Michael Noonan
Question:1 Mr. Noonan asked the Taoiseach the functions of the communications unit within his Department; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20941/01]
Ceisteanna – Questions. - Information Service.
Ruairí Quinn
Question:2 Mr. Quinn asked the Taoiseach the budget for 2001 for the communications unit within his Department; the number of staff in the unit; its functions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23720/01]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 and 2 together.
The communications unit provides a comprehensive information service to Ministers and their Departments on Government policy initiatives and developments and alerts them to any problems which may arise in relation to their implementation. In this way, Departments are able to provide a better service to the public.
The communications unit works an 18 hour day based on a flexible staff roster of three working shifts. The unit has a staff of seven civil servants, six of whom are on secondment from other Departments. Throughout the day the unit provides Ministers and their Departments with news updates and transcripts ensuring that Departments are kept informed in a fast and efficient manner of any relevant news developments. The expected expenditure for the unit for 2001 is approximately £55,000.
Some of the work being done by this unit is political in nature and it is being done on behalf of Fianna Fáil. The Information Commissioner established that when he refused to reveal information about its activities when we filed an application in 1999. He stated quite clearly that the political exception was being used because this was political work and the information could not be released to the public. I put it to the Taoiseach that this is a disgraceful abuse of taxpayers' money. As in the so-called public information campaigns in which Ministers have taken part, taxpayers' money is being abused to promote the interests of the Fianna Fáil Party.
I have answered this question on several occasions. It is obvious that I will not convince Deputy Noonan of the truth and, therefore, I will not try to do so. The unit has no dealings with the Fianna Fáil press office; it deals only with the press offices of the various Departments. The unit also has no dealings with Government backbenchers and those who work in the unit would probably not know where to find the Fianna Fáil press office.
The Information Commissioner decided that the unit's work is political. The unit is totally funded from taxpayers' money and because its work is political in nature, the unit is serving the political interests of Fianna Fáil Ministers and Ministers of State. This is a gross abuse of taxpayers' money. I ask the Taoiseach, between now and the next general election, to have the grace to stand this unit down, in so far as it is engaged in political activity.
If providing transcripts of what has been said in the public domain and passing these on to public servants, Ministers and Ministers of State is political in nature, it must be accepted as such. The Deputy stated that the work of the unit is Fianna Fáil oriented. If he wishes to visit the unit after Question Time he is welcome to do so. I assure him the unit's work is not political.
Why did the Information Commissioner decide it is political?
When the unit first opened some years ago, a person worked there who was a member of Fianna Fáil staff. The individual in question prepared some documents and presentations which were similar to previous work they had done. They could have been and were classified as being political in nature. However, that was some years ago. At present, the unit is staffed by ordinary civil servants whose work saves the State and the taxpayer a considerable amount of money. If the unit did not exist, we would be obliged to pay top dollar for transcripts to be produced elsewhere. The work done by the unit is extremely useful.
Does the Taoiseach regard the Information Commissioner as an independent arbiter with regard to whether matters pertaining to Government business are either administrative or political in nature? If he accepts that the commissioner is independent, he should accept his conclusion. Do the costs that the Taoiseach listed in his reply include the full cost of the salaries of all those working in the information unit?
I answered the first question when I said that was initially the view of the Information Commissioner. I accepted that at the time, but it no longer applies.
Has the commissioner changed his view?
I am sure his view has changed because questions have been answered since under the Freedom of Information Act, 1997. That was one particular instance.
The Taoiseach should not be ridiculous. He should not mislead the House.
I am not misleading the House. I will not listen to glib throwaway comments across the floor. They are out of order. Let us be clear about this. This section is totally staffed by civil servants. They do the job once handed out around the town at top prices to various communications companies. Excessive prices were charged for tapes.
Deputy Noonan should remember that period, and the Finlay report.
We stopped that nonsense and the cosy relationship between Government services and—
What about the lies that the Taoiseach told?
We stopped that nonsense. Now these matters are handled in an up-front and transparent way. The costs I gave are those of my Department.
May I clarify whether the costs the Taoiseach gave relate to the direct costs on the Vote for his Department? Does the answer that he gave to the House include the full cost of the salaries of the others in the unit who may be included in the Votes for other Departments?
It is £110,000 or £120,000, I am told. Excuse me, that figure relates to the saving.
My question related to the costs. In the reply the Taoiseach gave at the end of March he only gave the cost of staff from his Department.
The Deputy asked me that question, and I answered him. I said that was for my Department.
What about the other staff who were seconded?
The Taoiseach cannot find the information.
Perhaps, the Taoiseach could send it to me.
I have a list of the staff in the Department. I have not got the list of costs available to me.
In the interests of brevity, it can be sent to me. The unit is monitoring statements in the public domain, collating them, copying them and circulating them to the relevant Ministers when problems arise in the implementation of policy. This is now being done in-house rather than being contracted out to external agencies. Is it the Taoiseach's intention that this service will continue through a general election campaign or will the unit, because it is deemed to be political by the Information Commissioner, be stood down once the election is called?
The unit is working for the GIS. It is giving information not only to Ministers and Ministers of State, but to all sections. During an election campaign, people will not—
May I quote what the Taoiseach said?
This is Question Time.
The Deputy should continue.
It is not in order to quote during Question Time.
I will not quote. However, if I were to quote, I would say that the communications unit provides a comprehensive information service for Ministers and their Departments on Government policy and alerts them to any problems which may arise in relation to its implementation. What else does one need during an election campaign, but precisely that service? The unit is political. Will it be used during the course of an election campaign?
If the Ministers are around, then the Departments will get the same information during the election campaign. It would be going to their Departments and the secretaries general anyway. There is no intrigue. The information is in the newspapers and the media. If there is an issue of importance, the press office in a Department is communicated with. This is not rocket science.
It is a resource.
It is a political resource.
I do not believe it will give anyone an insight which will help to win an election.
Despite his ambiguity and refusal to read out what is in his brief, I put it to the Taoiseach that part of the work of this unit is to monitor statements and speeches by Members of the House opposed to the Government and that it is transferring this information to Departments in order that Ministers and their press staff are in a better position to deal with political charges put to them by the Opposition. That is political and the reason the Information Commissioner—
Deputies should confine their remarks to questions.
As per normal procedure in the House, I put it to the Taoiseach that this is a fact and that the reason the Information Commissioner deemed this to be political is it is political and there is no other description of this work other than political. Will the Taoiseach at least have the grace to stand down this unit as we go into, and through, the election campaign?
We are not going into a campaign. The Deputy will have to wait a little longer.
Could the Deputy outline the information included in my brief that I am refusing to give?
The information that I believe to be in the Taoiseach's brief and which he is refusing to give concerns the full cost.
That information is not in my brief.
Civil servants are on secondment from other Departments.
Does the Deputy wish to see the brief? He has made an allegation.
The Taoiseach probably removed the information before he came into the House.
The Deputy made an allegation which he should withdraw.
Order, please.
Deputy Noonan made an allegation.
Pages went missing.
No pages went missing.
Order, please.
What are the full costs of the salaries?
I told Deputy Quinn I would get that information. Deputy Noonan has made an allegation.
This happens every week.
What happens every week?
The Taoiseach and Deputy Noonan should resume their seats.
The Taoiseach should answer the question.
It is not in it.
Deputy Noonan will have to resume his seat while the Chair is on his feet. This is disorderly at any time. The only person entitled to be on his or her feet is the Ceann Comhairle.
Two Deputies are on their feet.
The Deputies should sit down as the Chair is on his feet. That is normal procedure.
So long as that applies to both sides.
I remind Members that this is Question Time, not debating time or time for making statements. It is not the time to make accusations, but to ask questions, please.
In reply to the question, not the allegation, the staff of the communications unit who are on secondment from various Departments are: Tony O'Brien, executive officer, Department of Public Enterprise—
No one asked for names.
Fran Murphy, staff officer, Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform; Patricia Scanlon, staff officer, Department of Finance; Denise Kerley, staff officer, Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment; Ann Gittens, executive officer, Department of the Environment and Local Government; Cathal Peppard, executive officer, Department of Social, Community and Family Affairs, and Cathy Reid, clerical officer, Department of the Taoiseach.
The only figure I have for the costs of the communications unit in the Department of the Taoiseach is for salaries and shift allowances in 1997 which was £16,648.
Is this the figure for 1997?
The figure for 1998 was £58,787. There are other costs totalling £23,134. The figure for 1997 was £63,826 and other costs of £22,786. In 2000 the figure was £33,273 and other costs of £21,606. The figure to date for 2001 is £26,518 and other costs of £21,537.
They are on the bread line. That is below the minimum wage.
I do not have the other costs as the salaries of the staff in the communications unit seconded to the Department of the Taoiseach are paid by their parent Departments which is the norm in the Civil Service.
Why did the Taoiseach not get the figure?
The Department pays a shift allowance amounting to one sixth of salary which is paid on a recruitment basis to the parent Department. I do not have the costs from the other Departments because they are not charges on my Department. I would not normally have those questions. I will accept Deputy Noonan's apology.
The Taoiseach was not asked to name the civil servants involved. We did not request that information and they are entitled to their anonymity. If he is abusing civil servants, that is their problem.
The Deputy asked for the information.
I asked the Taoiseach a specific question about whether part of the civil servants' duties is to monitor the speeches and statements of the Opposition in order that Ministers can be alerted to the political position taken by the Opposition in order that they are able to reply to those statements and speeches. Will he confirm that that is part of their duties? Will he also confirm that it is the reason the Information Commissioner deemed their work to be political?
First, I reject the Deputy's outrageous allegation that I had a figure in my brief, when I did not. He has still not withdrawn that allegation, but I expect him to do so during this series of questions. I read somewhere that he is a decent man. If he is, he will do so. Second, he is wrong because the staff concerned do not monitor the speeches of anybody in opposition or in Government. They take what is in the public domain, whether it be from radio, television or the press, and present a synopsis. If asked by a Department to give a report of an interview with a member of the Government, or anybody else, they can provide the tape, but they do not monitor speeches.
The Taoiseach is very good at ambiguity. He is actually saying that they do not follow us around and listen to our speeches.
The Deputy can be sure of that, neither does anyone else.
That is very good.
That is a very insulting remark from the Minister for Foreign Affairs. He knows what happened to the last Minister for Foreign Affairs.
Order, please.
We know the difficulties the Taoiseach is having when the bruiser from Offaly is brought in to break up Question Time.
Is that right? The Deputy has ruined a fair few in his time and got away with it.
The Minister for Foreign Affairs should be diplomatic. He needs a new image.
The Taoiseach said that while the unit does not monitor Opposition speeches and statements, when published or an interview arises from them, it does monitor them and report to Ministers in order that they can reply. This is a gross abuse of taxpayer's money and it did not happen before. The Taoiseach is using civil servants for political purposes and intends using them right through the election campaign. That is an absolute disgrace.
The Deputy is wrong; it was used before. The GIS used to pay PR companies top dollar for all these things to be brought in from agencies. That is the way it was done.
They paid for tapes of interviews, not monitors.
That is what was done.
Deputy Noonan did not know what was going on in his own Government.
In relevant Departments press officers, since time immemorial, have done exactly the same thing. The unit is not involved in undermining tactics. Several years ago its information officer who had been in the Fianna Fáil press office analysed matters in relation to one document, as had been done previously. That ceased forthwith, however, as it was political information.
Part of the Taoiseach's dirty tricks department.
There is no such person, even now. That is what happened.
Deputy Noonan is a one man dirty tricks department.
Deputy Noonan is wrong on all accounts. He is wrong to say I had the information in the file and that it is a political office. He is also wrong to state that the Information Commissioner would hold the view that anything it is now preparing is not available under the Freedom of Information Act.
Is it in place to get the football results?
When I have been absolutely precise and given everything I have Deputy Noonan has also accused me of ambiguity, which is a totally unfair charge. I have given him several chances to apologise, but he will not do so.
Will the Taoiseach confirm that this communications unit is the one devised and directed by a leading Fianna Fáil activist – his friend, my friend and everybody's friend – Mr. Marty Whelan? Is he saying that its purpose has changed from what it was then? Will he confirm, as a matter of fact, that information furnished by the unit is the same information used by the Fianna Fáil press officer to harry, day in and day out, editors and producers in RTE, in particular? Is he aware that some Members of the House, including me, have got the files from RTE under the Freedom of Information Act and that the information is coming from the communications unit and is being used, as the information commissioner said, for blatantly political purposes?
No. The Fianna Fáil press officer has his own system of monitoring what is on the news and the airwaves.
It is a dirty one.
It is not. The individuals in that office are hard working people, as are all our press officers. We probably play things straighter than anyone else in this House.
Hear, hear.
Ireland's first diplomat should stay quiet.