Vol. 503 No. 6
1 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the reason a person from his Department was appointed as secretary of the national stadium steering committee; the length of time the secretary has devoted to this task; and the cost to his Department [9576/99]
The Government announced on 13 October last that it had agreed to commission a feasibility study for the development of a stadium for the new century. The concept for the stadium involves a design and quality that will make an inspirational statement about Ireland and its people as we enter the new century.
A consortium of consultants led by Price Waterhouse Coopers has been appointed to conduct the feasibility study. The study, which will be completed by mid-September, will assess the likely demand for and benefit of a major new sports stadium seating up to 80,000 people and catering for a wide range of sports and entertainment events.
I am delighted that we are getting this feasibility study under way. As we move into a new century, and at a time of improved economic prosperity, it is right that world class sports and entertainment facilities are available to our citizens. The nature of this high prestige initiative is such that it will require cross-departmental and cross-organisational co-ordination and my Department is best placed to do that. A significant time commitment is involved and the official who acts as secretary of the stadium steering committee has undertaken this task in addition to his normal duties. In addition to the administrative costs arising from the work of the steering committee, the main cost to my Department will be that of the feasibility study, which will be IR£380,033 or 485,542 euros.
Given that Croke Park is being developed with public and private funds and the FAI is going to develop another national stadium at Newlands Cross without the aid of public funds, what is the need for a third national stadium?
The feasibility study will show whether there is a requirement. Deputy Bruton knows that Croke Park is for one sport. It has neither indoor capacity, training areas or warm-up facilities, nor does its overall plan envisage such features. The model which the FAI has shown me concentrates on the concert area and its proposal has not yet been brought to completion. Unfortunately, we have no major stadium to compare with those elsewhere in the world.
Given that the two most popular field sports, Gaelic games and soccer, both have a national stadium either in place or at an advanced stage of planning, what major sports does the Taoiseach expect to use this third stadium, on which he has already spent almost £500,000 in consultation fees?
At this stage we do not have a national stadium.
Is the Taoiseach saying Croke Park is not national?
It is used for one sport.
Yes, the national game.
It will be a fine stadium but it is only for one sport. It does not even have a running track.
I am surprised at the Taoiseach making that comment.
I thought Deputy Bruton was going to hold the Olympics in Ireland.
Deputy Molloy has run his race.
I have seen the costings of the FAI proposal. When the association met me it mentioned its difficulties in raising the money but I hope it can do so. It is encountering those difficulties because its estimate of £45 million for the construction of the stadium represents only the basic cost. I understand the capacity of the stadium will be approximately 35,000.
It will be 40,000.
We do not have a national stadium. For many years we have used Santry Stadium, Tolka Park and Dalymount Park, but none of these venues is suitable for national events. Having played rugby, Deputy Bruton will be aware that the IRFU is also experiencing major difficulties.
I never played at Lansdowne Road.
The plans put forward by the IRFU and the FAI did not work.
Since his proposal predated that of the FAI and given that he has had meetings with that organisation, does the Taoiseach envisage that public funds will be made available to the FAI to bring its Newlands Cross proposal to fruition? With regard to his inspirational statement for the new century, when is it proposed to begin construction at Newlands Cross?
The feasibility study is due to be completed on 18 September. I had a meeting with representatives of the FAI some time ago and we agreed to keep in touch. There is not much point in having further meetings until the feasibility study is completed.
Is funding being made available by the Government in respect of the FAI proposal? Is such funding contingent on whether, in light of the completion of the Government's feasibility study, there is a need for a third stadium? In other words, will no money be made available to the FAI if a third stadium is to be constructed?
We will wait until the feasibility study is completed before making a decision in respect of the FAI proposal. I believe the FAI will seek funding, on a pro rata basis, in line with that given to the GAA for the development of Croke Park. However, the FAI is not seeking money in respect of its current proposal which deals only with basic costs and does not refer to ancillary facilities. I have seen different reports in the newspapers regarding the cost of such facilities and the FAI provided me with its estimate of the costs involved. However, it is the responsibility of that organisation to place that figure in the public domain. The proposal only contains plans for the basic stadium structure, the pitch and the roll-in centre. It would cost substantially more for the organisation to build the kind of stadium it desires.
The Taoiseach is misinformed if he believes the FAI proposal concerns only a basic structure – it involves the construction of an ultra-modern, state of the art, building, the prototype of which is in Holland.
There is only one other of its kind in Europe.
Does the Taoiseach agree that it is wrong to spend £400,000 on a feasibility study when organisations throughout the country are crying out for resources to develop basic facilities? In light of the GAA's rights as the owner of Croke Park, did the Taoiseach engage in discussions with that organisation regarding the possible multi-functional use of Croke Park? Surely this possibility should have been explored before any commitments were given because time, effort and resources would have been saved.
The Deputy served in a ministerial capacity in this area and he is aware that ten years ago I, among others, tried to convince the three major sporting bodies to go down that road—
They never gave me "no" for an answer.
—but they decided not to do so. Unfortunately, the Deputy was not able to encourage them to proceed in that direction.
I did not invest £20 million unconditionally.
No, the Deputy did nothing.
That is a pathetic response. Obviously the Taoiseach is under pressure.
Nothing was done for the FAI, the GAA, the IRFU or the national athletics body. At least we will have a good GAA stadium.
I asked a serious question and I would like a serious answer.
The serious answer is that far more money than ever before is being invested in sport.
Was it explored before the money was spent?
It was considered, explored and rejected many times.
Why do we need to spend £380,000 to find out these things? If the Taoiseach knows as much as he says he does, surely he could find these answers without giving £380,000 to a firm of accountants. Is there a fixation in Government on the need to have somebody with an important sounding name under the guise of a consultant to tell it what it knows already? What is the point of spending £380,000 on this feasibility study? Is it not the case that the information is available, that the obstacles are political – not party-political – in an organisational sense and that this feasibility study will not throw any light on whether the GAA is willing to change its mind because it does not have the competence to do so?
The work of the feasibility study consists of examining the financial and procurement arrangements of building a national stadium. We must take account of what already exists, what is needed, the cost and how it would develop and be used. All those matters have to be worked out. A proper study on a national stadium has not been undertaken since the foundation of the State.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that money will not be available to the FAI for its project until the feasibility study is completed? Has it asked for money to date? What is the Government's attitude to it? Regarding the proposal for a third stadium, or the Taoiseach's inspirational statement for the new century proposal, have moneys been committed from any individual that would form the bedrock of funding for that proposal?
The FAI's proposal was received after the Government's announcement. The FAI is continuing to develop its proposal. It has not sought any money. I understand it will not require money for the first phase, the basic stadium, but it will require money if work is advanced in line with its model and plans.
What is the Taoiseach's attitude to that?
If the State were not to go ahead with that, it would probably be entitled to argue it should get the same percentage input as other sports, mainly the GAA, have got. That is the case it has put forward and, if that were the case, it should be considered. What was the Deputy's other question?
Is there a financial commitment for the funding of a third stadium?
As I said last year, J. P. McManus said that if the Government went ahead with it, he would give a substantial donation and a figure was mentioned at that time.
Has the Taoiseach subsequently explored that with him?
We have not explored it with him.
He is on the committee.
He will be in Punchestown tomorrow.
He should bring his cheque book with him.
I believe he will honour the commitment he gave.
Will the Taoiseach agree that raising money for the FAI project, in terms of the money being made available, will depend on whether it assumes the third stadium will go ahead? Obviously, the three stadia would compete with one another for a limited number for mobile events. Is the Taoiseach's feasibility study based on an assumption that the FAI is or is not going ahead with its project? Will he accept that if it assumes it is going ahead, that will reduce the amount of business that will be available for the national stadium and vice versa? Will the Taoiseach agree it would have been better to undertake a study which included the FAI rather than have independent studies carried out?
I do not want to interfere with the consultants in this matter, but they will probably have to consider it both ways. It might be their view that if we were to have a soccer stadium and a Gaelic stadium, there would not be room for another one. That might well be their view. Traditionally, the FAI was anxious to work with other sporting bodies, including the IRFU. The FAI worked for a long time on the proposal for the Phoenix Park racecourse. It came in several months after the Government announced its proposal and I asked the FAI about that. Because so much time has been lost on this matter over the years and there has been so much inaction, the FAI had not been able to reach agreement with other bodies and so it wanted to move forward. My personal view is that if all the sports were acting together it would be far better, but that is not easy to achieve.
If this new proposed stadium is not linked to any particular sport, what type of management does the Taoiseach envisage it will have? Who will be responsible for its year to year running and who would pick up the tab if there was a deficit? I think the Taoiseach will agree, from his own experience, it is better to have a linkage with particular sports organisations which can organise and manage such things as stadia.
I agree with that and they are precisely the kind of people who are involved in this consortium. We will work all that out. All domestic and international sports – including the GAA, the FAI, the IRFU and athletics – are represented on the committee to make sure all those matters are examined. The issue has to be thought out properly by experts who know the business and who will provide a truthful assessment of whether it can be done.
Does the Taoiseach agree that the site selected by the FAI is an excellent one? Does he also agree that no feasibility study is necessary to establish what is the conventional wisdom, that a city with one million people does not require three national stadia? Would it not be better to spend £40, £50, £60 or £70 million on the provision of badly needed facilities along the lines the Minister of State, Deputy Flood, announced on a smaller scale yesterday?
It is a national stadium for 3.8 million people and, hopefully, over the next 20 years, more than four million. It is not for Dublin alone. We will see from the results of the study whether it stands up. That is the benefit of undertaking such a study. As regards the use of stadia nowadays, we increasingly see Croke Park being used from the period Easter to September. While I know there is a museum and other facilities there, effectively, the pitch it is not used at other times. Wembley and other stadia tend to be used for many different purposes. That is what we should be trying to do in this country.
