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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 14 Dec 2000

Vol. 528 No. 3

Broadcasting Bill, 1999: Report Stage (Resumed) and Final Stage.

Debate resumed on amendment No. 6:
In page 9, between lines 44 and 45, to insert the following:
"(5) The transmission company shall endeavour to ensure, in so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, that the services provided by it are made available to the whole community in the State.".
–(Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht
and the Islands).

I was referring to Deputy Barrett's contribution regarding the fact that RTE would have a shareholding in the transmission company. The Deputy felt this was strange but he will know that RTE has had transmission responsibilities since its foundation.

The other issue referred to was the use of frequencies. The use of the frequencies concerned will be licensed to the operator in the same way as frequencies are licensed to many other users in the broadcasting and other sectors.

Amendments Nos. 6 and 11 refer to universal coverage and the purpose of amendment No. 6 is to try to obtain 100% coverage. We would like to see 100% coverage, however, as has been pointed out at various stages during this Bill, such coverage is not possible because of technical difficulties. The amendments are in response to concerns expressed by Deputies O'Shea and Clune regarding universal coverage and the DTT platform. The amendments encompass the Deputies' concerns.

Amendment agreed to.
Amendments Nos. 7 to 9, inclusive, not moved.

Acting Chairman

Amendments Nos. 10, 28 and 30 are related and may be taken together.

I move amendment No. 10:

In page 12, line 44, to delete "designated".

These amendments are proposed as a consequence of the amendments introduced on Committee Stage providing for the establishment of separate transmission and multiplex companies. Essentially the amendments were overlooked on that Stage.

Amendment No. 10 deletes the word "designated" from section 8(3)(b) as it is no longer an appropriate reference. The original text referred to a designated company only. Amendment No. 28 takes account of new DTT arrangements proposed in the Bill by replacing references to the words “designated company” in section 16(7) with references to the transmission company and the multiplex company.

Amendment No. 30 is designed to bring the original text of section 16(9) into line with the new arrangements. Apart from these drafting issues the amendments do not change the intentions of the original text.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 11:

In page 13, before line 1, to insert the following:

"(4) The multiplex company shall endeavour to ensure, in so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, that the services provided by it are made available to the whole community in the State.".

Amendment agreed to.

Acting Chairman

Amendment No. 12 is consequential on amendment No. 13 and these amendments may be taken together.

I move amendment No. 12:

In page 14, line 22, after "may" to insert ", subject to subsection (8),”.

I have tabled these amendments in response to concerns expressed by Deputy O'Shea on Committee Stage on the procedure which should be applied when a Minister intends to revoke a direction given under section 9(7) to the commission. Deputies will be aware that a direction under this provision would oblige the multiplex company to make capacity available for television broadcasting services from the North.

Amendment No. 13 proposes that the Minister may only revoke such a direction for stated reasons if, and only if, resolutions are passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas. Amendment No. 12 clarifies that a direction under section 9(7) can only be revoked subject to the new requirements proposed in amendment No. 13. This satisfies Deputy O'Shea's concerns.

I thank the Minister for tabling these amendments which meet the difficulties I foresaw on Committee Stage. I fully support the amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 13:

In page 14, between lines 25 and 26, to insert the following:

"(8) The Minister shall not revoke a direction under subsection (7) otherwise than for stated reasons and then only upon resolutions passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas calling for such revocation.”.

Amendment agreed to.

Acting Chairman

Amendments Nos. 22, 23, 24, 106 and 107 are related to amendment No. 14 and they may be taken together by agreement.

I move amendment No. 14:

In page 15, between lines 5 and 6, to insert the following:

"10.–The Commission shall renew the licence of a broadcasting licence holder when it expires for a period of not less than five years if the licence holder has complied with the requirements of the licence.".

I tabled this amendment following representations to a number of Deputies regarding the future of local broadcasting and the future for local broadcasters in terms of the renewal of their licences. The licences of a number of independent local broadcasters are due for renewal within the next 12 months. There is no guarantee that the licences of existing licence holders will be renewed. That is why I tabled this amendment to the effect that when the licences of such licence holders should be renewed they should be renewed for a period of not less than five years provided they have complied with the requirements of licence.

Many local broadcasters have invested a good deal of money in their stations and developed a strong market around the country, as is evident from their listenership figures. They play an important role in public service broadcasting. They provide a service to which people want to listen and in which they have interest and wish to contribute. Some local radio stations have an extraordinarily high listenership, given that they operate in direct competition with national broadcasters.

In the event of digital advancement in audio and visual broadcasting, these radio stations will need to make a substantial investment to upgrade their equipment and to prepare for the advancement of audio broadcasting. Because of the uncertainty surrounding the renewal of their licences, it is difficult for many, and impossible for some of them to obtain funding to invest in their stations at this stage. The amendment seeks to ensure that certainty will surround the renewal of such licences and the uncertainty that exists regarding their renewal, which is a cause of worry to many local stations, would be removed.

I stress that local radio stations are not opposed to competition. They merely seek to have their licences renewed. They welcome competition. They have proved they can survive and do well in the face of strong national competition. I would not like to give the impression that acceptance of this amendment would be at the expense of all other operations. It would not be. This amendment seeks to ensure that the licences of those who have invested and who have a proven track record in local broadcasting would be renewed subject to their complying with the requirements of the existing licence.

Amendments Nos. 22, 23 and 24 are in my name. An amendment similar to amendment No. 24 was tabled on Committee Stage and debated at length. Essentially, the licences of many local radio stations are due for renewal in a year's time. There is a concern among the licence holders that the licences will be advertised again and there will be a competition for them. The Labour Party considers such an approach would be unfair.

There are a number of issues involved. Stations that are uncertain about their future tenure will find it difficult to retain staff. If such staff can move to other employment with more security, it is logical that they would do so. The current position is one of anti-investment in the local radio stations. Who will invest in new equipment to upgrade such stations against the background that the licence of the local radio stations may not be renewed in the next round of applications? With regard to the uncertainty surrounding employment, it is not beneficial for local radio stations that their more talented staff can be attracted out of the local area because the local station cannot guarantee any term of employment beyond the period when the licences come up for renewal.

The basis of these amendments is not anti-competition. These stations broadcast to a limited audience. The return on investment in these stations is gained over time. From the point of view of investors, upgrading of the service provided and the need to ensure certainty surrounds employment in these stations. I ask the Minister to consider the amendments tabled by the Labour Party, one of which is similar to a Committee Stage amendment and the other two were tabled following representations by representatives of the local radio sector.

The Minister tabled amendments Nos. 106 and 107. I look forward to her presentation of those and to being convinced that they effectively will address the problems we presented to her on Committee Stage.

I support my colleague, Deputy Clune, in what she endeavours to achieve in her amendment. As a Member who represents a Dublin constituency, unfortunately I do not have access to the type of local radio service available in Cork, Limerick and other cities enjoyed by my colleagues who represent rural constituencies. Dublin people have access to a few commercial radio stations but not local radio stations.

Acting Chairman

They do not cover the funerals.

Every time I drive outside Dublin I tune in to the local radio station. Local stations provide a great service for the local community. They have proven they are well able to compete with national broadcasting organisations. They supply a unique service to the people in the communities they serve. If we are talking about building community spirit, they are an integral part of that. Acceptance of the amendment proposed by Deputy Clune would give certainty to those stations that are pursuing a policy, which we hoped would be pursued when the licences were issued in the first instance.

Deputy O'Shea's points were valid. These local stations need to retain their staff. Those who work in local radio broadcasting build up a relationship with their listenership. It would be terrible if due to uncertainty about the future tenure of such stations, there was a movement away from local stations. That point made by Deputy O'Shea is valid.

Will the Minister indicate if she could persuade the commission to promote the concept of local radio in the greater Dublin area. If any area needs local radio, the Dublin region does, as it is so sprawling the people who live on one side of the road often do not know the people who live on the other side of the road. With regard to proper planning and development, local radio stations help to build a community spirit and inform people of what is happening in their local areas.

There is a local authority in my constituency, Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council. We have a free sheet but not the local written press to which many rural members are fortunate to have access in their constituencies. We do not have local radio in my constituency. There is an absence of coverage of what is happening in local communities. All one need do is observe the turnout in local elections in the greater urban areas. The turnout is declining because people are not relating to what is happening in their local communities because they do not hear what is happening. Local authorities in Dublin compete for space in national newspapers. The Minister lived in Dublin for a long time and knows what I am talking about. I hope she accepts this amendment as it will bring certainty to those who are fortunate enough to have local radio in their communities. Will the Minister promote and encourage the concept of developing a local radio system in the greater Dublin area as it would be good for proper planning? I do not begrudge local radio to those who have it in their areas, as it is marvellous, but it is certainly absent from my area. The Minister should accept this reasonable amendment, which sets out the requirement that those who are issued licences must comply with the requirements of the previous licence issued.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): I also support this amendment, as local radio has given the country tremendous service. I know certain regulations and standards are set out for local radio and I do not suggest that a station that issues balderdash every day should have its licence renewed automatically but many of them give an excellent service. It is very helpful to know what is going on at a local level. Deputy Barrett mentioned the absence of a similar radio station in Dublin and even if it were only for announcing the deaths, a practice I am not sure the Chair favours—

Acting Chairman

I was demonstrating the difference between the two.

(Carlow-Kilkenny): Death notices on local radio serve a very important purpose. Many people do not buy the newspapers and many deaths are not announced in those newspapers because of the expense. If a business consortium can outbid local people for a station it would probably have no interest in such local matters. It is important to be able to announce there are floods or traffic jams in certain parts of the county, not to mention snails going at a slow pace.

Is the Deputy referring to himself?

(Carlow-Kilkenny): No. My problem is I go too fast all the time. I am celebrating an anniversary so I survived it all. It is important that these local crises are announced to the public. I would not expect RTE to be able to announce flooding in Leighlinbridge or Bagenalstown.

Regarding their coverage of local sport, when the Blues of Carlow beat Nimo Rangers next February in the semi-final of the All-Ireland Club Championship everyone in Carlow will be listening to that great news. I would not expect RTE to cover that even in February but local radio does.

One member of the staff of CKR has been employed there for ten years, since the station was founded. Staff have a right to some continuity if they are giving the service, but they also have an advantage because of their experience over time, because of the expense they have gone to for the station to upgrade standards and because of the expertise of the staff: the three Xs. All their work and investment should be rewarded. They should not just be beaten by someone with far more money who can afford to pay a PR company to produce a marvellous glossy application that might sway those in authority.

Ordinary people want a practical service and the Minister should accept this reasonable amendment. We might fit it into a political Bill also so that Deputies who have given five years' service would be automatically re-elected.

I agree with previous speakers' comments about local radio. The Minister does not want to harm local radio and I hope she accepts one of these amendments. Local radio supplies something national media cannot offer regarding local matters. Deputy Browne referred to some features of local radio. I add the community diary, where a group can place an advertisement for nothing. It is not often nowadays that one can run a function and have advertisements, through local radio, that are heard in every house in the area at no cost. That can be of huge benefit to groups such as old age pensioners' groups or community organisations.

Those involved in local radio want to be part of the community and to work to better that community. That is one of the solid aspects of local radio that we must help. There is also linkage between many local radio stations. Deputy Browne mentioned the match between Nimo Rangers and O'Hanrahans, or the Blues. When a club or county team plays away from home there is often a linkage between CKR, for example, and the local radio station in the area in which the game is taking place, to facilitate a commentary. That provides entertainment for people, particularly old age pensioners and the disabled, who cannot get to these games. They depend on local radio commentary to find out how games are going.

Local radio stations have made a major effort in that way to become part of the community. I have spoken to the owners of local radio stations and they often say they will not ever get back the money they have invested but they want to be part of the community. If we do not protect that and a national media empire is allowed into this field we will destroy something every political party works with and uses when they want to bring matters to the attention of their constituents. If this goes national we will lose something and we will not get it back. People will be afraid to invest money because there will be no security for their investment. In many cases they invest money for the community, as they have no guarantees they will get the money back and as a result, we benefit both through our parties and as Deputies.

The Minister should give serious consideration to this amendment. We have received representations from our various stations – Deputy Browne probably had major representations from CKR, which has been one of the major successes of local radio; it has supplied some national figures who have come up through community radio and has one of the highest listenership levels any where in the country. I implore the Minister to incorporate a provision along the lines of this amendment into the Bill in order to give the necessary protection to local radio stations across the country. This will be of benefit to everyone. It will mean that each station will know its little empire is not under threat. The good work they do will enable them to ensure that funding will be available to advance the station in their area. That network of stations has proved to be of major benefit to each community and nationally because of the network they have set up to report certain events. One can hear Cork FM for instance broadcasting up to date information on sport, news or whatever is of interest on a given day.

It is not the Minister's intention to harm community radio. I implore her to show that, by accepting one of the amendments before her and thereby ensuring that this part of Irish life will be protected for the future.

Can we hear the Minister? She might accept this.

Let us hear Deputy Ring.

I support Deputy Clune and I ask the Minister to accept this amendment because there is great concern particularly among people working for local radio stations. Local radio is the greatest thing that happened in this State. For far too long, the national media did not cover local events. When governments had the opportunity, they did not legislate to make the national stations operate community stations. If they had done that, RTE would have total control of the airwaves.

I come from the west of Ireland, where we have mid west and north west radio. The community loves the service and the figures have proven that the local stations have the most listeners, more than RTE and they have done well nationally. They have the highest listenership countrywide for local radio. The staff are concerned. It is wrong if these stations have been operating within the law and doing the job right, that they should have to re-apply for the licences. The people who should have to re-apply for the licences are the people who broke the law and who have not operated within their licences. That is not the case with 99.9% of the local stations. I do not see why this uncertainty should be created.

Local radio covers sports events, community events and even the death notices, which Deputy O'Malley might think is a joke. The only time the west of Ireland and rural areas ever got a mention in the national papers was in the death notices but the people had to pay for it. I am glad to say that I look forward to seeing the Minister stopping what is happening now, such as what happened in Cork recently, where big money makers, big investors such as Granada and outside influences came in to buy local radio stations. The Minister should tell these people that we will not allow it. For too long, there was a monopoly in RTE, but that is no longer the case. We do not want to see a monopoly such as the one involving the daily newspapers, the Irish Independent and the associated Independent Newspapers group, which has total control in the State over what happens in the media. We do not want outside influences with big money coming in and taking over the local stations. The people in local radio have done the job well and my radio station has done the job well. Deputy Higgins will tell the Minister that my local radio gives fair coverage to anybody who wants to speak on radio, whether they be Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour. Many people in political parties do not want to speak and then they blame the radio station although they are afraid to go on and express their own point of view. Local radio is open to everybody, to community, to political parties and to sporting organisations.

It has worked and the Minister should not tamper with anything that has worked. In this State we spend too long tampering with things that work and then they will not work. Local radio has worked and has been the greatest success among many things that have happened in this State. I want to see community television added on to radio service. That should be the next step so that along with hearing us, people will be able to see us. It is difficult enough to get on the national airwaves, to get on RTE. When the story breaks, where do they go first? Straight to Dublin city. The rural man, if he is a spokesman for anything, never gets a chance, it always has to be the city man.

Thank God for local radio. The Minister should accept this amendment which recognises the wonderful work of the local radios. As Deputy Higgins will tell the Minister, we have great people like Paula Walsh, Liam McNally and Teresa O'Malley who do a great job. They are household names now. They can be heard in the morning and the evening and we listen to death notices twice a day and we try not to miss any funerals. We know what is going on – thank God for local radio. We want it left there forever. The people who have the licences have done a good job. They do not mind competition and they have competition such as RTE, BBC and Sky. However, this is not about competition, it is about giving people security in that profession and the opportunity to know that their jobs will be there next year or the year after.

The Minister should be honourable and do the right thing and accept the amendment. I think she will because she is that kind of a Minister.

(Mayo): I support the views of my colleague, Deputy Ring. It is very difficult to compete with that kind of oratory, or that kind of conviction or passion. However, we are singing from the same hymn sheet. I am at a loss to know why these stations which have proven their credentials, which have been subjected to the most rigorous of standards, which are constantly being surveyed by the Independent Radio and Television Commission, and have met the most rigorous of standards, cannot be taken at face value and be deemed automatically to have the right to licence renewal. The Minister in her amendment No. 106 is to some extent attempting to address the concerns of the radio stations. However, it would be too bad if their track record was not taken into consideration. Their bona fides are proven on the basis of their track record. I cannot understand why they cannot be guaranteed continuity of their licence for the next few years, by virtue of the fact that they have come from very small beginnings – many of them have come out of the twilight zone of the pirate stations – they have proven their credentials and have built a very strong and credible track record. That is all that is being sought.

On having proven their worth and their credentials, local radios have been universally successful in tapping in to the feelings and spirit of the local community and in enhancing the local community, as Deputy Ring and the other speakers said. All one has to do is look at the range of programmes they provide. Not alone do they provide top quality local news, they also provide huge community service by way of providing amplification for local community functions and various fetes and occasions.

Not alone that, they have given communities confidence in their identity, their individuality and their own worth. They have done a huge amount in terms of building morale within communities. These communities would be largely ignored if they were depending on the national television or radio service. In fairness it would be impossible for a national station to give the kind of blanket universal coverage required. The local stations have provided a huge service for the local communities. In addition, they have also provided a sounding board and a platform. They are the very essence of democracy in allowing people freedom of speech in relation to what local people think about a range or issues, political and otherwise.

It would be ironic and wrong if the blanket of protection was removed from them at this stage because they are still at an embryonic stage of development. Many of them have invested heavily in studios, building, equipment and staff. Very often they have developed a top class broadcaster only to see that individual poached by somebody else. However, there is very little they can do about it. In that regard they provide an invaluable service in terms of grooming talent at local level, such as young journalists, bringing them from the fledgling stage to a considerable stage of maturity only then to have them snatched from under their noses. They provide an invaluable service in terms of grooming a considerable amount of local talent from the point of view of culture, music and the range of local activities that are nurtured by local radio. They have invested heavily and, without grant-aid, have developed into top class local facilities.

Many are at a stage when they thought they could commence stage two of their development. My local radio station in Mayo, which is also that of Deputy Ring and others, provides a service to Roscommon and north and east Galway. It has elaborate investment and development plans for phase two. What bank manager in his sane senses would give a loan to a company when there is a question mark hanging over its future? Despite the Minister's assurance that, from the point of view of being granted a licence, their track record will speak for itself, there is no guarantee of that. I do not understand why an exception cannot be made for these cases.

I support the amendment and commend Deputy Clune for tabling it. We are not doing this out of pragmatism or for our political welfare but out of a belief that these people have proved their worth, have a proven track record, passed the most rigorous scrutiny tests, reached the highest possible standards and there is no reason they should not be allowed to continue to do so.

I support the amendment. Local radio has transformed rural Ireland. In the past, radio revolved around what happened in Dublin. Local radio stations have changed the listening habits of the community and the involvement of people in their local communities. They provide comprehensive coverage of local events, issues and so on. In my area, Radio 3 is on one side of the county and Shannonside is on the other. They cover various events on a regular basis, be it the county championship final or whatever and bring the county score and the results to the local community at an early stage, very often with a light commentary. They give people an opportunity to discuss local issues on radio and provide a comprehensive service.

They have a range of programmes providing a very good mix. In the old days of pirate radio stations, there was wall to wall music day after day. Local radio stations provide news programmes, talk shows, music and cultural programmes. They cover a range of events. The local news is the one most listened to. If politicians speak on the local radio, people hear them. Local stations have a great listenership. People respond to what they hear on these stations and we must ensure that is nurtured.

As regards staff turnover at local radio stations, unfortunately they operate on a shoestring. It is difficult for them to secure money for investment because of the uncertainty hanging over them. If a broadcaster is not well paid he or she will move to another job. They may have gained very valuable experience on the local radio. That is a pity from a local point of view because good broadcasters and journalists are invaluable. They record what is happening and keep everyone informed and on their toes. Good journalists are being lost because they do not have continuity of employment and the rate of pay is not high. One of RTE's presenters in the midlands area, Ciaran Mulooly, started his apprenticeship with a local radio and worked with it for quite some time before moving, very successfully, to RTE. That is an indication that local radio fulfils a worthwhile role in training people in the broadcasting media.

I support the amendment and hope the Minister, being a pragmatic person, will see the merit in it and accept it.

The fine values of local radio stations have been outlined already. I commend Deputy Clune for tabling this amendment and I am confident the Minister will see it as reasonable. The Independent Radio and Television Commission is the supervisory and regulatory body for local stations. They must have a balance between news and music and if they transgress as regards output, they are monitored and tracked on an ongoing basis. Surely it makes sense if they have an established track record to allocate licences for five years or longer.

As the Minister knows, in County Limerick there are five radio stations, Clare FM, Kerry Radio, Limerick Radio, County Sound and Tipperary FM. The strength of local radio is dominant in rural Ireland and provides an important lifeline for elderly people who listen, on an ongoing basis, to the radio station. Many people do not buy newspapers. They do not monitor what is happening but they hear the issues on local radio, be it a council estimates meeting or whatever. There is a chat show on most radio stations in the mornings. One is allowed a good deal of time to put forward one's case. We are in the Dáil until late at night speaking on various issues. In many cases, no-one picks up the message we send out. Local radio is the only medium available to politicians who wish to communicate with the people who elected them, particularly if the issue is pertinent to them. It provides an opportunity for those who elected us to the Dáil and to local authorities to hear us in action trying to deliver the goods for our constituencies.

There should be no uncertainty if radio stations are operating properly. This amendment is important because it would provide continuity in cases where stations have an established track record. Those who commence their careers in local radio and then move on to national newspapers or the national broadcasting station, bring an important quality with them in that they can empathise with rural people. Iarla Mongey has been appointed assistant Government press officer. I am sure the Minister is aware he was employed in a local radio station. I heard an interview with him last week. He was being congratulated on his appointment and he stated the length of time he had been with the radio station. He praised politicians because he had an idea of what we were doing in Leinster House and he spoke about the hours and maximum effort we put into the job. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle knows that a segment of the electorate has no appreciation of the hours we devote to our work. Quite often the media focuses very unfairly on the negative aspects. If one wants to highlight an example of that, one has only to read the recent Buckley report which covers a layer of—

I think the Deputy is wandering well away from the amendments before the House.

I am giving an example.

We are on Report Stage, not Second Stage, of the Broadcasting Bill, 1999.

The media focuses exclusively on the negative side.

I ask the Deputy to come back to the amendments.

In regard to that radio interview, I was delighted to hear a person speak up and relay an understanding of what we do.

It is extremely important to preserve continuity for those radio stations and that is why I fully support the amendments and I am sure the Minister will support them as well.

I support Deputy Clune's amendment on this issue. I am sure the Minister recognises the importance of local radio. The growth of local radio in the past ten years has been tremendous. Most local radio stations have found an important niche in their own communities. That has to be acknowledged. Anything we do to damage, eliminate or curtail local radio would be a retrograde step. For that reason, I hope the Minister will take on board the opinion on this side of the House in regard to the development of local radio and the continuation of confidence in it.

Members have said that support for these amendments should not be seen as avoidance of competition. The 21 local radio stations have proved themselves over the past ten years or so. They are viable operations which are very important in their local communities. The Minister would be the first to appreciate that there is a bias in favour of national radio and this amendment must be viewed in that context. If we, through our acceptance of this amendment, level the playing pitch – nobody is asking for anything more – we would do a good day's work on this aspect of the Broadcasting Bill.

It is important that each of us recognise the importance of our local radio station, and I am thinking of Galway Bay FM. It has shown itself to be a tremendous quality radio station. It covers the broad spectrum of society and its programming represents that spectrum. Galway Bay FM has shown confidence by constructing a new headquarters which is ample example of its directors commitment to local radio. We have to acknowledge that. Galway Bay FM, with its high grade and up to date equipment, is probably one of the best radio stations in the country. It is important that we, through the acceptance of this amendment, give local radio stations confidence that nothing we do further down the line will damage them.

If we give local radio stations that confidence, they will be encouraged to develop further. I am thinking in particular of extending into the area of education – I am sure this forms part of the plans of many local radio stations. It is probably the one area which has been lacking, but lacking in so far as local radio stations did not have the funds and most of their investments were confined to the presentation of programmes, current affairs, music, agriculture and the arts, all of which are adequately covered. My local radio station, Galway Bay FM, has probably the finest range of programmes of any local radio station. Local radio has a vital role to play in education, an area into which it must expand.

I draw Deputy Burke's attention to the fact that we are on Report Stage and not Second Stage of the Bill. We are wandering well away from the amendment before us.

Through acceptance of this amendment, investment could accrue to local radio stations. Everything must be transparent. If people think the renewal of licences in the manner proposed in the Bill would be transparent and that acceptance of this amendment would mean it would not be, they are mistaken. There is a need for continued confidence in local radio. This is one way we can give such confidence as it will allow the developments to which I referred, including expansion into the area of education.

I ask the Deputy to come back to the amendment. The amendment deals with the renewal of licences and has nothing to do with what should be broadcast on local radio.

Yes. That is related to the potential investment. If the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would allow me to continue—

I am not going to allow Deputy Burke to continue because the amendments are very specific.

A number of speakers want to contribute. The debate is due to conclude at 6 p.m. We are on Report Stage of the Bill.

I ask the Minister to take on board this amendment in so far as it will give the necessary confidence to local radio to continue. I would like to see all local radio stations, particularly in my area, continuing to develop.

I will do my best not to be repetitive but I agree with the previous speakers in regard to the contribution local radio has made to communities. It has done more to recognise cultural diversity than any other medium. It has taken into account local dialects. Those who would not go on national radio go on local radio with a lot more confidence because they are speaking to an audience which can understand their dialect. That is an aspect of local radio that may not be fully understood.

I agree with all the other reasons put forward in regard to community development. We all referred to our own local radio stations and Radio Kerry has been one of the most successful in the country and has created concepts like the "Rambling House" and many more that are now being used by other local radio stations.

It will probably be a number of years before another broadcasting Bill is brought before this House. I am sure the Minister hopes there will not be another one – certainly not in her time, however long that will last.

This is an opportunity. Deputy Clune is seeking a five year period and that is what the representative body of local radio is also seeking. I appeal to the Minister, as a Deputy representing a rural constituency, to accede to this request. The people in Radio Kerry want to make a major investment in the radio station. As the Minister knows, the transition from analogue to digital will be very expensive and they will not have the capacity to borrow if this is not accepted. If the licence has to be renewed and if there are other competitors, those with capacity to make a huge investment will have the advantage.

I do not know precisely what the new licensing conditions would be but it seems that would be the way to introduce competition. That is fair enough but people have to be given a period in which to consolidate their position, to develop their programmes and so on. Will the Minister accede to this reasonable request. It would be different if it was open-ended but it is not; it is five years which is a reasonable amount of time. It is probable that after five years, broadcasting in Ireland will be looked at again. If it is not working and if certain radio stations are not fulfilling their obligation the licence should be up for renewal and available to a competitor. The point has been well made. The Minister is able to stand on her own two feet, she is an independent lady and makes her own decisions. I ask her to accept our wisdom. This side is not misleading the Minister. This is an issue on which she would gain many kudos throughout the length and breadth of Ireland if she were to accede to this request.

I support the amendment in the name of Deputy Clune. It is a reasonable amendment and I know the Minister to be a reasonable person. I shall be parochial and speak about the service in my area, Northern Sound, of which the Leas-Cheann Comhairle would be aware and from which he has derived many benefits. It has a proven track record. This station which is extremely popular has an excellent staff. It provides a service that is particular to the catchment area of Cavan-Monaghan, Longford, Westmeath. The announcements and the advertisements give a lift to the people in the area. It provides local news items as well as the national and international news. Local news, local sporting events and obituaries are all covered by local radio. This is a tremendous service that cannot be ignored. Deputy Clune's amendment is not only timely but appropriate. I have had representations from the staff who are concerned about the continuity of their jobs. Good quality people with a certain appeal or a certain quality in a local station will be grabbed by the bigger stations. We do not want to lose those good people because of uncertainty. For that reason I ask the Minister to take on board this amendment. As Deputy Deenihan pointed out, it is not open-ended, it is for a period of not less than five years where there is a proven track record. That is reasonable. In the case I am supporting, there is a proven track record. It is generally accepted nationally that the local stations are providing a good service and a professionalism that we have come to expect.

The amendments in the names of Deputies Clune and O'Shea are either the same or have largely the same objective as similar amendments that were proposed on Committee Stage. As I said on Committee Stage, while I admire the commitment and the talent of our independent broadcasters I cannot agree to an amendment that appears to grant individual broadcasters life-long licences. I realise that amendment No. 22 in the name of Deputy O'Shea would confine life-long contracts to radio station operators rather than to television station operators. My objection to it remains the same. Accordingly, I must oppose amendments Nos. 14, 22, 23 and 24.

I accept that it is only fair that the Independent Radio and Television Commission or, as it will be known, the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland should have regard to the performance of the holder of a sound broadcasting contract in complying with the terms of the contract taken into account if that contractor applies for a new contract. I accept also that a person who is not successful in an application for a broadcasting contract is entitled to be given the reasons an application has failed. I understand the Independent Radio and Television Commission will do this but I can see some merit in having these principles enshrined in law. This is why I move amendment No. 106. This amendment largely meets the objectives of amendment No. 23 in the name of Deputy O'Shea and amendment No. 107 in the name of Deputy Clune. The requirement of the Independent Radio and Television Com mission to have regard to past performance of an existing sound broadcasting contractor meets some of the objectives of amendment No. 22 and should provide reassurance for the existing operators that their tract record will be considered.

I have listened carefully to this debate. It is heartening to find that Members are almost vying with each other to extol the virtues of their local radio stations. I may as well join in and mention on behalf of Deputy Donal Carey and myself that we certainly appreciate the work done by Clare FM. I am sure he would join in saying there is no political bias in that radio station—

The Minister is straying from the amendment.

What I am trying to say – and I ask for a little latitude – is that we are expounding the virtues of Clare FM. I join every single Member in underlying the tremendous value that local radio has been to the local communities. Deputy Barrett suggested that local radio formed community spirit. Whatever about forming the community spirit, local radios certainly mirror that community spirit. The strength of local radio is that it is local and is not interested in the stories covered elsewhere on a national basis. Local radio is interested in the stories that the people in the local communities want to hear and that is the reason they have been such a success.

I am pleased to be a member of the party which introduced legislation to set up local radio. It was not the universally held view during those debates that local radio would be a success. Not everyone shared the view that it was a welcome proposal. Having seen how local radio works everyone is now ready to support that concept.

Having listened carefully, particularly, to Deputies Barrett and Browne, I believe they were supporting my amendment, although they may not have meant to do that. Deputy Barrett said he was rather envious of those who lived in local areas outside of Dublin because they had an excellent radio station to listen to. I do not think he felt the same about what is available on the airwaves in the Dublin area. He was putting forward a convincing argument against automatic renewal.

I also agree with the views expressed by Deputy Browne who said he did not believe in an automatic renewal for all because, obviously, there were some who gave an even better service than others and there was an element of competition. I have expressed the view both on Committee Stage and on Report Stage that a guarantee cannot be given to existing licence holders. There can be no question of an automatic licence or a roll-over licence. I wanted to ensure that cognisance would be taken by the Independent Radio and Television Commission of the work done and the contracts complied with under the licensing system. That has been provided for in my amendment. The other element of my amend ment provides that reasons be given for failure of an application. The Independent Radio and Television Commission should comply with that requirement. Perhaps it was going to do it. It is important that that principle be enshrined in law. This is something that IBI sought.

To recap, while I cannot accept amendments Nos. 14, 22, 23, 24 and 107, I will move amendment No. 106 in due course. However, I feel the views expressed by Members are incorporated in great part in the amendment I have tabled. I have decided, in recognition of the contribution made by existing local radio operators, to ensure that where such an operator applies for a sound broadcasting contract, the Independent Radio and Television Commission will be required to take into account the operator's past performance in adhering to his or her existing licences. In addition, I am ensuring that the Independent Radio and Television Commission will give unsuccessful applicants a reason for that decision.

That is my position on this issue. I made my views known on Committee Stage. I then thought very deeply about the issue and listened to the arguments put forward in the House and elsewhere. I feel that while we cannot give a guarantee or an automatic licence, the approach in my amendment satisfies the general thrust of the principle we have been discussing this evening.

While I do not disagree with any of the contributions of my colleagues, they have not recognised the time limit factor in this debate. If the debate concludes at 6 p.m., several areas of the Bill will not be addressed. These are important areas because they have a high employment content and affect many young people with prospects who were looking forward to hearing the Minister's response.

I welcome amendment No. 106 but it does not meet the aspirations of the people who made the representations. Licence holders have a problem in regard to catchment areas. Some catchment areas have limited population access. Local radio has proved in some areas to be far from the licence to print money that it was supposed to be. The amount of capital investment for renewal impinges greatly on the finances of local stations, which is why they want this continuity. That is not addressed in the amendment. Their track record in this area has been ignored.

There have been great successes, such as in Kerry and CKR, which has a widespread catchment area and can be received in Waterford and Dublin. However, Clare FM, which the Minister praised, has a very limited catchment area. How can the directors of that company be expected to continue their capital investment if they cannot be assured of the continuity of the licence? There is substantial investment there.

That issue has not been addressed, although the Minister went some way towards it by recommending guidelines for the Independent Radio and Television Commission in regard to what it should take into consideration when it is examin ing the suitability of an applicant. However, a person can come in over its head and bid on it. I do not think the Minister has gone far enough. However, I do not want to delay the debate as I have made my point about all the other amendments that have yet to be debated. Nothing is going to happen about it as it is now 5.45 p.m.

The Minister found the Committee Stage debate, during which many points were made to her, very useful. She complied with much of the sentiment expressed and accepted amendments. She made a reasonable announcement today about the funding for TG4, in regard to which strong appeals were made to her on Committee Stage.

I accept one cannot do everything. However, the way the Bill had to be introduced was wrong. It has been rejigged a number of times. Matters will now go undebated and we still will not have got the legislation right. We will not get to deal with some of the EU or constitutional difficulties in the Bill. This was our final chance to do that but it will not happen.

As the debate is drawing to an end, I want to put on record the fact that we in the Labour Party appreciate that the Minister listened to the Committee Stage debate and, in some instances, met or went a good way towards meeting our concerns.

The Minister has, in amendment No. 106, gone part of the way towards meeting some of our concerns in regard to the renewal of licences, particularly in the second part of the amendment, whereby reasons will have to be given for decisions on applications.

I have a difficulty, however, with the first part of the amendment, where it states "the Commission shall have regard to the extent to which the applicant complied with any sound broadcasting contract or contracts". My reading of that, as a layman, is that the words "shall have regard to" do not go very far. It means, effectively, that it will be taken into consideration but there is no measure of the extent of that. However, I grant that it is progressive.

The Minister may be able to give further enlightenment as to whether this formula reaches any further than I have outlined. It seems aspirational to say the commission "shall have regard to" it but does not have any mandatory effect in relation to the performance of the particular applicant in regard to a contract or contracts which that person may have previously held. While I recognise progress has been made, I am not convinced by what the Minister is proposing in the first part of her amendment.

While I acknowledge the Minister has in her amendment No. 106 met some of the concerns of the independent broadcasters, there is no guarantee that their licences will be renewed. These licences will be advertised and, as Deputy Carey said, any person will be able to bid for them. That is creating a level of uncer tainty and is not good for the future of local radio. I thank all my colleagues who supported this amendment. They have given us a very strong flavour of the value of local radio.

The aim of my amendment is not to develop a situation whereby life long licences would be available. The amendment proposes that the licence should be renewed "for a period of not less than five years if the licence holder has complied with the requirements of the licence". This situation has been likened to that of pub licences, which are renewed provided the track record of the licence holder is good. That is what we want to have here. If a local radio licence holder has a good track record and has complied with the requirements of the Independent Radio and Television Commission, the licence should be renewed. The current uncertainty precludes them from investing and upgrading equipment. There is also the question of local employment and the valuable community service local radio provides.

I am disappointed the Minister cannot accept the amendment and cannot see that the provision it contains would be very valuable for local radio. It is not anti-competitive, for example there is competition from the national broadcaster.

Amendment No. 106 proposes the insertion of a subsection (5) in section 6 which states:

Where the Commission decides to refuse to award a sound broadcasting contract to an applicant – the Commission shall notify the applicant of the reasons for the decision.

Can the reasons given be rectified? In what position does this put the applicant? Will applicants have to wait for a further period for licences to be issued again before they can re-apply? This is the concern of my local station and I am sure it concerns other Deputies. Will the Minister clarify the position so we can tell our local stations that she has gone as far as she can, advise them why a refusal can arise and what can happen thereafter, including whether the application can be rectified or if the applicant must wait for a further period of time to elapse before making a new application?

Deputy Wall asked about the procedure for informing the applicant if his or her application has not been successful and the reasons therefor. The IBI raised this issue and I understand why it seeks a just approach to outlining why an application would not be successful. At that stage the decision would already have been taken by the Independent Radio and Television Commission and on foot of that the applicant would be contacted and given the reasons the application was unsuccessful.

Deputy Clune said there was no guarantee for these licences. I have pointed out why we cannot have a guarantee concerning a roll-over licence. No guarantee can be given that existing licences would be renewed. My amendment goes some way to ensuring that the Independent Radio and Television Commission would take into account, and have due regard for, the past performance of existing sound broadcasting contractors and to addressing the concerns raised by Members. We have debated this issue at length and I do not propose to repeat what I have said other than to say my amendment is the way forward.

At this stage we should be debating local radio and local and community television. There is a weakness in the Bill in so far as TV3 appears to be the only designated broadcaster to look after community television, certainly on the MMDS system. We are seeking continuity on the radio side, while on the community television side we want to ensure local communities are able to establish a local station without having recourse to existing companies.

I am disappointed the Minister did not recognise the limitations of local radios in their catchment areas. While she has given them some reassurance, she has not gone as far as we would like. No guarantee is provided, and that is the bottom line.

Amendment put and declared lost.

I move amendment No. 15:

In page 15, between lines 12 and 13, to insert the following:

"(3) No person shall sit on the Commission as a Commissioner unless their proposed appointment has been approved by the relevant Oireachtas Committee acting in public session.".

We discussed this on Committee Stage and I strongly support the principle here. I accept the Minister has the right to appoint a commissioner, but the appointment should be put before an Oireachtas committee to enable the members to question the appointment. I do not envisage an invasion of the privacy of the person to be appointed.

Amendment No. 16 in my name deals with the broadcasting commission. At present RTE has an authority, TV3 is answerable to the Independent Radio and Television Commission and when TG4 is established it will also have an authority. My amendment proposes the establishment of an overall authority with responsibility for all broadcasters in the State. Interestingly, the White Paper on broadcasting published in the UK this week contains a similar proposal.

The present situation could give rise to anomalies. For example, the Independent Radio and Television Commission has told TV3 it cannot broadcast on a certain issue, yet RTE can decide to broadcast on it. That is not right. It would be much better to have a body with an overviewing role where the same rules would be applied to all broadcasters.

The amendment was discussed on Committee Stage, but the Minister was unsupportive. However, I am encouraged that a similar proposal has been published this week in the UK White Paper on broadcasting. It makes sense to provide for a level playing pitch, with all concerned adhering to the same rules and guidelines.

The purpose of amendment No. 15 is to give the Select Committee on Heritage and the Irish Language the power to decide on who should be appointed to the Broadcasting Commission of Ireland. Currently, the Government appoints the chairperson and members of the Independent Radio and Television Commission. It is required to ensure a person has experience of, or shown capacity in, a number of areas, such as media and commercial affairs, radio communications, engineering, trade union affairs or social, community, educational or cultural affairs.

These provisions are sufficient. In addition, and as Deputy O'Shea rightly pointed out on Committee Stage, the proposed amendment could serve to put people off serving on the commission. Accordingly, I oppose the amendment.

As it is now 6 o'clock, I am required to put the following question in accordance with an order of the Dáil of this day: "That the amendments set down by the Minister for Arts, Heritage, Gaeltacht and the Islands and not disposed of are hereby made to the Bill, Fourth Stage is hereby completed and the Bill is hereby passed."

Constitutional and EU laws may be breached.

Question put and agreed to.
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