids. A professor in the UK is experimenting with a microchip to allow him communicate with people with disabilities. We are only on the doorstep of this technology.

Investment in the authority should centre on research and development because it is the fastest and most productive way to enable people with disabilities, who did not have the opportunity previously, to gain independence. I look forward to the results of the research. An independent agency is needed to concentrate fully on this area.

Regardless of what Government is in office, research is essential because it will enable the necessary legislation to be introduced and show the need for resources to support the objectives of bodies such as the National Disability Authority. The authority's aim is to enable people with disabilities to control their own lives and to make them aware that resources are available to realise their potential.

I welcome the fact that a report will be laid before the Houses each year. Many reports are laid before the Houses annually and, while they are valuable, they lie on dusty shelves and are not debated. The disability authority report should be debated annually so that members can monitor progress and lobby for what is needed.

When will the equality authority be set up? The disability authority is the first step in that direction, but the grievance procedure which people with disabilities need will come under equality authority. An expansion of resources, staff and professional experts is also required for that authority. We will lobby the Minister of State in that regard.

In many other areas attempts have been made to meet the needs of people and to deal with discrimination. Through the years various supports, resources and payments have emanated from a variety of Departments. The child care issue is one example of which we are all aware and the expert working group highlighted that it did not lie within the purview or resources of one Department. It is to be hoped an interdepartmental committee to deal inclusively with the area under the remit of the Bill will be established, with each Department taking responsibility and ceding power where needs be to allow for a more co-ordinated approach. Such a committee has been mooted in the Minister of State's speech and various Departments will have an input in the areas of health, education, social welfare and the environment. The last mentioned is important because planning is of enormous consequence in this area. The establishment of such an interdepartmental co-ordinating committee, especially in the early days, and perhaps headed up by the Minister of State's Department, would be tremendously effective. The co-ordination the Bill attempts to achieve would be made more effective if such an interdepartmental committee were established.

Given that the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Wallace, is steering the Bill through the House and has a significant input into it, I find it ironic that Ministers are still referred to in legislation in the masculine form. It could be that the senior Minister in her Department is being alluded to, but I imagine it is the case in the drafting of all legislation which comes to the House. I will continue to stress this point, especially given that women Ministers and staff have a considerable input into this legislation. Perhaps the Minister of State might examine that matter in future and ensure the language of legislation is gender proofed.

Other Members have drawn from their experiences in their constituencies, and national organisations have lobbied Members about their needs. In my intervention in Deputy Callely's speech earlier, I was not trying to make a party political point and I am sure the Minister of State understands that. I was trying to say that, given the improvement in the economy, the budget for the structures being put in place is a start, but we all agree that it is only that. One has only to speak to carers and people waiting for respite, day beds or even just communication, information and support, to discover that a considerable continuing investment is needed. Minorities in Ireland have suffered because of the country's historically poor economic and employment performance. I would like to believe they can now come in from the cold and, in that regard, affirmative action is needed. One recommendation the new authority could bring forward is some form of affirmative action. We need to give grant incentives and establish some form of recognition for businesses, especially private ones, which quickly improve access for and offer employment placement to disabled people to fulfil their potential.

We should all find it sobering that the Constitution can sometimes act against our best intentions in emphasising the rights of minorities over those of the more powerful and privileged. That is an area which must be examined. Attempts by the former Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Mervyn Taylor, to introduce specific legislation encountered difficulties. Constitutional provision in this area is contrary to every principle of the common good, the national interest and the rights of those who most need the protection of the Constitution. That area should be examined soon.

The input of people with disabilities is needed to allow for the better design of houses. A start could be made with public housing and an attempt made in the long-term to put across the message to architects and planners. For example, there is a need for wider doors for ease of access. Even able-bodied people find the planning of houses in terms of the height of sinks and baths, for example, is not just unfriendly but downright hostile at times. The input of more people who have experienced the frustration of dealing with that kind of bad planning and design should be taken into consideration. I hope that is something the new authority will not only examine but in which it will also influence change in line with planning reforms it is hoped will come from the Department of the Environment and Local Government. This is one area which impinges on people's lives more than the greater issues being addressed in the legislation.

While I am aware this matter is more suited to the Department of Education and Science, the mainstreaming of as many children with disabilities as possible into schools, so that they share the same schools, buildings and curriculum, is of paramount importance. It cannot be done without many resources being invested, many extra professional staff and smaller pupil-teacher ratios and groupings. That is an area for which the Minister will need much support and we on this side of the House will support any efforts made to achieve greater resources, especially for remedial support services.

The increase in the budget this year should urge us to begin lobbying now for next year's budget. Perhaps one of the greatest ways of welcoming in the new millennium is by recognising, acknowledging and affording the opportunity for the development of the potential of people who were treated in an horrendous manner in this millennium. Progress has been made, but there have been many victims of the type of terribly cruel behaviour people believed could be inflicted on them. Money would be well spent allowing them reclaim their lives, to gain an independence they have not known and to ensure the next millennium is more inclusive than this one.

Mr. McGrath

I welcome the opportunity of addressing the House on the Bill. I compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Mary Wallace, for bringing it forward. I am aware of her commitment and wish her well in enacting the legislation. The authority should be established on a statutory basis and I welcome its terms of reference and functions as set out in the Bill, such as the co-ordination and development of policy relating to persons with disabilities. I hope the authority will succeed in co-ordinating the many efforts in that regard.

The issue of disability probably spans every Department. Any Department which has dealings with people is probably also involved in dealing with people with disabilities and providing facilities for them. One example is the Department of Education and Science. There is no set of rights for children with disabilities from pre-school to higher education. The wheel has to be re-invented every time.

I hope the Minister of State will exert her influence in the Department of Education and Science to ensure the necessary facilities will be readily available. Parents who wish to send their child with a disability to the local national school hit a brick wall. They are sent from Billy to Jack and do not know to whom they should speak. I know of a child in a wheelchair who was enrolled last Easter in the local national school to start in September. It took well into October to provide a ramp and there was no classroom assistant avail able to help the teacher look after the child whose mother had to go to the school each day at the appointed time to change him. That is unacceptable. Everything should fall into place automatically. The problem is not confined to the primary sector. I am aware of a bright young man in a wheelchair in my own locality who is attending university. It took until Christmas to have the proper facilities provided. This is not fair.

Parents have to take the Department of Education and Science to court to have the rights of their children with disabilities vindicated. There is a long list of cases pending. Taxpayers' money is being wasted in contesting cases. It would be far better to use this money to provide the necessary facilities.

The authority should co-ordinate the development of policy. Much research is being conducted inside and outside the country. The authority should undertake to draw together the conclusions of that research to ensure the best possible facilities are provided. It will advise the Minister on appropriate standards for programmes and services. There is much work to be done in this respect. Too often people with disabilities are treated as the poor relation and do not get a fair crack of the whip. The authority will also advise the Minister on the implementation of standards and codes of practice in programmes and services and liaise with other bodies in the provision of services. Virtually every Department has a role to play in relation to people with disabilities.

In the public service there is a quota system in place. It is expected that 3 per cent of employees will be people with disabilities. Most public bodies can hang their heads in shame. The Oireachtas probably does not reach the quota. Local authorities do not reach it. Deputy Barnes mentioned local authority housing. Those who design local authority housing should be conscious of the needs of people with disabilities.

The make-up of the authority has been mentioned. Section 20 highlights the desirability that a majority of the authority should be persons with disabilities, their representatives, families or carers and, in the case of each member of the authority, he or she should have knowledge or experience, directly or indirectly, of matters pertaining to disability. Members of the authority should know what they are talking about, have first-hand experience of the difficulties people with disabilities encounter and be in a position to give the Minister proper advice to ensure the necessary changes are made.

It all comes down to resources. I acknowledge the Minister of State's bona fides in terms of her concern for people with disabilities but does she have clout at Government level to secure the necessary resources? In many instances autistic children do not have access to the services they require. This should be looked at urgently. The Minister of State should use her good offices to ensure better services are provided.

On the news recently a person in a wheelchair highlighted the difficulties people with disabilities encounter in using public telephones and automatic teller machines. I was ashamed to discover that the person concerned is living in my home town of Mullingar. The telephone he was trying to use was installed in recent months in a building owned by the local authority on which in excess of £500,000 has been spent. I thought it had been tastefully renovated. Architects should be more aware of the services required. Unless they do so, we will make mistakes such as those which were shown up on television the other night. It is something of which we must be conscious.

Local authorities have become conscious of the need to dish footpaths, but another area for which the local authorities have responsibility is the parking of cars on footpaths. Sometimes I am guilty of this too. We park on footpaths to run into the shop and pick up something which we think is urgent. If somebody comes along in a wheelchair, he or she cannot pass. Two wheelchair users live at the top of the street where I have my office. Often they come down the street and cannot go any further because there is a car parked on the footpath. That is totally unacceptable. We must be conscious of the need to keep those footpaths clear. The local authority's traffic wardens should be ruthless in enforcing the clearway on footpaths for wheelchair users.

There is also a difficulty regarding car parking spaces specially designated for wheelchair users and people with disabilities. Time and again when these people try to get into those spaces somebody else, who does not have the sticker which entitles them to use such spaces, has parked in them. That is also unacceptable.

There are difficulties in many schools which were built in a different era. The school in which I taught for 20 years is totally inaccessible for somebody in a wheelchair. It is a two-storey building which was designed to be a three-storey building at a later stage. We must be conscious of design and ensure that people can gain access to those places.

However, all is not lost. Tremendous work is being done in many areas. Earlier this week I received a nice letter from a regular correspondent who is wheelchair bound. He has a minibus which gives him a certain degree of mobility. He writes to me regularly about difficulties which he experiences in using the footpaths, etc.. In his letter, he stated that I would be surprised to hear from him on a positive note. He had gone on a conducted tour of the Mullingar arts centre, a new development in what used be the old county hall on which there was considerable expenditure and which is totally wheelchair accessible. I commend him for taking the time to write and say "Well done". I am a director of the centre and I suppose that was the context in which he wrote to me. He said it was nice to see that things are coming up to scratch at last. It means he now has an opportunity of attending plays, shows, concerts, etc., in a fine facility. Until now, his access to that building was limited. The thought which has gone into designing the new development has made it possible for him to enjoy an outing.

We have also renovated the swimming pool in Mullingar. Shamefully, an order placed last August with a company to supply a hoist to enable people with disabilities to gain access to the pool is still not in place. It is disgraceful that disabled people should be treated in that way. I have raised the matter regularly with the council and, unfortunately, the company does not exhibit any urgency in completing the job. It would not be tolerated if it was for other people. Why should it be tolerated when it is for people with disabilities?

I welcome this Bill. It is a step forward which will improve the outlook for and the prospects of people with disabilities.

A number of groups and organisations have over the years provided facilities for disabled people, even when it was not popular. Earlier somebody mentioned the many religious organisations who for years cared for the disabled when virtually nobody else did so. While they may not be getting good press in many respects at present, we must never speak ill of them or forget the debt we owe them for their tremendous work in caring for those people. As in our own field, in any walk of life one will have difficulties with a small percentage of people. We should acknowledge the religious orders which did so much for people with disabilities.

I commend the Irish Wheelchair Association for its tremendous work over the years on a limited budget. In more recent times it has had access to FÁS workers. The association provides a valuable outlet with facilities and opportunities for people who are wheelchair bound. I marvel at the work of the association over the years. Many of its members worked for years in a voluntary basis. They helped to give a day out or a couple of days out to people less fortunate than themselves. It has grown into a more comprehensive service thanks to the dedication of a few people, such as Mr. Peter Stokes, of whom Minister Mary Wallace will be aware. He brought along many others who helped out and they are now taking his place in other ways. I want to mention, in particular, a young lady in my area, Ms Veronica Irwin, who does fantastic work and of course St. Peter's Hospital at Castlepollard, which the Minister visited not too long ago, dedicated entirely to people with disabilities.

I welcome the Bill. I hope the authority will have the kind of clout it deserves and that the Minister will bring forward the badly needed investment and facilities. I hope investment in education, regulations in relation to new buildings, etc., will flow from this authority and that its recommendations will be responded to by Government with the necessary investment. I hope the question of access to technology for disabled people will be addressed also.

Those of us involved in politics, many of whom have spoken on the Bill, must ask how accessible our offices are in the constituencies. As Members of this House, we have a particular responsibility to ensure that they are fully accessible. I am glad to say that my office is accessible, but we should all look into our hearts in that regard.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Miss M. Wallace)

I begin by commenting on the positive note of Deputy McGrath's contribution, where he stated that attitudes to people with disabilities are changing in society. I welcome the positive comments of Deputies on all sides of the House with regard to the legislation and the future of the National Disability Authority.

The access awareness question raised by Deputy McGrath is important because it opens up a whole new world for people with disabilities. The concern expressed by Deputy Barnes about the term "he/she" in the legislation is important. We will review the matter again before Committee Stage. She also asked me about the timeframe for the Equality Authority. On Monday next, 8 March, the Minister will announce the members of the Equality Authority and the timeframe.

Deputy O'Sullivan asked about the status of the disabilities Bill. I regret I had to leave the Chamber during the Deputy's contribution to deal with a child care question but I heard it on the monitor. As the Deputy will know the Employment Equality Bill and the Equal Status Bill were found to be unconstitutional. We hoped to produce the disabilities Bill long before now but because both these Bills had to be reviewed, that presented a difficulty in terms of producing the Bill. The Bill is on the agenda of the Department and will be dealt with following this Bill and other elements of the equality legislation.

Deputy Fitzgerald and Deputy O'Sullivan referred to the independence of the chair of the authority. Section 31 provides for the standard safeguard whereby members of the authority shall withdraw from and take no part in the business of the authority in which they have an interest. There should be no concern about that.

Deputy Higgins was concerned about the members appointed to the authority. All the members were appointed because of their interest and expertise in the area of disability. The Deputy also expressed views with regard to the Comhairle Bill. That is a separate issue to the Bill before the House.

Deputy Stanton was concerned about the title proposed for the authority, an issue that arose in the commission's recommendation. The Deputy will be pleased to know that the title National Disability Authority was proposed by people with disabilities.

Deputies Browne and Finucane referred to the importance of FÁS. Their concerns about FÁS will be included in the new arrangements. Deputy McGuinness expressed concerns about employers. The work adaptation grant is available to employers wishing to employ people with disabilities.

I thank the many Deputies who contributed to this positive debate and I look forward to a more detailed debate on Committee Stage.

Question put and agreed to.