Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 May 1999

Vol. 504 No. 2

Priority Questions. - Judges' Pension Arrangements.

Brendan Howlin

Question:

31 Mr. Howlin asked the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the cost of funding the proposed pension arrangements based on the actuarial information available to his Department in view of his statement to Dáil Éireann on 21 April 1999 in which he outlined proposed pension arrangements for the former Mr. Justice Hugh O'Flaherty and the former Mr. Justice Cyril Kelly; the undertakings, if any, given verbally or in writing to them in regard to their pensions, either before or after their resignations had been received; and the conditions, if any, attached, or planned to be attached, to any offer made to them regarding pension arrangements. [11569/99]

Mr. O'Donoghue:

In my statement to the House on 20 April I outlined the proposed pension arrangements for the former Mr. Justice Hugh O'Flaherty and the former Mr. Justice Cyril Kelly. In the case of Mr. O'Flaherty the capital value of the proposed ex gratia pension arrangement of £40,000 per year commencing on 18 April 1999 is estimated by the Department of Finance at £699,000. In the case of Mr. Kelly the capital value of the proposed ex gratia pension arrangement of £30,000 per year commencing on 21 April 1999 is estimated, also by the Department of Finance, at £665,000.

No undertakings whatever were given verbally or in writing to the two former judges in regard to the pensions they would receive, either before or after their resignations had been received. The Government agreed that the pensions I have mentioned should be proposed for payment, subject to Dáil approval. That approval will be requested formally when I seek to have the necessary pensions legislation passed by both Houses. I hope to introduce this legislation in the near future.

No conditions were attached, proposed, or planned to be attached to their pension arrangements. I am formally advised by the Attorney General that it would be unconstitutional to include in legislation – providing for pensions or payments to judges or former judges – provision that payment would be dependent on the individual judges complying with a requirement that they provide some explanation or self-justifi cation or make themselves available to give evidence before an Oireachtas Committee.

Mr. Howlin:

The Minister has indicated that there is no legal obligation to pay more than the statutory entitlement to either of these individuals. Why was an enhanced offer made, who negotiated it and had the specific deal been approved by the Government? Did I understand the Minister correctly that legislation rather than a motion will be introduced to give effect to this deal?

Mr. O'Donoghue:

As of now it looks as if legislation will be introduced, but the House will have to approve the deal. As to why the Government decided to pay pensions to the judges, it took the view that, from the information available, the errors of judgments by three individuals, including these two individuals, were quite serious but took into account that all three had taken the honourable course by resigning and had collectively helped to avert a difficult if not unprecedented position, from a constitutional standpoint. The view was therefore taken that some recognition should be given to this in their severance arrangements. All three individuals and their families are facing enormous losses on their loss of office. I am sure Deputy Howlin will accept that the two former judges and the former county registrar were entitled, as a result of their period of service, to a lump sum and a pension at their respective retirement ages. The Oireachtas will be required to approve any arrangement and it is a matter for the parties and Deputies.

Mr. Howlin:

On a previous occasion the Minister indicated there was no contact between the former Mr. Justice O'Flaherty and his Department in relation to these matters, but there was speculation that there had been negotiations on behalf of the former Mr. Justice Kelly. Will he confirm that there was such negotiation and say who conducted it on behalf of Mr. Kelly and on behalf of the Department?

Mr. O'Donoghue:

There were negotiations relating to the case of the former Mr. Justice Kelly but the arrangements for him had not been finalised at the time he resigned – no deal had been completed with him. My understanding is that Mr. Kelly's negotiations were conducted by his legal advisers. They faced a counsel acting for the Attorney General, who was briefed by a senior official in my Department, who in turn conferred with me and senior officials of the Department of Finance throughout. The eventual figure struck was agreed by the Government.

At no point did either Mr. Justice O'Flaherty, as he then was, or Mr. Michael Quinlan, the former county registrar, seek a pension from the Government. Both resigned without broaching the matter.

Mr. Howlin:

The Minister used the phrase "the eventual figure struck" in the arrangements for the former Mr. Justice Kelly. Will the Minister confirm whether a figure was put to Mr. Justice Kelly in advance of his agreement to resign? Did the judge resign on the basis of an understanding that an enhanced pension of the order indicated to the House would be made available to him?

Mr. O'Donoghue:

The figure was struck by the Government and negotiations were conducted with Mr. Justice Kelly's legal advisers in regard to the amount he should obtain. However, it is not true to say that a deal was struck or concluded.

An Ceann Comhairle:

We must proceed to Question No. 32 because we have used up more than six minutes on Question No. 31.