John Bruton
Question:8 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, Dr. Paisley; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18138/99]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Ministerial Appointments.
Ruairí Quinn
Question:9 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the matters discussed at his meeting on 30 September 1999 with Dr. Ian Paisley; the action, if any, he plans to take as a result of the issues raised; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [18942/99]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 9 together.
I met Dr. Ian Paisley, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party, in his capacity as Moderator of the Free Presbyterian Church, in Government Buildings on Thursday, 30 September 1999. We discussed recent attacks on the Free Presbyterian Church property in Corragarry and Tullyvallen, County Monaghan. I condemned without reservation the violent attacks on the church property. I also stressed to Dr. Paisley that the local community representatives in the areas concerned are appalled at the recent attacks.
I have asked the gardaí to increase their vigilance in protecting church property in Monaghan and the Border area generally and to ensure special attention is paid to vulnerable places of worship.
Does the Taoiseach agree freedom of worship is one of the fundamentals of civilisation and that this House condemns, without the slightest reservation, the attacks on the Free Presbyterian Church in Monaghan, in this jurisdiction? When speaking to Dr. Paisley, did the Taoiseach avail of the opportunity to ask him to use his influence to ensure sectarian attacks on Catholics, particularly in the vicinity of Portadown, cease? Does the Taoiseach agree he and Dr. Paisley share a common concern to ensure sectarianism does not take the violent forms it has unfortunately taken in recent times to the detriment of both communities on this island?
I agree with the first part of Deputy Bruton's statement. We all condemn attacks on any place of worship and some of the recent attacks were quite serious and caused considerable damage to small communities which are not in a position to withstand them financially. These attacks also create insurance and other dif ficulties. Attacks on church property or any religious property are wrong and cannot be accepted. I hope the Garda follows up on the matters efficiently, as I am sure it will.
I raised the attacks on Catholics in Carrickfergus and Portadown and the sectarian incidents this year as a result of which many Catholics were burned out of their homes or had to leave them. Catholics are intimidated most Saturdays of the year when they go to worship at Harryville church. I asked the good doctor to use his influence to make sure that those incidents stop as well.
What did he say?
What was Dr. Paisley's response to the point raised by Deputy Currie, particularly in regard to Harryville and places in his own constituency?
Particularly in circumstances where leading members of his own party and church – for example, the former rugby international – were clearly involved in incidents at Harryville. What did Reverend Paisley say? I suppose he condemned the use of violence generally. Did he comment on his failure to condemn, when challenged, attacks on members of the Ulster Unionist Party in Fivemiletown, for which members of his party were convicted, including an attack on Ken Maginnis, MP?
He stated that he is also opposed to any attacks on people attending churches, North or South.
Did the Taoiseach smell his breath?
Will the Taoiseach give an update on the incident at Coragarry church in Castleblayney that was reported in The Irish Times on Saturday, 2 October, as a result of which two people were charged? Did he indicate to Dr. Paisley that this was as much a matter of local vandalism as one of sectarianism or do the reports which the Taoiseach now has indicate that, notwithstanding an element of wanton vandalism, there is an undercurrent of sectarianism in this State, as was manifested against the Free Presbyterian churches?
If the Deputy does not mind, I would rather not comment on which it was, at this stage because a person is due to appear in court. I expressed my view at the time but I am advised it would not be helpful for me to express it at this stage because of the case.
Does the Taoiseach agree that all sectarian attacks, but especially those perpetrated against places of worship, are to be condemned without reservation? On behalf of those I represent, I condemn such attacks here again. Does he further agree that they are anath ema to everything for which Irish republicanism stands? Regarding some of the incidents raised by Dr. Paisley on his visit, does the Taoiseach acknowledge the Garda statement yesterday that they were, indeed, incidents of pure vandalism? I welcome his confirmation that he raised incidents of a sectarian nature, including those at Harryville, with Dr. Paisley during his visit.
I acknowledge the Deputy's comments and know that he has made such comments strongly previously. I am also aware that he and his elected colleagues in the constituency have been strong on these issues on the ground. I emphasised to Dr. Paisley that Members of this House representing that constituency totally abhorred these acts. Again, because of the court case, I do not want to comment on the Garda report. It is a matter for the courts.
With regard to sectarian attacks on both Catholics and Protestants, why has there apparently been an increase in such attacks in recent times? Is there any possibility that people are using the absence of violence as an opportunity to give vent to their feelings of hatred in other ways? Does the Taoiseach feel that there is anything more we can do to influence public opinion, through education, to reduce the grave incidences of sectarianism which are experienced by whoever happens to be the minority in a particular area? In places such as Antrim and Portadown the Catholic population is in the minority and in other parts of Ireland the Protestant population is in the minority.
Even though it was a relatively quiet summer, the Deputy is correct when he says there was an enormous number of sectarian attacks. Most of these attacks take the form of people being forced from their houses. I have heard many reports about how this is done and, like Deputy Bruton, I do not want to say which side does what. We talk nowadays about areas being cleansed. There are clearly people on either side who believe that if a housing estate is predominantly made up of one side, the object of the exercise is to ensure there is no one of the other religion in it. That is senseless. There is one estate which Deputy Currie knows well that has changed totally in 20 years. It was built for Catholics but in this case they have almost all been forced out. There are other examples of similar cases along the peace line. We must continue to encourage people to recognise that sectarian attacks are against their own and their families' interests.
I am always heartened by the co-operation that exists among those groups which take part in North-South affairs, whether in training, education or holidays, and whether the people involved are young or old. That is an enormous help in this situation. I recently met a group of which no one was under 40 – probably not many were under 50 – and not one of that group had ever been south of the Border. If we can do more in that area, it will change the ferocious prejudices which still remain.
Does the Taoiseach accept that his description of this phenomenon as "ferocious prejudices" could be better put? Does he agree that one way to deal with this would be for political leaders to address their own constituents with the same tolerant face they use when addressing the rest of the world? Frequently there is a difference between the reasonable face political leaders present to the television cameras and the way in which they speak to their own constituents. People need to speak with equal firmness and tolerance to those in their own community as they do to the world outside.
This is a good day for the House to refer to these matters. Yesterday the Employment Equality Acts and orders were signed into law in this State. Two weeks ago the same happened in Northern Ireland. Yesterday at the launch there were groups from the North beside our own people and now these matters are covered by law. I hope the legislation is effective in its operation and that people will work against such matters because they have blighted the past and could blight the future. Political leaders, North and South, should take every opportunity when talking about human rights to be mindful that such rights are for everyone.
At the Taoiseach's meeting with Dr. Paisley, were matters of general security discussed, other than the attacks on Dr. Paisley's churches? There have been reports that the Real IRA and those believed to be responsible for the Omagh atrocity are currently reorganising with a view to posing a further threat. Is the Taoiseach in a position to confirm that his briefings indicate that this is the case? What steps, if any, is it proposed to take to deal with this matter?
On more general Northern Ireland questions, I kept those two issues separate.
This relates to the visit of Dr. Paisley.
I think I am right in saying that this was the first time Dr. Paisley crossed the portals of Government Buildings? Was it a shocking experience for him, was he diminished by it or in any way transformed, or did the earth tremble? Was there a seismic shift or was it business as normal?
Did the Taoiseach serve orange juice?
I suppose I should say I was meeting him as moderator of his church, so we did not get into general political issues.
In concluding our comments on these questions I invite the Taoiseach to join with me and, I am sure, other Members in welcoming the first steps taken by Dr. Paisley in coming here to meet the Taoiseach. We should not endeavour at any time to trivialise it. It is a very important event. In line with the earlier questions on constitutional change, I hope the Oireachtas All-Party Committee on the Constitution will come back with a recommendation supported by all parties that will facilitate the good Dr. Paisley to have a seat.
The Deputy is making a statement.
It is a core explanation.
My final comment relates to Deputy Bruton's remarks. It is imperative that we confront sectarianism not only on a public level but also in dealing with our constituency and base support. I would like the House, particularly Deputy Bruton, to note that that is something I have done throughout my political life.