Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Oct 2000

Vol. 524 No. 6

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business shall be as follows: No. 22, motion re referral to joint committee of Abbeylara report; No. 23, motion re approval of terms of agreement establishing an Advisory Centre on World Trade Organisation Law; No. 7, Teaching Council Bill, 2000 – Second Stage (resumed); No. 9, Youth Work Bill, 2000 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 41, Aviation Regulation Bill, 2000 [Seanad] – Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders relative to public or private business, that Nos. 22 and 23 shall be decided without debate; and in relation to the Trinity College, Dublin (Charters and Letters Patent Amendment) Bill, 1997, that (a) Report Stage be taken tomorrow at the conclusion of statements on the ASEM lll Summit in Seoul and (b) Fifth Stage be taken tomorrow.

The Dáil, on its rising tomorrow, shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 7 November 2000. Private Members' Business shall be No. 67, Twenty-First Amendment of the Constitution (No. 3) Bill, 1999 – Second Stage (resumed), to conclude at 8.30 p.m. this evening.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. The first is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 22 and 23. Is that agreed?

Mr. J. Bruton

I object to taking two questions as one. The World Trade Organisation office and the Abbeylara shooting inquiry are entirely separate matters and the issues of whether they should be debated are entirely separate questions. To put them together in one question prevents the House from considering properly the issue of whether a particular issue should be debated.

With regard to the motion that the Abbeylara report be taken without debate, I propose that the House agree to add the following words:

That the committee shall have full powers—

An Ceann Comhairle

The first question to be decided is whether the matter is to be taken without debate.

Mr. J. Bruton

On the first question, I wish to table this amendment to the motion that it be taken without debate. I am agreeable to its being taken without debate provided the following words are added to the motion that it be taken without debate:

That the committee shall have full powers to compel the attendance of any and every witness . . .

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a question before the House. It is that two items be taken without debate.

Mr. J. Bruton

Under Standing Orders I am entitled to table an amendment to any motion. The proposal that this matter be taken without debate is a motion and I am proposing an amendment, of which I gave notice to your office last night, to that motion. I wish to be allowed to move my amendment. It reads:

To add the following to the motion:

provided that the committee shall have full powers to compel the attendance of any and every witness that may be required by the committee, that the report of the committee shall be fully debated in Dáil Éireann and that the Carthy family shall have early sight of the report.

Mr. Quinn

The Labour Party shares the concerns expressed by Deputy Bruton and would support such a motion if it is in order. If it is not in order, and that is for you, Sir, to decide, we will not agree to this matter being taken unless the Taoiseach gives a categorical assurance that the thrust of the amendment proposed by Deputy Bruton will obtain Government approval.

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): The Abbeylara tragedy has been the subject of selective leaks to the media for several months, justifying the Garda position.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Higgins, are you for or against the proposal?

Mr. Higgins

(Dublin West): Because the report has been the subject of selective leaks, it must be published and should then be debated by the Dáil as a whole. The question of a public inquiry which has been demanded by the Carthy family, by civil rights groups and by people in this House should be debated and decided upon. It is not acceptable that the matter be dealt with in this way. The Dáil has been insulted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the senior Garda authorities.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not make a statement. I am putting the question. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 22 and 23 agreed? This is the only question before the House. The amendment is not in order.

Mr. Quinn

I anticipated your response, Sir, and I ask that the Taoiseach give a response. You might allow the Taoiseach the opportunity to respond.

Mr. J. Bruton

May I inquire why it is not in order?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have ruled it is not in order.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am asking, mildly, why it is not in order. This is not an unreasonable question. The Chair is accountable for his decisions, in the same as every other Member of the House. You have made a decision and I ask you to explain it, please.

An Ceann Comhairle

The amendment is an amendment to the motion itself. The motion itself is not before the House. The question is how the motion is to be taken.

Mr. J. Bruton

I have tabled an amendment both to the motion and to the manner of its being debated. The House cannot properly decide whether it is worth debating this motion until it knows whether the issues raised in the motion can be dealt with other than by debate. Therefore my amendment must be tabled at this stage as well as when the substantive motion is considered. I submit that my amendment is in order. That the amendment is being made to another question does not render it out of order in respect of the question of whether there should be a debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order to move the amendment to this question or for the amendment to be considered. The Chair has ruled on the matter.

Mr. J. Bruton

Why?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair cannot be cross-examined on his rulings.

The Taoiseach

The motion is:

That the report of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána on the fatal shooting of John Carthy at Abbeylara, County Longford on 20 April 2000 be referred to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights in accordance with paragraph (2) of the Orders of Reference of that committee.

This is what we are asking the House to agree to. I understand what Deputies Bruton and Quinn are asking. We are asking the House to agree to this. Deputies Bruton and Quinn are asking that the joint committee have the right to compel the attendance of witnesses.

Mr. Quinn

Should it request it.

The Taoiseach

It is my understanding that the procedure under the legislation dealing with the compellability of witnesses is that, as a statutory committee, the joint committee, which is representative of all the main parties in the House, can ask for this. I, for my part, would have no difficulty with this and no interest in blocking such a request. I wish to make that clear.

Mr. Quinn

Not having a difficulty and giving one's approval to ensure the majority in the House would accede to such a request are two different things. Am I to understand that if the joint committee makes such a request the Fianna Fáil Party and the Progressive Democrats will accede by majority to it?

The Taoiseach

If that is the wish of the joint committee. On the second issue raised by Deputy Bruton, that the Carthy family should have early sight of the report, if there is no legal difficulty with this, I have no difficulty, but it is a matter for a legal committee.

Mr. Quinn

Good.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Bruton said that the matter should be debated fully in the House after it has been dealt with by the joint committee. I have no difficulty with this either.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 22 and 23 agreed to? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Not debating the World Trade Organisation office and the Abbeylara inquiry are entirely separate questions. Will the Taoiseach give an assurance that when he seeks to have items taken without debate he will put them separately because there may be items that the House wishes to debate and others it may not? This joint procedure is not acceptable.

The Taoiseach

I would not interpret it that way. What I said was, "The Order of Business today shall be as follows: No. 22, motion re referral to joint committee of Abbeylara report; No. 23, motion re approval of terms of agreement establishing an Advisory Centre on World Trade Organisation Law . . . that Nos. 22 and 23 shall be decided without debate . . ."

Mr. J. Bruton

It is the second half of the order that is being put to the House.

The Taoiseach

Is the Deputy saying that I should have stated that No. 22 shall be decided without debate and that No. 23 shall be decided without debate.

Mrs. Owen

Yes.

The Taoiseach

Seven or eight items are often taken without debate. If we were to follow Deputy Bruton's logic, I would have to state that No. 1 shall be taken without debate, that No. 2 shall be taken without debate and so on. That has never been done and it is not necessary to do so.

Mr. J. Bruton

That is the way it should be done.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with the Trinity College, Dublin (Charters and Letters Patent Amendment) Bill, 1997, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal that the Dáil, on its rising tomorrow, shall adjourn until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 7 November 2000 agreed to?

Mr. Flanagan

The House resumed in plenary session following the summer recess just three weeks ago. I wonder, therefore, about the wisdom of the House not sitting in plenary session next week, given that a considerable volume of business has been scheduled for this session. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment that the A list of the Government's legislative programme will be dealt with in its entirety by the end of the year?

Mr. Quinn

Whatever about our internal business, there is widespread concern at the prospect of secondary schools being closed for up to four or five days. If that is to be the case, Deputies may wish to have the matter raised. Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the Minister for Education and Science will make a statement on the matter today or tomorrow or, alternatively, whether provision can be made next week for such a statement when the House will not meet in plenary session? Before the Labour Party assents to that proposal, I seek an indication as to how the Government proposes to address the concern of parents at the threatened closure of the secondary school system and the disruption this will cause to family life.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the matter now. The question before the House relates to the adjournment.

The Taoiseach

In reply to the Opposition Whip, it is our intention to complete all the business scheduled. There will be six long weeks of sittings. There will also be committee meetings. On the industrial relations dispute, industrial action is threatened by the ASTI, with a national one day stoppage on 14 November. The House will have plenty of time to debate the matter.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is proposal No. 3 agreed to? We cannot have a prolonged discussion on it.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach is getting shy in his replies. It is impossible to hear him on this side of the House. Either there is a problem with the volume on the other side of the House or it is fortitude. I am not sure what the Taoiseach said.

Mrs. Owen

He has been told to soften the effect.

Mr. Quinn

This is not the first time we have raised this point. We have raised it on a number of occasions.

The Taoiseach

I am not responsible for sound in the House. I will not start to roar. If I do, I will upset people.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach's normal clear voice.

Mrs. Owen

The Taoiseach has gone quiet.

The Taoiseach

In reply to the Fine Gael Whip, Deputy Flanagan, I said that we will deal with all the business scheduled on the A list before the Christmas recess. There will be six long weeks of sittings and committee meetings. A strike is threatened by the Association of Secondary Teachers of Ireland and is due to commence on 14 November. The House will have time to debate the matter before then.

Mr. Quinn

Do we have to wait until then?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal relating to the adjournment agreed to? Agreed.

Mr. J. Bruton

Is an inquiry being commissioned by the Minister for the Environment and Local Government into the awarding of contracts to the national toll roads company to assure the House that donations which may have been made to then Fianna Fáil politicians in no way influenced the decision-making process?

An Ceann Comhairle

Matters which may come before the tribunal should not be raised.

Mr. J. Bruton

I am asking about an inquiry which may be made by the Department independently of any tribunal or other inquiry. It is important that the Minister for the Environment and Local Government assures the House that these spectacular payments did not have any influence.

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Taoiseach wish to comment?

The Taoiseach

The various tribunals are investigating many matters. They will have access to the files of Departments which are co-operating fully with them.

Mr. Belton

More tolls than truth.

Mr. Quinn

I am aware that the Second Stage of an education Bill is being taken, but the Minister for Education and Science will not have an opportunity to respond. In view of the fact that our secondary school system will effectively be closed on 22, 23, 28, 29 and 30 November for reasons of insurance cover, as supervision will not be provided by the secondary school teachers' union, and because of the disruptive effect this will have on families which will be required to make alternative arrangements – courtesy requires that they should be informed in advance of what is likely to happen – will the Minister for Education and Science be in a position to make a statement to the House today or tomorrow indicating what will happen and the action, if any, that can be taken by the Government to resolve the matter?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy can raise the matter in a number of ways. If he does, I am sure the Minister for Education and Science will respond.

Mr. Finucane

Will the Taoiseach clarify the position regarding an ombudsman for the Defence Forces? The Minister for Defence announced recently that an ombudsman would be provided for. Will legislation be required?

An Ceann Comhairle

Legislation has not been promised.

Mr. Finucane

Will legislation be required?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a parliamentary question on the matter.

Mr. Finucane

The Minister announced recently that he would—

An Ceann Comhairle

I understand from the Taoiseach—

Mr. Finucane

It is a reasonable request.

An Ceann Comhairle

—that no legislation has been promised.

Dr. Upton

Given that chiropractors may have custody and use of X-ray equipment and are not regulated by a statutory body, when will the Radiological Protection (Amendment) Bill, 1998, finally be enacted?

The Taoiseach

I understand it has been before a committee of the House for some time.

Mr. Stagg

It is sitting there.

The Taoiseach

I will ask that the matter be moved on. If my note is correct, it has been under consideration for one year. I am not sure what is the cause of the delay with the committee.

Mr. Noonan

I reluctantly return to a question I asked the Taoiseach last week about promised legislation to establish a single regulator for the financial services industry. We in our party are not clear that anything is happening. Will the Taoiseach indicate if the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Minister for Finance is responsible for the legislation? Which of them will introduce it to the House?

The Taoiseach

The reply to that question has not changed overnight. It is the same as I indicated yesterday at 4.30 p.m.

Mr. Noonan

Questions on legislation on the Order of Business are customarily answered in the House. If the Government has taken a decision, which Minister is responsible for this legislation?

The Taoiseach

As I said yesterday, that decision has not been made. It is likely that the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment or the Minister for Finance will introduce the legislation.

Mr. Noonan

Only one Minister can introduce the legislation.

The Taoiseach

That is what I said. Either one.

Mr. Noonan

The Taoiseach is familiar with Bills. The back cover of a Bill indicates which Minister has presented it. Will the Minister for Finance or the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment introduce this legislation? Could I have a straight answer to a straight question?

An Ceann Comhairle

Order, please.

The Taoiseach

As soon as the Deputy sees the Bill it will be clear to him which Minister has presented it.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Noonan

That is not good enough. It is appalling that the Taoiseach cannot inform the House which of his Ministers will be responsible for introducing key legislation. It has been promised for years.

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter cannot be pursued any further. We must move on. I call Deputy Quinn on the Order of Business.

Mr. Noonan

No, a Cheann Comhairle. Last week the Taoiseach pretended this matter had been resolved in Cabinet. It is clear it has not and he cannot tell the House which Minister is responsible. If there was a Cabinet decision, as he told the House, he would be able to say which Minister will be responsible.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have prolonged statements on the matter. This is the Order of Business. It cannot be pursued further.

Mr. Noonan

I am entitled to an answer.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Noonan should resume his seat.

Mr. Noonan

I am entitled to an answer, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call an end to the Order of Business if the Deputy does not resume his seat.

Mr. Noonan

You should ask the Taoiseach to reply to the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not the function of the Chair.

Mr. Noonan

It deals with promised legislation and a request to know which Minister will introduce it. The Taoiseach has informed the House that all relevant decisions have been taken in Cabinet.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on the Deputy to resume his seat and be orderly. I call Deputy Quinn. A question on the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

Is the Taoiseach incapable of getting agreement between the two Ministers?

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. Quinn

The Taoiseach has a right to answer the question on the Order of Business. Deputy Noonan and numerous other Deputies have requested that this matter be resolved. It has taken the Government three years to meet the credit unions. Will the Taoiseach say what is wrong?

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat and allow the Order of Business to proceed.

Mr. Quinn

On the Order of Business, will the Taoiseach indicate when the legislation will be ready and which Minister will introduce it? Either he does not know or he can give a straight answer, one or the other.

An Ceann Comhairle

Questions about which Minister is responsible for introducing legislation are not in order on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

A Cheann Comhairle, would you not agree that truthful answers are in order on the Order of Business? Last week on the Order of Business the Taoiseach said that the issue as to which Minister is responsible for the legislation in question had been settled. Now he is unable to answer the question as to which Minister will sponsor the relevant Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant to the Order of Business.

Mr. J. Bruton

The matter has not been settled, therefore, the Taoiseach did not give an accurate answer to the question put last week. Why is the Government taking so long to make up its mind on this issue? What is the cause of the paralysis in Cabinet on the matter? Is the Taoiseach not aware that the Government's inability to decide a personality dispute between two individuals is doing great damage to the financial services industry and to Ireland's international financial reputation?

The Taoiseach

Legislation on the single regulatory authority will be produced as quickly as possible. It is not yet decided which Minister will introduce the legislation.

Mr. Hayes

New information.

The Taoiseach

It is important to deal with the matter. It can affect the financial services sector. It is not a question of a personality issue, but of how best to deal with the legislation that governs present legislation on the Central Bank and with the consumer aspect.

Mr. J. Bruton

It has taken three years so far.

Mr. Quinn

So the matter is not yet resolved.

Mr. Noonan

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair has pointed out that questions about which Minister is responsible for legislation are not in order on the Order of Business. Deputy Noonan on a point of order.

Mr. Noonan

In the light of the Taoiseach now giving us accurate information, will he correct the record of the House which he misled last week when he indicated that this matter was resolved? We all know that until a Minister is assigned the responsibility to introduce legislation nothing happens in its preparation. The Taoiseach is misleading the House when he says he can give a commitment that the legislation will be introduced at the earliest opportunity. He has no idea when it will be introduced unless he knows which Minister is responsible for it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on the Taoiseach.

Mr. Rabbitte

On the same point, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte, resume your seat. I call on the Taoiseach. I will give Deputy Rabbitte the floor next.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Noonan is well aware that this matter arises from a committee and its report on how best to take it forward.

Mr. Noonan

It was chaired by Michael McDowell.

The Taoiseach

It was chaired by an independent person, who is now the Attorney General. The legislation arises from that report. It does not arise from a memorandum brought forward by a Department. The legislation will be prepared based on the report presented.

Mr. Noonan

That is not correct.

The Taoiseach

That is correct.

Mr. Noonan

The Taoiseach is deliberately misleading the House. He is changing the record of the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Noonan should not interrupt the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I am telling the Deputy what is correct. He does not know what he is talking about.

Mr. Noonan

The Taoiseach is either deliberately misleading the House or he does not know what is going on.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Noonan should resume his seat. I call Deputy Rabbitte.

Mr. Rabbitte

On the same point, a Cheann Comhairle, you might be able to help. The question put to the Taoiseach on a number of occasions was if the dispute between the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment and the Minister for Finance had been resolved in respect of the legislation to regulate the financial services industry. He indicated that it was. It is now clear that there has been no resolution of this issue. A Cheann Comhairle, you ought to require the Taoiseach—

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant to the Order of Business, nor are questions about which Minister is responsible for legislation.

Mr. Rabbitte

You ought to require the Taoiseach to correct the record.

Mr. Belton

There is trouble in Paradise.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on Deputy Gormley.

Mr. Gormley

On the subject of truth and on promised legislation, on the Order of Business on 5 October the Taoiseach told me that no specific legislation was required for the introduction of a tax or a levy on plastic bags. That is not the case. The Department of the Environment and Local Government has told me that primary legislation is required.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please ask his question?

Mr. Gormley

Will the Taoiseach say why he misinformed me and the House on this important issue? What will be the title of the Bill to be introduced? Why is it not on the list of promised legislation when it has to be introduced?

The Taoiseach

As I told the Deputy previously, this can be done either by regulation or through the Finance Bill. It does not require separate legislation.

Mr. Gormley

That is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley, resume your seat. I call Deputy Naughten.

Mr. Gormley

That statement is not true.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot have debates on the Order of Business. The Deputy should resume his seat.

Mr. Gormley

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair is on his feet. There cannot be a point of order when the Chair is on his feet.

Mr. Gormley

On a point of order—

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The Order of Business is not the occasion for making points of order. The Deputy must resume his seat. I call Deputy Naughten on the Order of Business. Will the Deputy resume his seat? If the Deputy continues to disobey the Chair he knows the consequences.

Mr. Gormley

Will you let me make my point?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gormley should resume his seat.

Mr. Gormley

A Cheann Comhairle, I received a reply to Parliamentary Question No. 156—

An Ceann Comhairle

I have asked the Deputy to resume his seat.

Mr. Gormley

—that legislation is required to give effect—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat.

Mr. Gormley

That is what is stated here.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call on the Deputy to leave the House. The Deputy must leave the House.

Mr. Gormley

He does not know what he is talking about.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called on the Deputy to leave the House.

Mr. Gormley

This is wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy leave the House?

Mr. J. O'Keeffe

That is not fair.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Quinn

This House cannot do its business unless we get factual—

Mr. Gormley

We are being misinformed here every single day.

Mr. Quinn

He misled the House.