Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Oct 1999

Vol. 509 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 8 – Motion re: Fourth Protocol to the Treaty of Amsterdam (A Proposal for a Council Regulation (EC) regarding the establishment of "Eurodac"); No. 27 – the Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Bill, 1999, Order for Report and Report and Final Stages; No. 9 – Motion re: Partnership for Peace and the Euro-Atlantic Partnership Council.

It is also proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that (1) the proceedings on No. 8, if not previously concluded, shall be brought to a conclusion after two hours and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and (2) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 9; (i) the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party shall not exceed 30 minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; (iii) Members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed 15 minutes.

Private Members' Business shall be No. 73 – Motion re: Nurses (resumed – to conclude at 8.30 p.m. tonight).

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 agreed?

Mr. Quinn

Before we agree to that, is the Taoiseach in a position to indicate whether it is the intention of the Minister for Health and Children to give the House some details tomorrow on the emergency arrangements?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on No. 8.

Mr. Quinn

It does. I just want to know, before we agree to this—

An Ceann Comhairle

I will allow the Deputy to ask a brief question.

Mr. Quinn

I just want to know whether the Taoiseach has considered this request and whether he will make a statement on the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have allowed the Deputy to ask a brief question. Can we deal with No. 8?

Mr. Quinn

A Cheann Comhairle, I am trying to be helpful. We are ordering the business of the House and I want to know in that context, of which this is just one part to which we have to give our explicit agreement, will the Minister for Health and Children at some stage between today and tomorrow afternoon indicate to the public, through this House, what standby arrangements there are to provide—

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Deputy is aware there is a Private Members' motion scheduled for tonight.

Mr. Quinn

He does not have the information yet because the health service employees and unions—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order at this stage. I have to put the proposal. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 8 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9 agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

I understand Deputy Noonan has already proposed, on behalf of Fine Gael, and I suggest here, that the Standing Orders be amended to allow people to speak for up to 40 minutes on this subject. This is an issue upon which a referendum was promised to the people. We believe that since the Government is denying such a referendum, which it is legally entitled to do, the least it should do is allow a more full debate in the House than would occur on another issue. For that reason, I suggest the current time limit of 15 minutes per speaker should be amended to allow people to speak for up to 40 minutes on this subject.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The key point here is the amount of time that is provided for the overall debate so that there is adequate time for Members to contribute on this crucial subject. Will the Government say it is not intended to put a guillotine on the debate tomorrow evening and that it will continue next week and for as long as is necessary?

The Taoiseach

I do not accept Deputy Bruton's motion, but I will reply to Deputy Higgins. There will be no guillotine. The debate will continue next week if there are sufficient speakers.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Taoiseach saying he will not accept my proposal?

The Taoiseach

That is what I am saying.

Mr. J. Bruton

I have to oppose this then because, if the Government promised a referendum, it is unreasonable, that it should force the debate through here without adequate time being allowed to individual speakers.

The Taoiseach

Let me correct Deputy Bruton. The Government did not promise a referendum.

Mr. J. Bruton

Fianna Fáil promised a referendum.

Mr. Shatter

Fianna Fáil promised a referendum and deliberately misled the people.

Mr. Quinn

In relation to the proposals—

Mr. Finucane

Is the Taoiseach suffering from amnesia again?

Mr. Quinn

—for No. 9, I understand the time allocation arrangements are the standard and the norm. However, everybody in the House would agree this is not a normal debate, bearing in mind the promise of a referendum and the U-turn that has taken place. In those circumstances, the suggestion by the leader of Fine Gael to reverse the normal time allocations in this debate without reference to any future debate, should be followed. I can understand why the Government Whip's office has tabled these time constraints. I am asking, in the light of the controversy surrounding the handling of this entire issue, that these normal time constraints should not prevail and that the Whips be asked to construct an alternative form based on the Fine Gael Party's suggestion or any other suggestion that might be made by the Taoiseach's Department and the Chief Whip.

Mr. Gormley

The parties that are most opposed to PfP will have 15 minutes under these Standing Orders. That is not adequate. That is why I support Deputy Bruton. We need at least 40 minutes to explore the issues involved. It is an extremely important issue. The Taoiseach has, unfortunately, done a U-turn on this issue. I ask him, on that account, to make provision for us to have a real debate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

A Cheann Comhairle, I share the views of Deputy Gormley that the core argument here is to ensure that those who genuinely wish to present the alternative to the proposal to join PfP are afforded that chance here in this Chamber. I do not know the real agenda behind the proposition for giving speakers 40 minutes across the board in an open-ended debate. Certainly I would not be interested in participating in a filibuster. It is very important Members in the House recognise that there is a fundamental flaw in determining time on such debates. It is either—

An Ceann Comhairle

A question to the Taoiseach.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I seek clarification and an assurance from the Taoiseach that Members who have a contribution to make will be afforded adequate time.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is engaged in repetition. He has put his question and I ask the Taoiseach to respond.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I ask the Taoiseach to answer that question.

The Taoiseach

I was asked yesterday not to impose a guillotine or a fixed time to complete this debate and I accepted that. I was also asked that there be no time limit on the vote and I accepted that. Deputy John Bruton then asked that as many Members as possible be allowed to speak and I have accepted that. It is now being asked that Members should have a longer time to speak. I do not see the necessity for that. Every Member can speak on the debate. If some of the smaller parties are concerned because they have fewer members they can put their case to the Whips and perhaps arrangements could be agreed tonight. I see the sense in that, but I am not prepared to make other changes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9 agreed to?

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 9 be agreed to."

Tá

Ahern, Bertie.Ahern, Dermot.Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, David.

Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Blaney, Harry.Brady, Johnny. Brady, Martin.

Tá–continued

Brennan, Matt.Brennan, Séamus.Briscoe, Ben.Browne, John (Wexford).Byrne, Hugh.Callely, Ivor.Carey, Pat.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cowen, Brian.Cullen, Martin.Daly, Brendan.Davern, Noel.de Valera, Síle.Dempsey, Noel.Doherty, Seán.Ellis, John.Fahey, Frank.Fleming, Seán.Flood, Chris.Foley, Denis.Fox, Mildred.Gildea, Thomas.Hanafin, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Healy-Rae, Jackie.Jacob, Joe.Keaveney, Cecilia.Kelleher, Billy.Kenneally, Brendan.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Séamus.

Kitt, Michael.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.Lenihan, Conor.McCreevy, Charlie.McDaid, James.McGennis, Marian.McGuinness, John.Martin, Micheál.Moffatt, Thomas.Molloy, Robert.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Ó Cuív, Éamon.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donoghue, John.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Hanlon, Rory.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Desmond.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Smith, Brendan.Wade, Eddie.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Walsh, Joe.Woods, Michael.Wright, G. V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Barnes, Monica.Boylan, Andrew.Bradford, Paul.Bruton, John.Bruton, Richard.Burke, Ulick.Carey, Donal.Clune, Deirdre.Connaughton, Paul.Cosgrave, Michael.Coveney, Simon.Crawford, Seymour.Creed, Michael.Currie, Austin.D'Arcy, Michael.Deasy, Austin.Deenihan, Jimmy.Dukes, Alan.Durkan, Bernard.Enright, Thomas.Farrelly, John.Finucane, Michael.Fitzgerald, Frances.Flanagan, Charles.Gormley, John.Hayes, Brian.Higgins, Jim.Higgins, Joe.

Higgins, Michael.Howlin, Brendan.Kenny, Enda.McCormack, Pádraic.McDowell, Derek.McGahon, Brendan.McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Mitchell, Olivia.Moynihan-Cronin, Breeda.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Shea, Brian.Perry, John.Quinn, Ruairí.Rabbitte, Pat.Reynolds, Gerard.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Shatter, Alan.Sheehan, Patrick.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Timmins, Billy.Yates, Ivan.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies S. Brennan and Power; Níl, Deputies Sheehan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the Order of Business, Deputy John Bruton.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is the Taoiseach aware that the disaster of the nurses' strike has already happened in that chemotherapy is being cancelled for cancer patients, that brain tumour operations are also being cancelled in Beaumont Hospital and that this disaster is already present this week.

An Ceann Comhairle

As this is a Private Members' motion, we cannot have an extended discussion. The Deputy must ask a brief question.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister to talk to the nursing unions to see if a solution can be found this week?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Quinn, a very brief question on the same matter.

Mr. Quinn

I have been trying to get a response from the Taoiseach in respect of this matter; it is ancillary to the dispute. I think the public at large is entitled—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have statements, just questions.

Mr. Quinn

I am trying to ask the Taoiseach a question. Will he make time available to enable the Minister for Health and Children to come to this House some time between now and tomorrow afternoon to inform the public what contingency arrangements have been put in place in the hospital services following the negotiations that are ongoing today between the relevant parties in the interests of some sense of understanding of what is going to happen? I suggest there is a precedent for this and I ask the Taoiseach if he is in a position to inform the House that such time will be availed of between now and the end of business tomorrow to enable the Minister for Health and Children to make that announcement? That is not related to the Private Members' motion.

The Taoiseach

Discussions are taking place today. When the outcome of these discussions are known, procedures of the House will allow Members to raise the matter tomorrow. We will then see what the position is.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must move on.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I remind the House that this is the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

I wish to clarify this point.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must be brief.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Quinn

Obviously the discussions must continue but will the Taoiseach give an indication in principle that if the Minister for Health and Children is in a position tomorrow afternoon to make a statement that such an opportunity will be availed of, that a statement will be issued and that we will not have to ask the same question on the Order of Business tomorrow?

Mr. J. Bruton

I support what Deputy Quinn has said about getting clear agreement on the emergency situation. However, even if this is obtained, chemotherapy treatments and brain tumour operations will still be cancelled and this will result in deaths. It is important that the Government and nursing unions, who have joint and shared responsibility in this area, should get together not just on the emergency plan, but to ensure an agreement is reached which will avoid this strike taking place.

Dr. McDaid

What is the basis for that?

The Taoiseach

Discussions are going ahead today. Hopefully the emergency proposals which the Minister and his representatives in the Health Service Employers Agency have requested will be agreed. There are provisions under Standing Orders if people wish to raise the matter tomorrow and we will see what happens then. We know the proposals and what the Minister is seeking and we will know today whether they are agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not allowing any further questions. I have allowed the leaders to ask questions and I am not expanding on that. We are on the Order of Business, not Question Time.

Mr. Shatter

Briefly, on a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

No, the Deputy has had his opportunity and it will be open to him to speak again on the Private Notice Question on the motion tonight.

Mr. Shatter

On a very brief matter—

An Ceann Comhairle

No, will the Deputy resume his seat? Will the Deputy resume his seat?

Ms McManus

On a point of information—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is on its feet trying to deal with this matter, so there cannot be a point of order until order is restored.

Mr. J. Bruton

a Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is still on its feet. Will Deputies resume their seats.

Mr. J. Bruton

Deputy Shatter is trying to raise a point of order.

An Ceann Comhairle

There can be no point of order when the Chair is on its feet.

Mr. J. Bruton

How can you rule when you have not even heard the Deputy's point of order?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is still on its feet.

Mr. J. Bruton

Deputy Shatter is entitled to speak, as is any of the other 165 Members.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business. The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. J. Bruton

He should not be silenced.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business and he cannot speak when he is out of order.

Mr. J. Bruton

He was ruled out of order before you heard him, Sir, and that is not acceptable.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, because he wanted to continue a discussion that has been ruled out of order. The Chair allowed the leaders a brief question and answer session. Deputy Shatter had his opportunity last night and will have an opportunity tonight.

Mr. J. Bruton

Deputy Shatter is entitled to be heard and I ask the Taoiseach to endorse me on that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Leader of the Opposition should resume his seat. Deputy Bruton is now out of order.

Mr. J. Bruton

I know that.

Ms McManus

A Cheann Comhairle, on a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

Right, what is the Deputy's point of order?

Ms McManus

The Taoiseach has said that there is provision available to us to raise this matter tomorrow to ensure this vital information is transmitted to the public. What provision is there, Sir, because I am not aware that a provision is available to us to ensure that emergency cover—

Mr. J. Bruton

On a point of order, how are you allowing this one and not—

Ms McManus

—and information, that family doctors—

Mr. J. Bruton

This is not funny.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a point of order. The Deputy should resume her seat.

Mr. J. Bruton

It is discrimination and it is not acceptable.

Ms McManus

A Cheann Comhairle—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume her seat.

Ms McManus

This is an absolutely vital matter. Family doctors must receive the information they need.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume her seat. That concludes the Order of Business.

Mr. Howlin

We have other matters which we wish to raise.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Order of Business has concluded.