Ruairí Quinn
Question:1 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if the Government intends to bring forward any proposals for amendments to the Constitution during the forthcoming Dáil session; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17751/99]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Proposed Legislation.
John Bruton
Question:2 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the plans, if any, the Government has to bring forward proposals to amend the Constitution during the current session; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18775/99]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
As I mentioned in reply to a similar question on 12 May I asked Government Departments to report to me on proposals for constitutional amendments in relation to their functional areas of responsibility arising from the recommendations of the All-Party Committee on the Constitution and the programme for Government. My Department is examining the responses received from other Departments and considering how proposals for constitutional amendments arising from these deliberations might best be brought forward in a structured and consolidated way.
Do I take it from that reply the Government, as such, has no specific proposals for constitutional reform and that no formal proposals for amending the Constitution have been originated by the Cabinet and are currently before the all-party committee?
There are no particular proposals from the Government before the all-party committee. The all-party committee has made three reports which contain many issues that are very important to the Government, including proposals on the presidency. A report on the Judiciary is due shortly. The Government is committed to many of these. There is one proposal in the foreign affairs area with which we will have to deal next year and the Minister for Foreign Affairs will bring it forward in due course. There are a number of reports and Departments have been responding to me since early summer. Many of the proposals for constitutional amendments are complex. We have to work out a way to deal with them. There are non-contentious, contentious and technical proposals and we must find a format in which to deal with them.
I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. May I restate the question in a slightly different way? Am I correct in thinking that, notwithstanding the reports in the newspapers, the Cabinet has no proposals to change the Constitution or the structure of the Houses of the Oireachtas?
There is no proposal before the Government yet but, as the Deputy knows, work is being done on electoral reform, which is also before the all-party committee. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government has stated his views and there is an active debate on that issue which, in due course, I am sure will formalise itself into proposals.
Is there any truth in suggestions which have appeared in the newspaper that the Government wishes to get rid of the current proportional representation system where the electorate decides the order in which TDs are elected and substitute it with a system whereby, in effect, the party headquarters would decide the order in which TDs would be elected?
There is no such proposal yet but, as Deputy Bruton knows, people here have spoken about the list system. That is a regular system across continental Europe. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government proposed that we should have a system similar to that used in presidential elections and by-elections, and that proposal should be considered, but there is a long way to go to activate this debate.
Does the Taoiseach agree that the experience we had when Mr. Haughey was leader of Fianna Fáil is one that goes against giving the leader or head office of any party the right to select the order in which particular Deputies would have the chance to be elected?
All proposals for electoral reform will have to be examined. It is good to have a debate on the issue, as we have stuck with this system for a long time. Perhaps after the debate we will end up with the same system. Electoral reform is something we should not be afraid to discuss.
Regarding the list system in particular, does the Taoiseach agree that the country's experience of the way in which one person, in control of one party, was able to pollute the entire political system is one which would argue against giving a party's leadership the power, through a list system, of deciding who should and who should not be elected, given that this gentleman wanted to intimidate people when voting in parliamentary party meetings? Do we want to add to that the power of selecting who would and who would not be elected in a particular constituency?
I know Deputy Bruton wants a debate on another issue.
I do not. It is a good illustration.
If it is a good illustration, Deputy Bruton should put his views forward in the debate, as he is fully entitled to do. All we are saying, as we have done for the past few years, is that it is a good idea to debate electoral reform and we should see what changes we can make in the system.
That is not reform. It is taking away from the people.
Perhaps we will see what system would be best into the next millennium.
Does the Taoiseach agree that the debate on electoral reform has largely been dominated by the larger parties, which are concerned with inter-candidacy rivalry, as, allegedly, it is claimed that elected members of those parties cannot do their work properly? Does he agree that if we are to focus on reform we should look at the marvellous example the all-party sub-committee of the Committee of Public Accounts has given in the way it has carried out its work? The issue of reform is not how one gets into this House but what one does when one gets here and the resources one has to enable one to work. The example set to the nation on TG4 is the way to go, rather than for Fianna Fáil to try, for the third time, to abolish proportional representation.
I am very much in favour of the committee system. I have praised the work of the Committee of Public Accounts in the House and elsewhere. I prepared much of the work on the compellability legislation in my time as Minister for Finance. I am glad to see it work and hope it continues to work. However, I am not sure why people are edgy about a debate on electoral reform. Our system may be the best in the world. Maybe there are not enough of us or maybe there are too many of us. Maybe we do not have enough resources, maybe we have too much, but I do not see what is wrong with debating these issues. People should not come to the conclusion that Fianna Fáil has a machiavellian plot to change this. We are a little short of numbers to do that.
That is why the Taoiseach wants change.
We are not stopping anyone from growing.
It was the same in 1959 and in 1968.
Order, please, allow the Taoiseach to conclude.
I do not see that. In the argument about multi-seat constituencies, if I were Deputy Quinn I would be looking at the constituencies where my party does not have a seat. Maybe reform will give his party more seats.
We are. We will have one on Wednesday week.
We have had two major debates here on Dáil reform in the past five years. I would have thought the list system had considerable appeal for certain party leaders, but maybe not. In replying to the original supplementary from Deputy Quinn, the Taoiseach spoke about an ongoing debate. Is that within the Cabinet or within his party, or is he referring to a forthcoming debate in the House?
On electoral reform?
Yes.
The All-Party Committee on the Constitution has already discussed the issue. The Minister for the Environment and Local Government, on behalf of the Government, proposed in the programme for Government that we should actively look at this—
Is that a Government proposal on behalf of the Government?
Yes. We have referred the electoral reform issues to the All-Party Committee on the Constitution.
We have also done our utmost to promote this debate within the Government parties and I hope it has been debated within other parties. There are a range of issues to examine and it is good that people set out their positions. Some people do not like the list system, or do not want party headquarters to have too much control. Others want smaller constituencies with fewer numbers. Some people point out that the US Senate has 100 members but we have 166 Members. It is good that a range of points of view have been put forward and I do not see why any of us should be afraid of that. The Government will come to a conclusion on the outcome of that process. I hope that will be in the lifetime of this Government but, if not, it will be in the lifetime of the next Government. That is all we are seeking to do.
Is the Taoiseach aware that a member of his own party, Deputy Roche, proposed an amendment to enshrine neutrality in the Constitution? Will this become a reality or was the Deputy simply flying a kite? Does the Taoiseach believe that electoral reform would be premature without real reform of local government? Does he believe that we first need a division between national and local government?
Deputy Roche has a well researched and structured argument which he put forward at our party meeting last week and which will be further examined. Whether it is possible, or whether it is the right course to take is a matter for the future. In Government and in Opposition, the Minister for the Environment and Local Government, Deputy Dempsey, argued Deputy Gormley's case that local government is equally important. Deputy Dempsey has brought forward a wide range of legislation and proposals to improve the structure of local government in line with electoral reform.
The Taoiseach stated that electoral reform is being actively considered by the all-party committee. The committee recently carried out a survey of Members of the Oireachtas. Is the Taoiseach aware that the response to the survey from members of his party did not indicate any great enthusiasm for changing the present structure? Will he confirm that the Government will not make a commitment to change or make any decision until the all-party committee has finalised its report on this issue which will not take much longer?
We will wait until the all-party committee has completed its useful work on all of these issues. I will not answer the Deputy's other question as the questionnaire was confidential.