Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Jun 2000

Vol. 522 No. 2

Ceisteanna – Questions. - Gender Equality in the Civil Service.

Ruairí Quinn

Question:

6 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach if, in regard to his recent address to the seminar on gender equality in the Civil Service, he will give the percentage of women in his Department in 1987 and 1997 at assistant principal level and principal officer level; the specific strategic objectives which have been set for his Department to increase the number of women working at higher levels; the goals set for his Department in this regard; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [17212/00]

The Taoiseach

My Department is committed to a policy of equal opportunities for all staff. I am fully in favour of reform in the area of gender equality and the development of a new equality policy to address the issue of participation of women in higher grades.

The percentage of women in my Department at assistant principal level and principal officer level for the years in question is as follows: in 1987, 20% of assistant principals and 11% of principal officers were women. In 1997, 33% of assistant principals and 43% of principal officers were women. This represents an increase over the decade of 13 and 32 percentage points, respectively. These figures compare favourably with those of other Departments where the average rate of female assistant principals in 1997 was 22.7% and the average rate of female principal officers was 14.8%. Our current figures for female assistant principals in 2000 has risen to 45% which well exceeds the numerical target set by the Government of one third of assistant principal posts to be filled by women over the next five years. This is not to say that my Department has become complacent and every effort will be made to achieve parity with male representatives in these grades.

My Department is in favour of a balanced representation of women in all grades and has a series of measures in place to encourage their career development and advancement. The IPA has been contracted to deliver a comprehensive career development training programme for all grades up to and including principal officer level this autumn which includes training in management and assertiveness skills. We have commenced our training programme for the implementation of the new performance management and development system in the Department which will address the career and development needs of every member of staff. The system is designed to clearly identify the role and range of competencies that each person requires to do his or her job.

We have introduced measures to facilitate staff who are trying to reconcile the demands of work and responsibilities of home and are fully committed to the operation of family friendly policies such as flexible working hours for staff up to and including higher executive officer level, parental leave and job sharing for all grades. Any staff seeking these options to date have been accommodated. Currently 12% of female assistant principals are availing of job sharing. Work sharing or term time is being piloted in certain Departments but not in the Department of the Taoiseach. If this option is introduced we will do our utmost to accommodate staff who wish to avail of it.

My Department has a policy of staff mobility in place. Staff are moved between divisions approximately every three years to broaden their experience which is essential for development and motivation. This ensures they have equal opportunities to work in a variety of challenging areas throughout their careers.

Female staff are actively encouraged to go forward for promotion and are provided with ongoing career development and support. While I am still disappointed with the level of participation of women in senior grades throughout the Civil Service, I am satisfied that my Department has attempted to address this issue with the various measures in place that I have mentioned. I look forward to the new equality policy that should be in place by the autumn. This policy is vital if we are to bring about the changes needed to achieve balanced female representation at all grades.

Mr. Quinn

I thank the Taoiseach for his comprehensive reply which complements his address to the seminar on gender equality in the Civil Service at the Institute of Public Administration on 13 June. Is the Taoiseach saying that, for as long as it remains in office, the Government is committed to redressing the imbalance outlined in the very poor figures referred to in his speech, and to which his reply in part refers where reference is made to the position in his Department? Who in the Government is to take responsibility for this? Is it a matter for the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform or the Department of Finance, which is effectively the personnel or HRM section of Departments, to implement the positive and progressive policies the Taoiseach has enunciated and which we support?

Is the Taoiseach prepared to recognise the constraints that are preventing many women from either returning to or staying in the workplace because of the non-family friendly working conditions which many experience? Does he recognise that the public service in general, and the Civil Service in particular, are well positioned to give a lead and are well resourced to absorb the undoubted cost that such a gender equality measure, and a working parent with young children, would require?

Who has responsibility for this measure? If it is the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform we can say goodbye to it. If the Department of Finance has responsibility, will it be prepared to change working conditions to make them more family friendly, especially for women? It is a sad fact of life that this should be the case but it is the reality.

The Taoiseach

In staffing and equality measures the Department of Finance has been promoting and co-ordinating the effort but, as I outlined in my reply, under the performance management and development system and the other personal development assertiveness policies, other Departments are organising their own programmes. Most Departments are using the IPA in that regard. The figures indicating that women hold 25% of assistant principal posts and 14.8% of principal officer posts refer to other Departments. They have improved in some areas, albeit not sufficiently.

I agree with the Deputy that family friendly policies are a way of assisting, especially women with families. Any schemes in this area are good, whether they relate to work sharing or term time. Departments take a favourable view on the piloting of these schemes and to encouraging people to use them in their career development. That is helping the numbers. This attitude to human resource management has helped improve the numbers and as long as it prevails they will continue to improve.

Even though the figures I have indicated are a huge improvement on the position in the 1980s or early 1990s, we must continue to work on the matter until we achieve parity. At the higher levels we must ensure that success is achieved. In my Department, most people at assistant principal level have been promoted up, so it is important to address the issue at the lower grades and through all Departments. It will mean that people will move on from assistant principal and principal officer grade to assistant secretary grade and, ultimately, I hope, to the position of secretary general. There are very few at that level, although there are a number at assistant secretary level.

It is important that there is a follow through and that the numbers do not decline again. The figures indicate that has happened a few times over the years. We have succeeded in achieving, if not gender balance, at least respectable figures. People are then promoted and the effort must be renewed at the lower ranks. The issue must be addressed at all grades. The figures are acceptable at EO level, but a concerted effort must be made at HEO, assistant principal and principal officer grades.

Training levels are important. I have attended a number of sessions in this area under the SMI process and staff have repeatedly indicated that the necessary experience, drive and help they require in training is lacking. They need assistance and professional help to help them in the assertiveness they require when attending interviews for posts in other Departments, which can be intimidating, or within their own Departments. Traditionally, that has not been available within the public service. I hope the IPA courses will help in that regard. My Department will assist in these between autumn and Christmas. We will continue to press ahead with these arrangements to see if they are of assistance.

Mr. Quinn

I thank the Taoiseach for his comprehensive supplementary reply. However, I refer to one figure he gave in the speech on 13 June. This covers a range of different Administrations and therefore I am not making a party political point. Between 1987 and 1997, there was only a 1% rise in the level of participation in the key managerial grade of assistant principle officer. Does the Taoiseach recognise that the public sector pay structure is constrained in terms of levels of remuneration which cannot be readily altered or changed without massive knock-on effects, but the working conditions within the public sector can be dramatically changed to make that kind of employment which would be paid less than market rates in many cases outside the public service which people are currently leaving to take up those jobs? The competitive advantage the public service has is the ability to make employment much more family friendly, particularly of women of a particular age. Can the Taoiseach outline, now that the Minister for Finance has come into the House and is beside him metaphorically at least, if not physically,—

Dr. Woods

Physically.

Mr. Quinn

Deputy Woods has always been in between. He is the long survivor of the long march and he will go all the way to North Korea if he gets his way, and when they finally open up North Korea to democracy he will be leading the file in the column there.

Dr. Woods

I am quite big in China.

Mr. Quinn

Absolutely. Over Howth hill into Pyongyang. The Taoiseach's speech was good and so was his reply, but has he spoken to the person responsible for implementing this policy, since he said that this has got nothing to do with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform but is a matter for the Department of Finance? We will not hold the current number of women in the public service, let alone increase participation rates, unless we change working conditions since we cannot change the salaries.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is going back over what I said. The 1% increase between 1987 and 1997 at the key level of assistant principle officer was deplorable and I made that point in my speech. What we have achieved in recent years has been quite dramatic, but it is still not near what we need to achieve.

There are two issues here. First, as I said, my Department is committed to providing on-going career development training for all staff. That is being promoted strongly by the management and organisation development section of the Department of Finance in all Departments. The Departments must take the lead in this. The Department of Finance is encouraging people to use the IPA to deliver a career development programme for all grades to the level of principle officer. That is of major assistance.

Nowadays one loses staff if one does not try to improve the circumstances. As always, there is no point in training them and bringing them to a certain level if we cannot hold on to them. The family friendly policies being operated, such as job-sharing, are working well in many Departments.

Mr. Quinn

Many people are being refused it. Is the Taoiseach aware of this?

The Taoiseach

In my Department nobody is,—

Mr. Quinn

Across the Service.

The Taoiseach

—but with work-sharing and term-time, which is not in operation in my Department but is being piloted and which I hope will prove to be successful, the whole effort is to try to get these policies working. Where there are work-sharing arrangements and job-sharing arrangements in a number of sections in my Department, it works well. I can understand people thinking it will not work, having somebody working in the morning and somebody else in the evening or working two days one week and three the next. They might believe that such a scheme is difficult to operate, but my experience is that it works extremely well and while I have not needed to encourage my colleagues, I have been encouraging people within Departments and stating that there is nothing wrong with this. People come in, they have a job to do, they go heavily at it and then they go. I do not see anything wrong with it.

I do not know a great deal about term-time, which is not operating in my Department but it is being piloted. I will certainly look at it.