Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Apr 2000

Vol. 518 No. 5

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 15, motion re Freedom of Information Act, 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) No. 2 Regulations 2000 – (returned from committee); No. 10, Estimates for Public Services, 2000 [votes 3, 5, 13, 14 and 15] – (returned from committee); No. 16a, motion re Establishment of Joint Committee on the Constitution; No. 38, Wildlife (Amendment) Bill, 1999 – Second Stage (resumed); No. 39, Sex Offenders Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (Resumed); No. 17, motion re Report of the Joint Committee on European Affairs on Economic and Monetary Union – to be taken not later than 1.30 p.m. and the order shall resume thereafter.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) Nos. 15, 16 and 16a, shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 16, Votes 3, 5, 13, 14 and 18 shall be moved together and shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and any division demanded thereon, shall be taken forthwith; (2) the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. 17: (i) the opening speech of the chairperson of the Joint Committee on European Affairs, of the main spokespersons for the Government and the Labour Party, who shall be called upon in that order, and of each other Member called upon, shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; (ii) Members may share time; and (iii) the chairperson of the Joint Committee on European Affairs shall be called upon to make a speech in reply, which shall not exceed ten minutes; and (3) matters on the Adjournment under Standing Order 21 shall not be taken today and business shall be interrupted not later than 3.50 p.m. whereupon the Dáil shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, 10 May 2000.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 15, 16 and 16a agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 17 agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil today agreed?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): On the adjournment of the Dáil—

An Ceann Comhairle

On the proposal for the adjournment of the Dáil I will take a quick question.

Mr. Sargent

It is not agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not agreed.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Let me just say—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make a statement on it, he can ask a question on that proposal.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Given that we now know the people of Dublin have had the planning of their city disgracefully-—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make a statement.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with the adjournment of the Dáil today be agreed to" put and declared carried.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Tánaiste refer to the legislation promised by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to amend our corruption laws, the most recent of which was enacted in 1916, to shift the onus of proof in the case of anyone receiving money in a public capacity who makes a decision that could be of benefit to the donor to require them to prove their was not a corrupt motive and in light of recent revelations will she agree to take the Fine Gael Bill in Government time? In regard to what has happened overnight will she accept that Fine Gael would support the taking of the Labour Party Bill, the Registration of Lobbyists Bill in Government time? These two measures taken together would represent a comprehensive package. Obviously the Government can, on Committee Stage, amend any of these measures if it considers it necessary. The House should be seen to act today on these two issues.

Mr. Quinn

I wonder whether the Government has had time to reflect overnight on the stated opposition yesterday by the Taoiseach. I respectfully suggest he was misinformed in not having fully read the Labour Party Bill which provides for definitions in relation to lobbyists. In light of the widespread concern which affects everybody in the House, I ask that Second Stage of the Labour Party Bill be taken in Government time and amended accordingly at the earliest possible opportunity and also that the issues referred to by Deputy Bruton regarding the updating of our corruption legislation be addressed. This is not a reflection on the Government per se, it is quite manifest from the schedule of legislation from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that the burden of legislative drafting in that Department is enormous. The capacity of other parties to draft legislation can be utilised on Second Stage. I urge the Leader of the Progressive Democrats and the Tánaiste, whose party, I understand, is in favour of the lobby register, as are some of the Fianna Fáil backbenchers, to reconsider the misled and ill-informed position adopted by the Taoiseach yesterday and to accept our Bill on Second Stage in Government time and to proceed to amend it accordingly?

Mr. Sargent

I urge the Tánaiste to give priority to the Registration of Lobbyists Bill and also to the standards in public office Bill. The latter is promised, but not yet. I ask that the Planning Act, 1963, be looked at so that badly made and corruptly made rezoning decisions can be reversed where possible.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot proceed with statements of that nature.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the Government entertain a motion to rename Conway's public house “The Brown Paper Bag”?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have given the floor to the Deputy in order to ask a specific question on proposed legislation.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): On proposed legislation, it is now clear that the people of Dublin—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not asking a question on proposed legislation. The Deputy will resume his seat unless he has a question on proposed legislation. I have given the floor to the Deputy to ask a question but he is not doing so.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): You are not allowing me to ask the question, Sir. In view of the fact that the people of Dublin and especially of Clondalkin have had the planning of their area deeply subverted by corruption—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat. He cannot, in an overt manner, interfere with the proceedings of a tribunal. The Deputy is being totally disorderly. If the Deputy does not have a question he must resume his seat. He cannot proceed in this manner.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Will the Tánaiste make time available for an emergency discussion on the disastrous consequences of corruption?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a question on legislation. The Deputy will resume his seat. I call the next question on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

You have forgotten, Sir, that a question has been asked of the Tánaiste.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call the Tánaiste to reply.

The Tánaiste

The Government and I share the concern that has been expressed at the recent revelations at the Flood tribunal. This House established the tribunal and has always supported it. A couple of weeks ago speakers on all sides of the House were very critical of those who sought to criticise the tribunal. I wonder if they would say today that the tribunal is a waste of time and money.

Mr. Quinn

Including the Taxing Master—

The Tánaiste

Exactly, including the Taxing Master.

Mr. Quinn

—who has not apologised for his remarks.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not having a discussion on the Flood tribunal. We are dealing with proposed legislation. The Tánaiste should confine herself to answering questions on proposed legislation.

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will publish the fraud offences legislation in the middle of May.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is not what I am talking about. I asked about corruption legislation.

The Tánaiste

The prevention of corruption legislation will be discussed at the end of May.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the legislation be ready? We need legislation which shifts the onus of proof onto a recipient of money who takes a decision in a public capacity which benefits the donor. Such people should be required to prove there was no corruption. Fine Gael has already drafted a simple piece of legislation to do this and the Government has had it since last March. This legislation is being tabled again this morning. Will the Tánaiste agree to take the two Bills – the Labour Party Bill on the registration of lobbyists which most of the House will support, and the Fine Gael Bill, which I have no doubt the Fianna Fáil Party will also support in its thrust if not in every aspect of its detail?

The Tánaiste

The prevention of corruption legislation was published in January and will be discussed in May.

Mr. J. Bruton

That legislation is to ratify an EU convention. It is a different thing entirely.

The Tánaiste

That is correct. The legislation which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform intends to publish is the fraud offences legislation. That will be published in the middle of May. While legislation is necessary to ensure that we have effective laws, it would be wrong to assume that the lack of legislation caused what has happened. Legislation will not make dishonest people honest. We should be clear about that.

Mr. J. Bruton

On the contrary. If the burden of proof is shifted—

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have a discussion on this matter. We must have questions and answers on proposed legislation.

The Tánaiste

In relation to Deputy Quinn's suggestion regarding lobbyists, the Taoiseach said yesterday that the matter should go to a committee of the House. The Labour Party Bill will be before that committee and it is intended that the Government will also put proposals to the committee which I hope will meet very soon after Easter. It may well be that the Labour Party Bill will be amended by the committee or that a different Bill will emerge.

Mr. J. Bruton

Will the Tánaiste agree to give Government time to consider the Fine Gael Bill on corruption which updates the 1889 and 1916 Acts concerning corrupt payments? This has nothing to do with fraud. It deals with corruption which is a different thing. The Bill is concerned with the corruption of the exercise of a public office. That is what was at stake in the tribunal yesterday. The Fine Gael Bill proposes to change the onus of proof to require a donor to prove that there was no corrupting motive in the receipt of a donation or payment. Will the Tánaiste agree to deal with this Bill in Government time? This Bill is separate from and complementary to the Labour Party Bill. The matter is not dealt with in the Labour Party Bill. This is not a criticism of the Labour Party Bill which deals with a different issue.

Mr. Quinn

In the light of what we have heard in the past 24 hours, I cannot understand why Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats cannot accept on Second Stage, a Bill which is already in printed form. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has a workload which will prevent the Department preparing a Bill. It is already incapable of meeting its own self-imposed timetable. What will be said to the public who will listen to Fianna Fáil backbenchers saying they are awaiting a document in the future when a document has already been tabled? A precedent was established by the previous Government, and has been followed by the present Government, of accepting Opposition legislation. Deputy O'Sullivan's legislation on equality issues has been accepted, for example.

The Tánaiste may not be able to say so now because the Taoiseach is not here but the Taoiseach was clearly misinformed yesterday. He had not read the Bill. I do not expect that he would have done so. However, he has now read it and I have spoken to him about it. There is ample precedent for the Fianna Fáil and Progressive Democrat Parties, members of which are in favour of a register of lobbyists, accepting the Labour Party Bill. This will not solve all the problems but it will prevent new ones from occurring.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have prolonged statements from the Deputy.

Mr. Quinn

As Mr. Justice Flood did with Mr. Dunlop, I urge the Government to reflect, to accept this Bill on Second Stage and then amend it in the appropriate select committee. The alternative path proposed by the Government will mean that it will be September before legislative proposals emerge.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is making a rather prolonged statement. I call on the Tánaiste to make a final comment in response.

The Tánaiste

I am not about to engage in a technical debate with Deputy Quinn as to whether the Bill is his or someone else's. We need legislation.

Mr. Quinn

Once the Bill is on the floor of the House it is the House's legislation.

The Tánaiste

The House will not meet again until 10 May.

Mr. Sargent

That is a disgrace.

The Tánaiste

Perhaps in the meantime a select committee can meet to discuss the Labour Party Bill and proposals to amend it from Fine Gael or the Government. There will be Government proposals.

Mr. Stagg

Why does the Government not do the normal thing? The Tánaiste is kicking to touch.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gay Mitchell on the next item.

Mr. Gormley

Are we avoiding the issue?

Mr. G. Mitchell

In relation to Vote 3: Department of the Taoiseach (Revised Estimate) on today's Order Paper, I am concerned about the situation in Zimbabwe. There may be Irish passport holders who are at risk there. Will the Tánaiste arrange for the Minister for Foreign Affairs to look into this matter and communicate with the Opposition on the steps the Government proposes to take? The situation is very serious and could become even more serious for Irish citizens.

The Tánaiste

I will arrange for the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs to brief the Opposition on that matter.

Mr. Rabbitte

Does the Tánaiste consider that the time has come to bring in legislation to ban corporate donations?

Mr. Gormley

On the same matter—

An Ceann Comhairle

Unless the Deputy is asking about promised legislation his question is not in order. I call Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Gormley

Why are the Progressive Democrats objecting to this?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley will resume his seat. I call Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Gormley

Why will the Tánaiste not answer the question?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Noonan

Is the Tánaiste about to answer the question?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair will decide. The Chair has called Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Stagg

A Deputy has asked a question about promised legislation and the Tánaiste wishes to answer it. I respectfully suggest that she be allowed to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair decides the order of speakers. I call Deputy Noonan. If the Deputy repeats his question I will consider it. I have called Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Stagg

A question has been asked by Deputy Rabbitte. In accordance with Standing Orders Deputies are entitled to ask questions on promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have no control over whether the Tánaiste answers. I call Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Stagg

The Tánaiste was on her feet to answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

We must have order in the House.

Mr. Stagg

We can have no order if you do not abide by Standing Orders which allow Members to ask questions about promised legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Noonan.

Mr. Stagg

A question has been asked by Deputy Rabbitte. The Tánaiste wants to answer but you will not allow her to do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is now being disorderly and should resume his seat.

Mr. Stagg

We should have order.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Noonan. I will revert to the Deputies.

Ms Shortall

You should let the Tánaiste answer.

Mr. Rabbitte

I put a very simple, straightforward question to the Tánaiste—

An Ceann Comhairle

Does it relate to promised legislation?

Mr. Rabbitte

Yes, Sir. With respect, you should permit her to answer.

The Tánaiste

It would be wrong of anyone in this House to believe that the lack of legislation will provide a fig leaf for those involved in bribery and corruption.

Mr. Gormley

Rubbish.

The Tánaiste

That is a fact.

Ms Shortall

Make them pay the price.

The Tánaiste

It was not the failure to introduce legislation which caused what happened. Is the Deputy suggesting that the lack of legislation—

Mr. Gormley

Put them behind bars where they belong.

The Tánaiste

Legislation will not make dishonest people honest.

Mr. Gormley

Put them behind bars.

Mr. T. Kitt

Let the Tánaiste answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has legislation been promised?

The Tánaiste

I agree with the Deputy, it is important that every politician is not smeared with the same brush.

Mr. Gormley

That is what is happening.

The Tánaiste

We want to ensure we do not contribute to that.

Mr. Gormley

Ban corporate donations.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

(Interruptions).

Mr. Gormley

Who said, "Shut up." You should be ashamed of yourself and your party.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Tánaiste

We may well have to give consideration to Deputy Rabbitte's suggestion. We should do so on an all-party basis.

Ms Shortall

When?

The Tánaiste

Soon. In government the Deputy's party introduced the current legislation.

Ms Shortall

The Tánaiste has had enough time to consider the matter. There have been enough scandals.

Mr. Quinn

Three years.

Mr. Noonan

On a different subject, as the Minister responsible for the competitiveness of industry does the Tánaiste have any views on the current frighteningly high levels of inflation? Does she intend to make a statement in the House in her capacity as Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment—

An Ceann Comhairle

The matter was raised yesterday on the Order of Business.

Mr. Noonan

Yes, but the Tánaiste has a direct responsibility. She is the Minister for rising prices.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will allow her to make a brief comment.

The Tánaiste

Obviously everybody would be concerned about rising levels of inflation, most of which, as the Deputy is aware, is attributable to imports, the low value of the currency and the increase in the excise duty on cigarettes and oil prices.

Mr. Quinn

What about left wing pinkos?

The Tánaiste

The average rate of inflation over the period of the partnership deal will be about 2.5%.

Mr. McDowell

It is 18 months since the Government announced its intention to establish a single regulatory authority for financial services and almost a year since the method of doing so was recommended by the Tánaiste's erstwhile colleague, the Attorney General. Has the Tánaiste reached agreement with her colleague, the Minister for Finance, on how this can best be done? When does she expect to bring legislation to the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The "how" part of the question is not in order but the "when" part is.

The Tánaiste

No, we have not reached agreement.

Mr. Quinn

Why not? Paralysis?

Mr. McDowell

This is an extremely important matter and a very important industry. It is now 18 months since the Government announced its decision.

Mr. Quinn

It is unacceptable.

Mr. Higgins

(Mayo): In view of last week's “Prime Time” programme on the appallingly subhuman conditions in which hundreds of young couples, many with young children, have to live in Dublin's flatland and in view of the fact that the ground rent Bill has been deemed to be unconstitutional – I do not believe it is as it is based on a garbled judgment in Blake v. The Attorney General – when will a formula be found that is constitutional which will bring to an end once and for all the gross exploitation of young people and achieve a balance between the property rights of landlords on the one hand and the rights of tenants on the other? When will we see moves to redress what is an appalling situation?

The Tánaiste

As the Deputy is aware the Government established a commission to look at the question of private rented property. It is due to report by June this year.

Mr. Finucane

The Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources will shortly make 49 appointments to seven regional fisheries board. In accordance with the spirit of the Fisheries (Amendment) Bill, will the Tánaiste ensure suitable individuals are appointed on the basis of their ability rather than political affiliation?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

Some hope.

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

A standards in public office Bill has been promised. Is it proposed to amend the Planning Act, 1963, to allow bad rezoning decisions to be overturned in respect of partially developed land? Decisions relating to undeveloped land may be overturned. Some of the land affected by the corruption about which we are hearing is partially developed.

The Tánaiste

We will have the ethics in public office Bill in June. On the Planning Act, there is a planning Bill before the House. I will have to take advice on whether it is possible to do what the Deputy suggests. I do not know if we could by an Act of the Oireachtas undo the rezoning decisons of local authorities.

Mr. Quinn

We can.

Mrs. Owen

In the budget the Minister for Finance announced a changed regime in the Department of Education and Science for school secretaries and caretakers. Is the Tánaiste aware that school secretaries and caretakers are being let go—

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter is not in order.

Mrs. Owen

It relates to a ruling by the Tánaiste to reduce the numbers on CE schemes. Schools do not know what is happening. They have had to let people go.

An Ceann Comhairle

That question is not in order on the Order of Business.

Mrs. Owen

The Department of Education and Science has not implemented its side of the scheme.

Mr. Quinn

I hesitate to disagree with you, Sir, but the social economic employment proposals will require some form of legislation—

An Ceann Comhairle

That was not the question. The Deputy should not tell the Chair its business.

Mr. Quinn

I want to ask a separate question; I just wanted to assist you, Sir. No. 28 on the list of proposed legislation is the National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Bill the purpose of which is to establish a claims agency and which was on the desk of the Minister for Finance in draft form three years ago when he took office. Have the heads of the Bill been cleared by the Cabinet and, if so, when will it be published?

The Tánaiste

The heads have been cleared and the Bill will be published next month.

Ms Fitzgerald

When will the report on the medical trials on and vaccinations of children in care—

An Ceann Comhairle

Reports are not a matter for the Order of Business.

Ms Fitzgerald

Let me finish, a Cheann Comhairle. When will that report be available? Will it be available before Christmas? Will legislation be introduced to establish a post of ombudsman for children? What are the Government's plans in regard to that matter? The two are connected.

The Tánaiste

The report will be published within the next two or three weeks. The other day the Government approved the drafting of legislation to establish the post of ombudsman for children.

Mr. Rabbitte

At Question Time recently the Tánaiste promised that she would have her final proposals on the job initiative scheme by Easter. Does she think she will have to bring forward legislation to announce the revamping of the scheme? Is it ready as she announced?

The Tánaiste

I do not believe it will be necessary to introduce legislation. That matter will be dealt with at Question Time today.

Mr. J. Bruton

I will be writing to the Tánaiste asking for Government time for the anti-corrup tion Bill prepared by Fine Gael last year. While I appreciate that she was not in a position to give a definitive answer this morning, I hope she will be able to put herself in a position during the day to give a definitive answer.