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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 1999

Vol. 505 No. 7

Ceisteanna–Questions. - Departmental Contracts.

Paul McGrath

Question:

3 Mr. McGrath asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs if his attention has been drawn to the importance to An Post of revenue earned from the processing of payment orders from his Department; if his attention has further been drawn to the anxiety of postmasters and postmistresses for the future of post offices, particularly rural offices; his views on whether the future of many post offices is dependent on securing a contract from his Department for the continued processing of these payment orders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14324/99]

Thomas P. Broughan

Question:

4 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Social, Community and Family Affairs the proposals, if any, he has for the continued use by his Department of post offices and sub-post offices for the payment of social welfare and other schemes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14629/99]

I propose to take Questions Nos. 3 and 4 together.

An Post is the main supplier of payment delivery services to my Department's customers. In 1998 some 45.7 million social welfare payments were cashed in post offices at a cost to my Department of about £36 million pounds. This represents 80 per cent of all social welfare payments. I fully appreciate the significance to An Post of the revenues it earns from supplying payments delivery services to my Department. Equally, I appreciate the role which An Post and its staff continue to play in meeting the needs of my Department's customers.

The Government has adopted a two-part strategy which is designed to underpin its commitment to a viable post office network. The first part of this strategy will be the renewal, for a period of three years, of the contract under which my Department purchases social welfare payment delivery services from An Post. This decision will maintain a revenue stream for An Post from the services which it sells to my Department. The second element of the strategy is, as announced by my colleague, the Minister for Public Enterprise, to further develop the post office network so it can, in the future, provide a new one-stop-shop service to citizens. In this context, it is intended that facilities will be provided in post offices in some areas to enable, for example, the payment of electricity bills and the purchase of airline tickets. It is also intended to install public access points to the Internet and other technology related facilities. An interdepartmental committee is being established to further these initiatives. These developments are a clear indication of this Government's continuing commitment to ensuring a commercially viable future for the post office network.

My policy in relation to social welfare payment delivery systems generally is to provide a modern, cost-effective and convenient payments delivery service for my Department's customers. In recent years An Post has undertaken a counter modernisation programme and the extension of the contract for social welfare payments will enable the company to further develop its facilities to meet this challenge.

I thank the Minister for his reply. We welcome this initiative as rural post offices play a very important role throughout the country. The Minister has indicated that post offices will be provided with facilities to do a lot more business. I hope that is not merely an election gimmick and will be followed through after the election.

The Minister stated that the cost of providing services through An Post is approximately £36 million. When we discussed the social welfare Estimates in committee, the figure outlined on page six of the Estimates for this year was just under £22 million. Why is the £36 million figure commonly used when the reference to An Post outlined in the Estimates is £22 million? Perhaps there is a simple explanation for that.

Does the Minister agree the scare in regard to post office closures emanated from the Minister's public statement on the contract, the advertisement placed in relation to it and the indication that EU law necessitated a particular course of action? Was it not the Minister himself who created the worry about this issue?

In regard to the extension of post office services, the Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture and Food with responsibility for rural development, Deputy Davern, will shortly publish a White Paper on rural development which will incorporate many of the suggestions to which I referred. Much of what he is proposing as Government policy in the White Paper relates to the cultivation of the rural post office network into a one-stop-shop concept. Thus, recent announcements in regard to the further modernisation of the post office network already formed part of proposed Government policy. In effect, we announced those proposals at the same time as the announcement on the contract.

The Deputy raised the £22 million figure with me previously and I have since checked it out. That figure relates to the Exchequer funding required for social assistance payments; the balance of the £36 million figure comes from the social insurance fund which relates to benefit payments generally. The overall figure for the contract is £36 million.

This is one of the first opportunities I have had to refer publicly to this issue as I have been precluded to some extent from commenting on it before now. Deputies, particularly those who have served in Government, will be aware that for any Minister or Department to intervene or show favouritism to a particular side when a Government contract is put out to tender, prior to the awarding of the contract, would leave the Department and the State in the dangerous position of a possible legal action being taken against them by aggrieved parties.

It is important that we provide some kind of historical view on this matter. A five year contract was awarded to An Post in 1992. In 1996 the Government Contracts Committee, under the Government of which the Deputies opposite were members, decided to extend the An Post contract for a period of three years after which time the contract would be awarded following a competitive process and having due regard to the relevant EU public procurement directive.

At that stage, it was recognised and understood that the contract would be put out to public tender and the Department proceeded on that basis. I attempted to ascertain whether legal advice was obtained from the Attorney General or others in 1996 on the issue of whether this service was a social or financial one. As far as I could ascertain, no advice was sought or given at the time.

When the matter of the contract arose, the Department was obliged within a certain timeframe, to publish a pre-indicative notice in the European Journal and that was done on the basis, understood for many years, that the contract would have to be put out to open tender. From as far back as last October or November, the Minister for Public Enterprise, the Taoiseach and I were involved in discussions with the Postmasters' Union and other interested parties as we were aware that this issue was coming up for consideration. Following long and detailed discussions involving the Attorney General, the Government felt confident about awarding the contract to An Post without undergoing the open tender process.

The Attorney General advised that the contract and the nature of the payment delivery service required from An Post does not come under the terms of the directive. I have no doubt Deputies on all sides of the House welcome that. I did not make any statements which indicated one way or another whether this contract would go out to public tender or to An Post. The issue had to be determined and only when I and my Cabinet colleagues sought legal advice, which was not previously sought, was a determination made as to whether the nature of the service was financial or otherwise.

The Minister is coming very close to misleading the House.

The Deputy should ask a question.

Why did 45,000 people on disability benefit receive a letter from the Minister's Department informing them that they would have to go to a bank or building society to collect payments and that, effectively, 1,500 post offices would be closed with the loss of up to 4,000 jobs? I sought to raise this matter on the Adjournment to ascertain whether the Minister intended to shaft Irish post offices and withdraw social services in rural and urban areas alike. Post offices in two parishes in my constituency, Edenmore and Donaghmede, also felt threatened by closure because of the Minister's incompetence. The Minister and the Attorney General must have been aware that the matter could have been dealt with under social and other services. Why then did the Minister proceed to send out those letters and threaten the social fabric of Irish post offices? The Minister's comments come very close to misleading the House.

The charge of deliberately misleading the Dáil should not be made in the House.

I withdraw the charge. The Minister must agree that an almighty cock-up was made on this issue in the past three or four months and that the 1.3 million people who depend on his Department have had a bad experience.

Thank you for intervening in that way. The Deputy should be very careful in making statements like this in the House and then withdrawing them seconds later. It is irresponsible of him. He does not understand what this issue is about or else he is trying to—

I understand it very well. I have read the directive. The Minister and the Attorney General do not understand it.

The Deputy should allow the Minister to reply.

—mix up two distinct issues. On the question of the letter, a letter was sent from the Longford office to 11,000 long-term disability benefit recipients about an administrative change being made by the Longford office to facilitate extra capacity in Longford and allow for more staff to make the necessary arrangements to comply with the many improvements in the carer's allowance made in the budget—

There was not a reference to a post office in that.

The Deputy should not interrupt me. I did not interrupt him.

The Minister is in possession.

All the people on long-term disability benefit paid by cheque seven years ago, had been moved out to Longford and were then in receipt of payments in the normal way. The Department proposed to revert to the cheque payment system as before. When I became aware of the letter that went out from the Department, I immediately changed it—

The Minister did not. It took him three weeks.

—and it is changed as of the next day when it issues. The fact is that a further option was given to those people. The Deputy should check his facts.

I know my facts.

As the time for these two questions has concluded, we must now proceed to Question No. 5.

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