Jack Wall
Question:8 Mr. Wall asked the Minister for Public Enterprise the plans, if any, she has to sanction a fare increase in Dublin Bus and DART services; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [16475/99]
Other Questions. - CIE Fares Increase.
I will shortly complete my consideration of applications from the three CIE operating subsidiaries which have made submissions for fares increases. I met the CIE unions some time ago to discuss a number of issues. During that meeting the unions urged me to approve an increase in CIE fares. I also recently met the CIE chairman who strongly argued the case for an early increase in fares.
Does the Minister agree that the reason the unions and the CIE chairman are arguing for fares increases is that the subvention being given to Dublin Bus and CIE generally is inadequate to meet the required services? Is the Minister simply flying another kite here? She gave the exact same reply in a statement on 8 December 1998 to the effect that she would announce a positive response in the near future. At that time, the Minister was threatening a 16 per cent increase in fares. Has she had an opportunity to re-examine this matter and consider the possibility of encouraging people onto trains and buses by reducing fares rather than increasing them through the provision of the necessary subventions to CIE? It is vital that we get people out of cars.
It is important that we encourage people to use public transport. I would be surprised by any utility which would not increase its fares for eight years. Except for some increases over which CIE has control, it is eight years since CIE or its subsidiaries increased fares. Taxpayers' money will, for the most part, pay for the 150 buses although there will be some input from European funds. Is it not desirable to invest taxpayers' money in the public transport system? Does the Deputy feel it is proper for a public utility not to increase its fares for eight years? During that time workers have received wage increases on a yearly basis, as is only proper.
The Minister seems to be suggesting that it is proper that people who use public transport services should pay for them. Does she agree that the less well off in society comprise the bulk of Dublin Bus users in particular? The same applies to Bus Éireann. Low paid civil servants from the Minister's Department and other Departments use the service extensively at weekends. Does the Minister agree that if people are to be encouraged to remain in a public transport mode, it is unacceptable to increase fares? Will the Minister decide whether she will provide a subvention to public transport in Ireland, either run by CIE or others? Will public transport be paid for by means of subvention or fares? Public transport subventions in Ireland are the lowest in Europe. In some cases, we receive five times less per passenger.
I am reliably informed that that was the case until this year, but I am awaiting exact information on that. In some European countries operating companies supply their own buses, as did Bus Átha Cliath until 1999. The national subvention towards the cost of buses increased greatly last year.
A huge fuss was made when the ESB was not granted the third round of three rates of price increases. I did not grant the third round because the company was making profits in the region of £200 million per year. There has not been any public transport fare increases since 1991.
The Minister was absolutely right not to grant the increases to the ESB. There was no fuss about that in this House.
There was plenty outside it.
The Minister stated in a previous reply that new buses could be regarded as a subvention to Dublin Bus.
A subsidy.
I take issue with that. Does the Minister believe that the provision of new buses necessitates increased subsidies to Dublin Bus? The case has always been made by the company that one of the reasons it did not provide additional buses related to the losses such buses would incur. Additional buses have not been provided as a result of the Government requirement that the company must break even. A genuine examination of whether extra buses would incur losses is required. Public service contracts should be made available in order that we would be aware of what companies make losses and the extent of the subsidy required for the provision of public transport.
The Deputy is correct in regard to the public service contracts as we would be better aware of what services are required. Dublin Bus bought its own buses until the recent provision of 150 buses.
The time for this question has expired. We must proceed to the next question.
I indicated that I wanted to ask a question. May I ask a brief question now?
The Ceann Comhairle is ruling me out of order every time I stand up today.
The Deputy is out of order. The Chair is complying with the rules of the House, which the Deputy is usurping. I ask him to resume his seat.