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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 30 Mar 2000

Vol. 517 No. 2

Ceisteanna – Questions. Priority Questions. - Tribunals of Inquiry.

Derek McDowell

Question:

2 Mr. McDowell asked the Minister for Finance if he has asked the board of the Central Bank for an explanation of the content of the letter, read into the record of the House by him on 19 November 1997, in which it suggested that it had no knowledge of the operation of Ansbacher accounts prior to the publication of the report of the McCracken tribunal in view of recent uncontested evidence given at the Moriarty tribunal regarding inspections carried out by the bank in 1976 and 1978; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9343/00]

In response to questions in the House on 15 February and 23 February 2000, I indicated that it would not be appropriate for me to make any statement on matters which are currently the subject of examination by the Moriarty tribunal. I further indicated that I had been informed by the Central Bank that it expected to be giving evidence to the tribunal shortly.

The Deputy will be aware that the Moriarty tribunal commenced the taking of evidence in public sittings from Central Bank witnesses on 7 March 2000 in relation to, inter alia, the operation of the Ansbacher accounts. I am not in a position to say whether the taking of evidence from Central Bank witnesses has concluded. However, I have been informed by the Central Bank that additional information has been sought by the tribunal and, therefore, the taking of further evidence cannot be excluded.

I cannot make any comment on matters which are under examination by the tribunal, which was established by resolution of the Oireachtas to inquire into and report to the Clerk of the Dáil on certain matters. However, now that the Cen tral Bank has given evidence to the tribunal as to its state of knowledge of the system of numbered offshore deposit accounts, known as the Ansbacher deposits, I am in a position to inform the Deputy that the Governor wrote to me, at his own initiative, on 9 February 2000 on this issue. This was prompted by an editorial which appeared in The Irish Times on 7 February 2000. I understand that a copy of this letter was provided to the Moriarty tribunal by the Central Bank. The letter states:

9 February 2000

Mr Charlie McCreevy TD

Minister for Finance

Government Buildings

Upper Merrion Street

Dublin 2

Dear Minister

I refer to Monday's editorial in the Irish Times which contains a number of seriously inaccurate and misconceived statements relating to the Central Bank, including a reference to an apparent failure of the Bank to "inform the Minister . . . and through him the Dáil that it had knowledge of [certain] banking practices . . .". In order to avoid any further misconception about the disclosure of information, I would like to set the record straight.

You wrote to me in October 1997 in relation to the findings of the McCracken Tribunal requesting an examination of the McCracken Report and a comment on the Board's view of the adequacy of the supervisory and regulatory statutes and procedures and their implementation. This Report covered the period January 1986 to December 1996.

As your letter asked that we specifically examine references to supervision in the McCracken Report, we felt it would be helpful to reply at length on the supervisory issues which were referred to in the Report and we did so under a waiver from Guinness & Mahon of the normal confidentiality requirements. This allowed us to discuss fully the issues which arose in the McCracken Report, namely breaches by G&M of our Licensing and Supervision Requirements and Standards relating to large liabilities to interbank depositors and to matters relating to the control and management of G&M.

In the reply I indicated that the system for operating the Ansbacher accounts referred to in the McCracken Report was not known to the Central Bank. These accounts were not part of the G&M accounting system and could not, therefore, be detected by the supervisory process. The Bank learnt of the existence of these accounts for the first time through the McCracken Report.

The Moriarty Tribunal was established in September 1997. The Central Bank has had fre quent contacts with the Tribunal in relation to both exchange control and supervisory matters. In consideration of the Terms of Reference, the Bank made a submission to the Tribunal in December 1997. This covered the period of the McCracken Report. In addition, it included a separate section on some issues arising prior to that period which were considered by the Bank to be relevant to the work of the Tribunal. The material in this section related to matters which arose during the course of on-site inspections of G&M carried out by the Bank in the 1970s.

The fact remains that the Central Bank had no knowledge of the system of numbered offshore deposit accounts known as the "Ansbacher deposits". These appear to have been deliberately concealed and were maintained outside the normal books and records of G&M.

The Central Bank's anxiety at all times throughout the various investigations of these matters has been to assist the relevant bodies established by the Oireachtas, in every possible way. To this end, evidence has been provided continuously, and up to the present moment, to the Moriarty Tribunal and the Bank expects to give further detailed evidence to the Tribunal shortly. As you are aware, Section 16 of the Central Bank Act, 1989, imposes strict requirements of secrecy in relation to supervisory matters. Within this constraint, we have ensured that all relevant information has been brought forward.

Please contact me if you require any further information.

Yours sincerely,

Maurice O'Connell.

In the light of this letter, the question of asking the board of the Central Bank for an explanation of the content of the letter dated 11 November 1997 from the Governor, which I read into the record of the House on 19 November 1997, did not arise.

I have to confess I am completely bewildered by the response and particularly by the contents of the letter from the Governor. It does not seem to address the information that has since come to light at the tribunal. I appreciate what you are going to say, a Cheann Comhairle, in ruling me out of order, and perhaps this is something we need to pursue further elsewhere. Is the Minister satisfied, given the letter he has just read into the record of the House, that that sits comfortably with the information he has previously been given by the Governor in relation to the bank's stated knowledge about the Ansbacher accounts or what we now know to be the Ansbacher accounts? Is the Minister satisfied that he has not inadvertently misled the House?

I have not misled the House because I read into the record what was sent to me. The Deputy and other Deputies tabled parliamentary questions previously on this matter and I took advice from the Attorney General's office as to what would be appropriate. The advice from the Attorney General's office is that it would be inappropriate for the Minster to seek to clarify or explain the Central Bank's position or to appear to be taking sides. He should be careful not to intrude on the tribunal's terms of reference, although there was other advice as well. The Central Bank has been at the tribunal since the last parliamentary question and it may be there again, so we should wait to hear the final deliberations of the tribunal.

I accept what the Minister says about the tribunal, and obviously we must not trespass upon that, but I am seeking to establish whether the Minister, in reading into the record the Governor's response in November 1997, gave what is now in effect inaccurate information or whether he is satisfied that the information he transmitted, albeit by way of reading out a letter, was accurate at the time.

My legal advice is that it would not be appropriate to enter into discussion on the distinction. The nub of the issue is as follows: the Central Bank distinguishes between, on the one hand, the system of numbered offshore accounts, known as the Ansbacher deposits; the Central Bank has stated that these accounts appear to have been deliberately concealed and were not part of the G&M accounting system; and the Central Bank has reiterated that it learned of the existence of these accounts for the first time through the McCracken report. On the other hand, in respect of the issues which arose in the course of on-site inspections by the Central Bank in 1976 and 1978 concerning back to back loans secured by offshore deposits, it would seem that these activities formed part of the G&M accounting system and from the Governor's letter of 9 February 2000 it would appear that the term "Ansbacher accounts" or "Ansbacher deposits", as used in the Governor's letter dated 11 November 1997, was not intended to cover these accounts. My advice is that it would not be appropriate to enter into discussion on this distinction as this is a matter for the tribunal.

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