Austin Deasy
Question:32 Mr. Deasy asked the Minister for Finance if he has made firm decisions regarding the decentralisation of Government offices to Waterford city, Dungarvan, Tramore and other towns in Waterford. [14253/00]
Other Questions. - Decentralisation Programme.
Dick Spring
Question:34 Mr. Spring asked the Minister for Finance the consultation process which has taken place between his Department and the relevant trade unions which are involved in his decentralisation plans; if he has taken on board the criticisms voiced by a person (details supplied) that that person had not been adequately consulted on plans to move a further 10,000 civil servants to the provinces; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14278/00]
Ulick Burke
Question:75 Mr. U. Burke asked the Minister for Finance the plans, if any, he has for the relocation of part of any Department or semi-State agency to Gort, County Galway, under the decentralisation programme; and if an existing building could be used in the event of such a move or if it will be necessary to build facilities on a greenfield site. [14312/00]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 32, 34 and 75 together.
I am currently engaged in a series of meetings with my ministerial colleagues with a view to bringing proposals on a new programme of decentralisation before the Government shortly. I intend that the Government will be in a position to take decisions on the new programme within the next number of months. Until such time as the Government has fully considered all of the issues relating to the new programme I am not in a position to comment on the likelihood of any particular centre featuring in the programme.
The issue of decentralisation has been raised by the Civil Service unions at the general council and my Department has consistently assured the unions that they will be consulted at the appropriate time. In the meantime I can confirm that I have no intention of departing from the long standing voluntary nature of decentralisation.
Does the Minister intend to issue guidelines on the decentralisation programme? Will decentralisation be based on geographical distribution or will a political decision be taken with regard to the towns that will benefit from it?
The towns and cities included in the current programme were selected by the Government having regard to the desire to promote regional development, economic growth and a more even spread of public service jobs throughout the country. I refer here to the current Administration and its predecessor. These criteria are as applicable today and they will be among those used to select the centres for the forthcoming programme. The Government is also conscious of the other issues which are likely to impact on the success of the programme. These could include proximity to third level institutions, convenient access to Dublin, the scale of the offices being decentralised, the availability of services, etc.
I am conscious of the need to use decentralisation as a vehicle to address job losses in particular areas of the country. Some of the criteria involved in choosing a location may be in conflict. For example, when the Government considers the centres in which decentralisation has already occurred it will have to decide, in the interests of a greater spread of services, whether these centres should be ruled out for further decentralisation or whether a synergy could be achieved with existing offices on an economy of scale by adding to existing facilities. Having heard all of the issues which must be considered, Deputies will appreciate how difficult it is for me to provide a simple list of criteria against which potential centres for decentralised offices can be measured.
Is the Minister aware of the recent comments made by Mr. Tom Allen of the PSEU at the union's annual conference in Tralee in which he stated that the union was becoming extremely annoyed and frustrated at being ignored? Will the Minister elaborate on the process of consultation in which is he engaged and to which he referred in his reply?
I am currently engaged in consultations with my ministerial colleagues. I do not expect sections of Departments or Ministers to issue notes stating that their Departments wish to be decentralised to a particular part of Ireland. I am currently engaged in a process of consultation on that issue. I intend to meet the Civil Service unions in this regard at the appropriate stage. I do not have any intention of excluding the unions from the process and the only reason they have not been consulted to date is that I have not been in a position to bring any proposals to them for discussion. Decentralisation will be carried out on a voluntary basis on the part of the civil and public servants involved, as has happened previously.
Experience has shown that civil servants are delighted to be transferred down the country and that they wonder why they ever spent time in Dublin. I was interested to note the Minister's comment that he wanted to spread public service jobs evenly throughout the country. Waterford has the highest unemployment rate in the country, particularly in the administrative field, according to figures published by the Central Statistics Office. I hope the Minister will take that into account when he considers the distribution of these decentralised jobs.
I accept Deputy Deasy's comments and will certainly take them into account. I stated in my supplementary reply that decentralisation is correctly viewed as a vehicle of job creation which will give areas a boost. I recognise that the unemployment rate is higher in Waterford than in other parts of the country and that will certainly be borne in mind.
Does the Minister agree that decentralisation does not necessarily mean sending something to the far end of the country and that some of the offices could be sited—
—just a few miles down the road.
I do not mean to be parochial but does the Minister agree that some of the offices could be decentralised to the periphery of Dublin or to the Minister's home county of Kildare? The Minister may have received a submission from County Wicklow to the effect that no State agency or Department has ever been located there.
To date, I have received representations from more than 90 cities, towns and villages which are interested in hosting decentralised Government offices. The Deputy is undoubtedly aware that west Wicklow and Kildare have always been regarded as a natural hinterland of Dublin and I would have to bear that in mind.
The current programme of decentralisation has been ongoing for some time and when it is completed – I hope by the end of next year – it is hoped that in the region of 14,000 civil servants will be located outside Dublin. It is my intention that the programme which is due to be announced will result in a further 10,000 public servants being located outside Dublin. There are approximately 32,000 civil and public servants in total, breaking down as 29,500 civil servants and 2,500 public servants. We hope the impending round of decentralisation will result in 24,000 civil and public servants being located outside Dublin.
In the light of increased technology, there is no need to have everyone centred in Dublin. People are conducting businesses all over the globe. Some major multinational firms are working on huge projects, such as building skyscrapers and bridges, by sending drawings etc. over the Internet. That is happening all over the world. It might have been necessary to have had everyone centred in Dublin 40 years ago but that is no longer the case. Deputy Deasy stated that those who have been decentralised wonder afterwards what all the fuss was about and why they did not move out of Dublin years earlier.
The Minister will be aware that a large number of civil servants has sought transfers out of Dublin. At one stage, some 200 or 300 people from County Clare were actively seeking transfers. People should be facilitated to work in their own areas. The Minister will be aware of the case which has been made for extreme areas in the west such as Kilrush and of the necessity to take some initiatives there. Decentralisation has had a major economic impact on Ennis and the surrounding area.
A later parliamentary question on transfers to County Louth and County Meath reveals that the number of people seeking transfers from two Departments is very high. That reply may provide Deputies with some idea of the numbers of people wishing to return to particular localities.
Deputy Daly has made the case for County Clare on many occasions and has pointed out the benefits of decentralisation to Ennis. Perhaps a proportionate benefit could be bestowed on the less populated parts of County Clare. I am sure that Deputy is not advocating that 2,000 civil servants should roll in to a particular part of west Clare.
There are many issues to be considered in regard to decentralisation such as the availability of housing, water and sewerage services etc. I usually find that when one makes a decision, these things follow. Entrepreneurs take the initiative to provide these services and thereby create economic activity in parts of the country which never previously experienced such activity. People have made the case for their own areas but some 99% of them will be disappointed and there will be hell to pay. There is a political downside to this issue.
Waterford got in first.
Will the Minister consider setting up the type of management boards which were set up under the operational programme for tourism in order that the decision could be made easier for him? The management board structure was very helpful. Will the Minister indicate when the first announcements will be made and whether they will be made before the election?
Which election?
Some people within the public service have suggested establishing a formal structure such as the management boards to which the Deputy referred. I am not inclined to set up such boards at this stage because if too many people become involved in this, nothing will happen. Deputies Deenihan, Deasy and Daly have had ministerial experience and they will be aware that one way of ensuring that a decision is not made is to farm an issue out. It is my intention that decisions will be made on this before the end of July.
Like other Members, I led a group from Newcastle West to meet officials from the Department of Finance and I thank the Minister for the courtesy extended to the group. I trust Newcastle West, the county capital, will be successful.
The decentralisation programme tends to focus solely on Dublin. However, it could be applied in other cities. In Limerick city, for example, there are 200 people in the Department of Agriculture, Food and Rural Development office but there is only one part-time person in the office in Newcastle West even though the town is at the centre of the agricultural hinterland. People who must travel to Limerick cannot get parking in the office car park and are often obliged to pay parking fines. Will the Minister consider decentralisation in that situation rather than focusing only on Dublin?
There might be merit in decentralisation from cities such as Limerick to towns such as Newcastle West. Staff might be able to buy a home for £10,000 less than in the city and their offices would be closer to the marketplace they should be servicing.
I am glad the Deputy raised this point. It was also raised in recent discussions in the Department and is now under consideration – not the situation in County Limerick but the general principle outlined by the Deputy. Decentralisation has resulted in a considerable number of offices being moved to a particular area and there could be further decentralisation from that area. A large number of people were decentralised to one part of the country over the past ten years and there might now be a need to move them further from that area, in line with what the Deputy proposes. The office in Limerick to which the Deputy referred was not under consideration but I support the general principle. One could call it sub-decentralisation.