Vol. 513 No. 6
8 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the progress made to date in implementing the recommendations of the Nally group on the public prosecution system; the additional staff, if any, which have been provided to the Chief State Solicitor's office in view of the findings of the DPP in the Nora Wall case; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1345/00]
9 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the steps, if any, being taken to deal with the problems which have led to staff taking industrial action in the Chief State Solicitor's office; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1454/00]
10 Mr. J. Bruton asked the Taoiseach the effects of the dispute in the Chief State Solicitor's office; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [1697/00]
I propose to answer Questions Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, together.
A working group on the implementation of the recommendations of the Nally group report commenced work in November 1999. The group comprises representatives from the Office of the DPP, the Department of Finance, the Office of the Attorney General and the Chief State Solicitor's office. It is considering the staffing levels and structures necessary in an enhanced prosecution service. Considerable progress has been made but I am not yet in a position to set out any new arrangements. The staffing and grading issues in the Chief State Solicitor's office are being considered in parallel with proposals for the staffing and grading of the new office of solicitor to the Director of Public Prosecutions.
Regular discussions with staff side representatives have taken place and are continuing both in relation to internal CSSO matters and on the implications of the Nally group recommendations. I understand steps have been taken by the CSSO to address the workload problems in some sections. The numbers at recruitment level in professional and technical grades have been increased by five over the past six months. Furthermore, additional promotional posts have been created to provide a more attractive career structure for new staff. Counsel are being engaged on some larger cases to prepare books of evidence.
The industrial action is creating general inconvenience and is slowing down the preparation of cases for court. Negotiations between the law offices, the Department of Finance and IMPACT are taking place in order to achieve a settlement of the dispute.
I wish to draw the Taoiseach's attention to a report which was carried in the newspapers on 4 February, subsequent to my tabling this question and the preparation of the official reply. Bearing in mind the announcement today in the new social partnership programme, is it not necessary to benchmark certain types of Civil Service activities?
There is, as Deputy Rabbitte suggested at the Committee of Public Accounts, a need to take the CSSO out of the mainstream Civil Service and to establish it with greater autonomy, analogous to that of the National Treasury Management Agency. Mr. Michael Buckley, the retiring Chief State Solicitor, has indicated that the office simply cannot get the staff it requires. Does the Taoiseach agree that failure to do so endangers the liberties of citizens, as in the case of Nora Wall, and makes the State liable to subsequent litigation for compensation, the costs of which are far in excess of anything related to the funding of the CSSO? Has consideration been given to the idea of giving a greater degree of operational autonomy to the CSSO analogous to that of the National Treasury Management Agency? If so, would the Taoiseach be disposed to such a course of action and when does he expect a response from the Departments of Finance and Justice, Equality and Law Reform and his Department which are the three Departments directly involved? There is a crisis and the Taoiseach is in a position to solve it. Does he agree he has the model which would enable him to solve it quickly?
There are a number of questions posed. The Nally committee was established to examine all aspects of how the legal arms of the State work. It built on the Deloitte & Touche report in 1997 commissioned during the term of the then Attorney General, Mr. Dermot Gleeson, which examined similar issues. A number of changes were made at the time, 29 additional staff were recruited and 14 additional senior posts were conceded across the professional and technical grades.
The Nally commission made recommendations similar to the Deputy's suggestion. One of its recommendations was that responsibility for the Chief State Solicitor should be transferred in its entirety from the Attorney General to the Director of Public Prosecutions with legislative provision to enable the DPP to delegate powers. The Government has accepted that recommendation.
By delegate, does the Taoiseach mean to contract out?
It also means that the office is responsible to the DPP and that he has legislative authority—
As he does with barristers?
—over the staff so that they are moving not just in an administrative sense but also with a legislative basis.
Does this mean the DPP will have legislative responsibility for the CSSO?
Yes. It is one of the recommendations of the Nally committee.
The industrial dispute is causing problems and the issue of staffing levels and the negotiations on staffing issues are to be dealt with simultaneously. I am familiar with the problem of recruiting staff because I examined the figures for this matter last week. At present, no assistant solicitor in a recruitment grade in the office has more than two and a half years' experience. Everyone in the office for two years is effectively promoted and the first promotional grade for young solicitors has a salary from £31,000 to almost £39,000, which we in the House would say is not too bad for such young people. That is not the whole picture. Having been in that position for two years, which means they would be less than five years in the service, they are headhunted.
Having been trained by us.
Yes, precisely, and it is happening to a greater degree. It is not a question of the rates of pay, something I thought might be the case. I thought they were too low at the introductory level, but that is not the case. In addition to what happened in 1997 and 1998, more promotional posts were created and there were more appointments to the technical grades but it has not resolved the position as there is still an outflow.
I understand that the work rate is very tough and that issues such as Army deafness claims have placed enormous strains and pressures on the office in recent years. That, on top of all the other work, creates pressure and the Attorney General, the Department of Finance and my officials are working on this with IMPACT in the context of the implementation of the Nally report. A great deal of work went into the review, it is believed to be the way forward and the Attorney General has been supportive of it, as was the previous Attorney General. More reform will be necessary, particularly in the criminal section of the office where there is quite a large staff. There are approximately 230 staff in the CSSO and the majority of these are in the criminal section. That will also have to change.
Given that the same newspaper, The Irish Times, of 4 February, carries the story that due to a lack of co-ordination the taxpayer has had to pay £500,000 – £800,000 more than was anticipated – will the Taoiseach consider using the NTMA model for the CSSO? This might provide flexibility in hiring staff with the requisite experience and skill while the effect of tricking about with grades and so on will filter into the rest of the Civil Service system. Just as we had a problem at the end of the last decade with the management of the national debt we now have a serious problem with the management of the State's legal obligations. Conventional Civil Service structures and staffing norms will not suffice.
In a period of little more than two years there have been two major studies of this problem, neither of which made that recommendation. The studies made a series of recommendations which need to be implemented. I do not wish to go off on another tangent. We should implement the recommendations of the eminent people who have studied the problem. The outgoing Chief State Solicitor, the Director of Public Prosecutions, and the previous Director of Public Prosecutions and Attorney General all believe these recommendations would make a substantial difference although they may not solve the staffing problems. The salaries staff can command in the private sector after a relatively short time working in a busy State office are quite high. They would not consider them high for the work they are doing and that is what is under negotiation. All the recommendations of the Deloitte & Touche report have been implemented. We must now implement the recommendations of the Nally report which have been accepted and see where we go from there.
Why did the Government accept the subordination of the Chief State Solicitor's office to the DPP's office, given that the Chief State Solicitor is a servant of the State while the DPP holds an office independent of the State?
The belief was that this was a far better way of co-ordinating the caseload. The lack of co-ordination referred to by Deputy Quinn was being created by the Director of Public Prosecutions not having total control over the staff. At a previous Question Time we discussed the proposal that the CSSO should form a unit of the office of the DPP and be headed by a solicitor who would be answerable to the DPP. That case was put forward in the report and it was the unanimous finding of the committee. Because the criminal section of the CSSO works, by and large, for the DPP it was felt that it would be more effective if it were answerable to the DPP through a solicitor. That is why we accepted that recommendation.
Are the rest of the CSSO's functions – the civil functions – to be the responsibility of the DPP?
No, not all the sections.
Does the Taoiseach agree that a real problem is created by secretarial staff leaving the CSSO because they are being offered salaries higher that those being paid to solicitors within the CSSO?
I do not know that. I can tell the Deputy the salary of a law clerk, which is a recruitment grade. Is the Deputy referring to law clerks or to clerical grades?
That would be a legal executive.
The salaries for clerical grades go from £17,700 to £22,000. The salaries for solicitors go from just under £31,000 to £38,500. The problem seems to be on the solicitor grade side rather than on the side of the clerical or technical grades, even though there has been a high turnover of staff.
Does the Taoiseach agree there is a problem in retaining quality staff in the public sector, not just in individual offices such as this where one could adopt the NTMA approach but in all Departments when they see the salaries that can be made outside, and that there is a need for a systemic rather than an ad hoc solution to deal with borrowing or legal services? A person appointed Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach, for example, might be able, if he or she is worth his or her salt, to command twice that salary working outside. It is also extremely difficult to get people to go into politics in view of the comparison – to give a concrete example – between what a solicitor and the Minister for Foreign Affairs can make. Talent can be applied in different ways. This is a real problem in the public service generally.
He is a solicitor with two years experience.
The person I have in mind has more than two years experience and he does not need me to represent him.
There is no one left in the recruitment grades after two years; they are all in the higher grades. The Deputy is correct. Through some magnificent ways people on the outside know who the good ones are in the important clerical grades and they are increasingly being head-hunted and offered much higher salaries. It has become common practice for them to be offered between £5,000 and £10,000 more than can be offered under existing structures. The same applies to those who operate the technology. Deputy Bruton cited one example in the higher grades, but there are many others. This presents a difficulty. Staff are also being head-hunted at an enormous rate in the private sector. Some of the deals done in the financial sector in the past year or so have been highlighted in the media and the figures involved are mind-boggling. Individuals can command such salaries in a good marketplace.
Does the Taoiseach agree that one of the reasons there are problems with the probity of public administration in many eastern European countries is that the civil servants who make important decisions are paid half nothing while there are large amounts of money to be made outside with the result that there is either rapid turnover or corruption? We need to be very careful to ensure salaries are adequate for the responsibilities undertaken, otherwise there will be problems given that original sin has not been abolished.
As the Deputy is aware, that issue will be looked at under the programme which was agreed yesterday and which will be presented to the members of all the organisations represented by the four pillars. The State cannot afford enormous all-round increases, but the issue will clearly have to be looked at in the case of certain positions.
(Mayo): What is the point in commissioning reports and studies if the recommendations contained therein are going to be ignored while the State prosecution system grinds to a halt? Does the Taoiseach agree that the chaos in the Office of the Chief State Solicitor is best exemplified by the Nora Wall case where junior counsel forgot to tell senior counsel, where the solicitor in court was not the solicitor who prepared the book of evidence, where the principal officer was on holidays and the Garda Síochána forgot to tic-tac with the Director of Public Prosecutions? Is it not well exemplified also by the Sheedy case where no one from the Office of the Chief State Solicitor was present? Three weeks ago a legal clerk obtained—
People should not be mentioned.
(Mayo):—High Court permission to go to the Labour Court because an issue pertaining to her maternity leave was a factor in her promotion.
Particular cases should not be mentioned in the House.
(Mayo): A decision to appoint 95 additional solicitors and to adjust salaries to a commensurate level of work in terms of the competence and scale of demands is required in the next two or three weeks to avoid further miscarriages of justice.
Department of Finance officials and IMPACT representatives have agreed a negotiating process to achieve a solution which, I am advised, will involve intensive and detailed negotiations over a period of weeks although I do not know the exact number of weeks involved. Both sides are due to meet in the near future and have already tabled draft agendas. Hopefully, the issues to which the Deputy referred will be addressed.
