Vol. 523 No. 5
80 Mr. J. O'Keeffe asked the Minister for Education and Science his views on whether school premises are an under-utilised resource during out of school hours; and if he will put a scheme in place which will include cost of insurance cover in order that the resources will be available generally for the community and, particularly, for child care provision purposes. [21234/00]
139 Mr. Crawford asked the Minister for Education and Science the current position regarding schools being available for child care at out of school hour times; if he will actively encourage such action; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21413/00]
149 Mr. Penrose asked the Minister for Education and Science his views on the recent circular which was sent to schools requesting information on spare accommodation which might be used for child care purposes; the number of schools which have replied negatively; the number which have replied positively; the plans he has in respect of those schools which have spare accommodation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21469/00].
I propose to take Questions Nos. 80, 139 and 149 together.
My Department, in support of the National Child Care Strategy being led by the Department of Justice Equality and Law Reform, is currently engaged in a survey of spare capacity in all primary and post primary schools. The closing date for survey returns was Friday, 6 October. To date 758 primary schools, that is, 24% and 324 post primary schools – 43% – have submitted returns. Some 100 have indicated that they have spare capacity and are willing to consider the use of these rooms for child care purposes while 46 have spare capacity, currently being used for other purposes, which may have potential use for child care purposes. Detailed follow up on each positive response will now be necessary to establish the precise position in individual cases.
As I stated in my letter to schools, I am anxious that spare accommodation would be used for child care purposes, where this is feasible and that any such accommodation would be made available to child care providers by the school authorities on a rental or leasing basis. The Department of Education and Science would be prepared to subsidise these arrangements through the provision of a financial contribution to schools towards additional heating, lighting and, as Deputy O'Keeffe mentioned, insurance costs. Consideration would also be given to providing capital grants for essential minor refurbishment works to make the premises suitable for child care purposes.
To ensure an integrated approach, details of the scheme to support schools in this way will be finalised in consultation with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. In addition to this scheme, £5 million was provided in the 1999 budget to provide grants to schools that set up and run after school child care services. My Department is currently finalising details of a scheme for this after school support service, in consultation with the Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, which has also been allocated £5 million to support community based groups to develop after school child care services in disadvantaged areas.
It is envisaged that my Department's scheme will be confined to schools in disadvantaged areas. My Department has also provided £2.3 million this year for child care to support access of participants to Youthreach, Traveller training centre programmes for early school leavers and the vocational training opportunities scheme for unemployed people. The funds are allocated to the vocational education committees for direct provision of crèches, purchase of places on existing commercial or community crèches and for the payment of childminders, subject to compliance with tax and registration requirements under the Child Care Acts.
What is the total number of schools providing facilities?
Of those who have submitted returns indicating they will co-operate, there were 758 primary schools and 324 post primary schools. Some 100 have indicated they have spare capacity and are willing to consider the use of rooms for child care and 46 have spare capacity which is being made available for other activities, but child care could be part of that.
Does the Minister accept there is a huge need among local communities in this area, especially with regard to the provision of child care facilities? Does he accept that what he is doing is only scratching the surface of the problem? There are approximately 4,000 schools in the country. It is a question of harnessing that resource to their need. The question of insurance cover is a major inhibiting factor in developing the use of that resource. Will the Minister confirm he has plans to remove that and, in effect, provide insurance cover so we can encourage a greater use of the resources?
Under our schemes, for example, the VTOS, 795 students have availed of either full-time or part-time child care, involving 999 children and arrangements have been made for insurance or whatever. These are the elements that would be covered under a special scheme. The Government announced in July that a further £40 million would be made available for child care purposes as part of the anti-inflationary package. I understand the Taoiseach will shortly make an announcement on that. The details of the package have been worked out.
Will the Minister ensure that overall cover is provided? That would allow much greater resources to become available.
We are already providing that with regard to the ones in which we are involved. My Department would be prepared to subsidise the arrangement through the provision of financial contributions to schools towards additional heating and lighting and insurance costs.
It should be covered in its entirety. If the Minister does that he will unleash a major untapped resource.
Cover needs to be provided entirely for these purposes. Problems arise when other purposes are introduced to schools. That is what we would be covering.
Does the Minister accept that we should talk about child care from a child centred perspective rather than as an anti-inflationary measure and that if there was a well thought out plan on providing proper child care services this confusion would not arise? Has he outlined to school principals how the Government intends to proceed in this regard? It has been brought to my attention that the circular generated a great deal of confusion because no clear undertaking was given with regard to subsidising the costs involved, nor did the circular outline the intended use.
Does the Minister agree that it would have made more sense to clarify the position for schools with regard to the provision of 200 additional teachers, who were supposed to have been appointed last month, before asking the schools if they had spare capacity? What happens to schools who give up their spare capacity for child care purposes and receive an extra teacher from the allocation that is now due? Will huge confusion arise from that and will it lead to extra schools being allocated but there will no longer be spare capacity in terms of classroom space? Does he accept that a better way to proceed and use the spare capacity in schools would be to establish proper pre-school services in areas of disadvantage?
I want to see pre-school services develop in areas of disadvantage.
What if no space is available?
I would be conscious of any developments in that regard. The State's requirements will have to be reviewed because if children with disability are to be included in the mainstream, rooms for one-to-one treatment or whatever will be required. Big change will be needed in this area.
There has been planning with the VTOS and any other schemes in which we have been involved, and they have been properly organised. The Deputy mentioned the circular to schools. It outlines the costs that will be covered, as I have indicated.
Who will supply the services?
The circular states that heating, lighting and insurance costs will be covered.
For the benefit of Deputy Shortall, the Minister and other Members, there is a one minute limit on the person asking the supplementary question and a one minute limit on the Minister replying. If the Minister is interrupted when he is replying, he will not have time to reply to the question.
Limits seem to affect the Government. Some members of it exceed the limits.
I congratulate the Minister on taking the initiative to carry out this survey and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on providing money for child care. Does the Minister agree that money is being spent on the double on facilities which are already available in the community, such as sporting facilities? Adult courses could be held in primary and secondary schools after hours. New and existing schools should have strong links with the community during their planning stage so these facilities are not duplicated. The Minister said some of the supports are only for disadvantaged areas. Are those areas covered by the early school leav ing initiative or are they specifically designated as disadvantaged?
It relates to the schools which have been designated as disadvantaged to date. I hope to have the information soon on which we can allocate the further posts. There has been a difficulty with the data and the information. What happened the last time was that schools which were disadvantaged did not come within that scheme. This one is based more on the children. We want to ensure the figures are right as far as possible. I hope to have the rural and city ones ready shortly and they will come within that same category. As Deputy Shortall said, we want to extend this in the future but we want to make a start now.
I appreciate the Minister can only take on one thing at a time. Does he agree it is a disgrace that hundreds of millions of pounds worth of facilities are lying idle at weekends and at night while sports and youth clubs are trying to raise funds to build halls and gyms for our young people? These facilities could be made available if funding was provided for caretakers. I ask the Minister to make these facilities available to the communities, as Deputy Keaveney said. The Minister should work on it and he should not limit his efforts.
We need local co-operation because management and control are local. I agree with the Deputy that we must free up a lot of space.
We are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds.
I have no doubt that schools will be a focal point for the community in the future.
How soon will that happen?
We want to ensure that happens as soon as possible. It relates to businesses, to the community and to other activities.
What about the young people who need these facilities?
It depends on local will and management. Insurance is one of the key issues, as Deputy Jim O'Keeffe said. We are prepared to deal with that for the type of activities mentioned.
Is the Minister in a position to make an announcement in the House that at the start of November ten areas will be selected where this scheme will be implemented and that it will be reviewed at Christmas? The Minister should set out the guidelines and call in the boards of management in the community.
What criteria are used to determine disadvantaged status? The Minister should abolish this and deal with the disadvantage which exists in every school. I do not like any school being branded as disadvantaged because it can have different consequences. If the Minister and the Department were operating properly, they would have a complete database of the extent and range of that disadvantage and they would then be able to deal with it. However, pupils and schools should not be walking around with the brand of disadvantage on their backs.
I agree with the Deputy. I am moving away from the concept of disadvantaged schools, which schools welcomed because they got extra resources and teachers. We are moving towards a child centred approach which relates to facilities and to the number of children with a disability or a disadvantage in the school. That is what the current study deals with. I expect to have that up and running within this Dáil session.
We all look forward to a time when schools are the focal point of the community and their facilities and accommodation are fully utilised seven days a week throughout the year. What discussions has the Minister had with the management bodies, school principals and the teacher unions about giving back the premises for community use and fulfilling the plans about which he is talking?
I have had a number of meetings on various topics and I have made it clear that this is the direction I want to see it going. However, there are many practical difficulties and issues to be overcome. I want children with disabilities mainstreamed within the system. This comes back to an earlier point about extra rooms and facilities for that purpose. I have made it clear to the people in the planning section of the Department that we must make provision for them in the future. As regards sports facilities, a number of schools are prepared to share their facilities, particularly the new facilities which have been built as a result of our economic growth.
I hope the Minister has got the message at this stage. There is an old saying that wilful waste makes woeful want. There is a great need and yet there is a great resource. Will the Minister take the message from the House that he should engage in a proactive policy to ensure that the 4,000 schools are used to best effect in meeting community needs and in contributing to the demand for child care facilities?
I take that as an endorsement of what we are discussing and as an all-party consensus. I will pursue it in any way I can.
The Minister should get on his bike and travel at the speed of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform.
