Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Mar 2003

Vol. 562 No. 6

Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Act 1999 (Designation of Major Events) Order 2003: Motion.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. Browne)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves the following order in draft:

Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Act 1999 (Designation of Major Events) Order 2003 a copy of which was laid before Dáil Éireann on 28th February, 2003.

By agreement, the debate on this motion will conclude at 3.30 p.m.

The EU television without frontiers directive, Directive 97/3 6 EC, recognises that member states should have the right to take measures to ensure that events that are regarded by member states as "events of major importance to society" should continue to be available on free television services. Under the directive it is open to each individual member state to decide whether it wishes to designate events as events of major importance to society.

The Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Act 1999 incorporated into Irish law the provisions of Article 3a of the television without frontiers directive. That Act provides that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources may designate certain events as events of major importance to society for which the right of a qualifying broadcaster to provide coverage on free television services should be provided in the public interest.

The 1999 Act provides that the Minister must consult with the Minister for Arts, Sports and Tourism, event organisers, broadcasters within the State and members of the public before designating events. The Act also requires that the Minister must lay a draft of the order designating the events before the Houses of the Oireachtas for approval.

The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has conducted an extensive consultation process and a report on that process is available on my Department's website. The report details the process, the decisions taken and the rationale for those decisions. Key features of the consultation process included an online forum on my Department's website and a public meeting hosted by the Minister in Dublin Castle in August 2002.

As required, The Minister has also sought the opinion of the EU Contact Committee established under Article 3a of the directive. That committee considered the measures proposed to be taken by Ireland at its meeting on 31 January and gave the opinion that it had no objection to the measures proposed. The only remaining step is for the draft order designating the events to be approved by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

I will now turn to the actual events to be designated. While acting to protect the public interest, I also had to take account of the interests of event organisers and of broadcasters and the list of events to be designated reflects a balanced and proportionate approach. The list covers major international events such as the Olympics, the FIFA World Cup and the European Football Championships. The EU directive specifically refers to these events as examples of the type of events where member states should be free to act. In soccer the list also includes all of Ireland's qualifying games in the World Cup and European Championships. In Gaelic games the list includes the All-Ireland senior finals in football and hurling. Some people argued for the inclusion of other games such as provincial finals and the decision taken was based on the fact that the All-Ireland finals are national events.

There is a distinction to be drawn between events that are very popular and events that are of major importance to society and this distinction is very relevant in the case of Gaelic games. For example, Waterford's win in the Munster Hurling Championship last year was a significant event but in its importance to the country as a whole it would not been as significant as Armagh's win in the last year's football final or the breakthrough of Clare in 1995.

Mr. Coveney

It depends on where you are from. What if one was from Waterford?

Mr. Browne

It certainly would have ranked behind Wexford's great All-Ireland win in 1996.

In horse racing the Irish Derby and Irish Grand National are included as the two premier events on the racing calendar. Interest in these races extends well beyond those who closely follow racing. The Nations Cup at the Dublin Horse Show is included at the request of the organisers of the event.

All of these events are listed on a live basis. Ireland's games in the Rugby World Cup are listed on a live basis and in the Six Nations Championships on a deferred basis. The reasons for the Minister's decision not to list the games in the Six Nations Championships on a live basis are set out in detail in the report which is on the Department's website.

Rugby is a major sport in Ireland but, unlike Gaelic games and soccer, it is not played in every town and village in the country. It is popular but does not have as broad a popular appeal as Gaelic games or soccer. While attracting significant media attention, rugby internationals do not attract as high a level of media attention or television audiences as soccer internationals or all-Ireland finals.

Rugby at international level is not as mature or as stable as international soccer. Professional rugby is a recent phenomenon and while Irish rugby has made great strides in the years of professionalism, the future development of the game at international level is still under debate. The IRFU argues that in this environment anything that reduces the competitiveness of Irish international rugby could have potentially disastrous consequences for rugby in Ireland.

Broadcasting rights for the Six Nations Championships games are sold by all the competing nations as a pool. The proceeds from the pool are then shared. A new three year deal with free television broadcasters was agreed last year and RTE has bought the rights to all games in the championships for this three year period. Because of the way the pool works, the IRFU will get out of it several times what RTE paid in. If the games were designated on a live basis, the IRFU might be forced out of the pool and this could have a disproportionate impact on it.

The list was arrived at after all interested parties had the chance to submit their views and it protects the public interest. It also attempts to balance the interests of event organisers and broadcasters. The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has indicated that he will review the list in two years' time.

Mr. Coveney

I welcome the fact that we have finally arrived at the designation of a list. Policy makers, those in government in particular, have a responsibility to the public to ensure free-to-air television coverage is provided for key sporting events of national significance and importance. We are attempting to do that today. It would, however, be remiss of me not to say that it should have been done a long time ago. The Government could have done this in 2000. Because of the incompetence of the Government, particularly the previous Minister, in this area, we had the embarrassing and unacceptable situation of not being able to provide free-to-air coverage of a significant soccer match in the autumn. It is only because of that embarrassment that we have moved to designate sports.

Today is about the events themselves, not the legislation. It was somewhat unfair of the Government to expect to push this through without debate considering the level of national interest in these sporting events. I am glad the Government Chief Whip conceded to the requests made by Deputy Broughan and me to provide time to debate this today.

We have a responsibility to the sporting bodies to ensure they get a fair deal so they can plough money back into their sports and ensure they have the necessary funding. I note that arbitration rulings in this area are not binding but we shall debate that another day.

A third area of responsibility is ensuring a fair deal for the broadcaster. It should be able to afford to pay a reasonable amount to provide free-to-air coverage so no one in the country faces discrimination, as would be the case with the provision of pay-per-view coverage.

I have some concerns about the list. It covers five sporting events, the first being the Olympic Games. How can Irish law enforce conditions on the international Olympics committee to ensure that RTE or TV3 can force the organisers of coverage to provide it on a free-to-air basis? It is an international event, not one run by an Irish sporting organisation.

Contrary to what we see here, and I am sure the Minister of State will agree, events like the Munster hurling final are of interest. There is also concern about camogie. A real effort is being made to promote female participation in sport – it is the centrepiece of the Fine Gael policy document on sport – but we offer no free-to-air guaranteed coverage of all-Ireland camogie finals. A further omission is that key events in the Eircom League calendar will not be guaranteed free-to-air coverage.

I agree with the decision on the Six Nations Championships in rugby. The IRFU works with the Scottish and Welsh to bargain as a unit. It is not, therefore, reasonable or possible to remove that bargaining power.

Mr. Deenihan

In his reply, perhaps the Minister will refer to the contract entered into by the FAI and Sky Television to broadcast Ireland's home European Championships matches live to audiences in the State that was supposed to net the FAI €5.3 million. What is the situation with that arrangement now? Can the FAI claim compensation from the Government? That is what brought us here today and we should clarify the issue.

As a sportsperson, I welcome this legislation. Perhaps we are a nation of spectators rather than participants. More people are watching sport than was the case in the past and there are more experts scattered throughout our hostelries than ever before.

It would be preferable to have greater participation in sport but, for those who are interested in sport, it is very welcome. The more people who are interested in sport as spectators, the better. A healthy interest in sport is a very good antidote to other forms of behaviour.

I wish to refer to Gaelic games in particular. While I welcome the inclusion of the All Ireland senior finals in football and hurling, there are now some very competitive quarter finals under the new "back door" system in Gaelic football and hurling. There are also some very competitive semi-finals as well as provincial finals, which have been mentioned already. I would favour a more inclusive approach in this matter. As Deputy Coveney mentioned, camogie has become a very popular sport. One of the faster growing sports here is ladies football, in which some 70,000 people are now involved throughout the country. It is becoming a very popular sport and a particularly encouraging feature is its popularity in counties which were not traditionally strong Gaelic football counties at senior men's level, such as Waterford and Monaghan. Perhaps the Minister of State will comment further on this matter. I appreciate that he has clarified the position to some extent already as to the reason for the present exclusions from this provision. In the case of northern counties in particular, is there a possibility of the BBC, for example, moving in to secure the rights in relation to those games? I believe there is every chance of that happening and I ask the Minister of State to comment on that.

In relation to rugby, I understand the logic of the position outlined by the Minister of State. The joint Oireachtas committee with responsibility for sport is now in session and meeting a delegation from the Irish Rugby Football Union. Having lost €4 million last year, that organisation will obviously welcome whatever revenue stream it can find.

Mr. Broughan

I wish to share time with Deputy Michael D. Higgins.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mr. Broughan

I welcome the belated Designation of Major Events Order 2003 under the Broadcasting Act 1999. It should be noted that this development originated with my colleague, Deputy Michael D. Higgins, during his term as Minister for Arts and Culture, when he was also President of the European Council of Ministers in that regard. Under his leadership, the Council recognised that major cultural and sporting events should not be treated as commodities but rather on the basis of their intrinsic merits for the citizens of the European Union. That very important principle has been attacked by the Kirch organisation in Germany and by Rupert Murdoch's News International, but the principle was established and should be maintained.

Irish people were outraged last year when we lost the opportunity of viewing a number of major Association Football games involving our international team. Why did the Minister wait three and a half years to move on this matter? Even in this Government, why was this designation not introduced last summer? Could it have anything to do with the fact that the proprietor of News International and leading shareholder in Sky Television, Mr. Rupert Murdoch, and his newspapers were watching the Irish political scene very carefully? In the summer of 2000 when this whole process should have been over and done with, there was an expectation of a possible general election which eventually came a year later. Is it not a fact that the then Minister, Deputy de Valera, was not allowed by the Taoiseach, Deputy Bertie Ahern, to deal with this matter because he wished to appease the great media mogul and magnate, Mr. Rupert Murdoch, whom he described as the world's foremost leader in media? That is the reason we are now discussing this matter, late on a Thursday afternoon, rather than two and a half to three years ago. We bowed the knee to those pressures. Somewhere in the Taoiseach's office, there is a sign from the 1992 general election in Britain which states: “It wos The Sun wot wun it”. The Sun certainly won it for Mrs. Thatcher in 1979 and other election years and I believe there was the determination to ensure that organisation was kept on side.

That shameful and undemocratic background has to be seen in conjunction with the recent RTE Prime Time investigation of the Taoiseach's treatment of the Football Association of Ireland, when he deliberately destroyed its attempt to build a national stadium. He pulled the plug on the FAI by presenting every possible impediment and barrier to destroy its stadium project. In the light of those events, I believe he is unfit to be a Minister, let alone Taoiseach of this country. This devious background displays a disgraceful role of vested interests in our society that would deprive people of the simple pleasure of watching an Irish football team in action at home or away.

The fact that the lists have materialised at long last is welcome. The Irish fans in their green shirts – the best fans in the world, as evidenced in Seoul, Japan, Rome and Germany, where they created an outstandingly positive image of our nation which still reverberates today when one is engaged in business or political matters – should not have been betrayed, as they were, by this Government for disgraceful reasons.

As regards Gaelic football, a distinguished champion has spoken just before me. Deputy Deenihan is one of the greatest footballers who ever strode onto Croke Park. A few years ago, the Dubs and Meath engaged in one of those titanic struggles which packed Croke Park over four successive Saturdays and Sundays. The whole nation is keenly interested in the outcome of such events. It is ironic that a person who claims to be a great supporter of the Dubs has not included such events in the designation list nor, indeed, the Munster and Leinster finals. I can empathise greatly with the Wexford hurling team as my father came from New Ross. In the presence of the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, I pose the question as to whether we will be allowed to see the Wexford team in action.

In relation to rugby football, we are very proud of the great achievements of our provincial teams in recent months and it is good that Connacht will remain on a professional basis. Though rugby has a more limited membership than other sports, it is national in character. The combination of Leinster and Munster has provided a brilliant national team and long may they prosper. Perhaps some events, particularly home internationals, should be available to viewers. I welcome this designation order but wonder why it is so belated.

Mr. M. Higgins

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this designation order and I will confine myself to the principles behind the list of events. As Deputy Broughan has said, I was Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, President of European Council of culture Ministers and President of the European Council of broadcasting Ministers when the television sans frontiers directive was being revised. I wish to pay tribute to Department officials – two in particular – who worked night and day on the directive. They also worked very hard on Protocol 52 of the Treaty of Amsterdam, which should be seen in conjunction with the directive. That protocol, on which I can speak very plainly, was a window of revision on what was seen as a treaty that facilitated the reign of the market. It protected certain rights for public service broadcasters which have not been implemented.

The thrust of the television sans frontiers directive was that sporting and other cultural events were acts of communication and should be considered in terms of communication rights. We also took account of the various rights which existed in external international treaties. With a very definite reason in mind, we were quite consciously seeking to resist the approach whereby events are treated as a commodity.

The European Broadcasting Union, in the case of the citizen's right of access to significant sporting events in the communication context, had always an ability to pay. It never charged a flat fee for coverage of events. The European Broadcasting Union has effectively been brought to its knees by monopolies such as Kirch, which is now thankfully in a form of bankruptcy. I hope that the same fate is in store for some of the others. It is interesting to note, for example, that the amount of tax Mr. Rupert Murdoch's international news media company paid in the ten years between 1980 and 1990 was zero because of the way it located its finances. These destroyed the European Broadcasting Union. We were dealing with an attempt at monopoly which would stop people watching significant events.

I can answer a question posed to the Minister. The European Broadcasting Union has been out-bid for the next Olympic Games and the next World Cup. These sporting events are now within the realms of monopoly.

Dealing with this, there were certain legislative responses which could have followed our work on television sans frontiers. I tried one of them, which was a limit on cross-ownership and on a monopoly of broadcasting. The second was to implement the directive. It could have been implemented, not from 2000 but from its passing in 1997. What was needed was that one would establish the list, submit it to the Commission for approval and then legislate for it. I accept that 2000 is the correct year in this sense because that would have allowed an adequate period for consultation.

However, here is the confusion which has now arisen. As a person who was the author of the directive in part, there was never any suggestion of conferring a property right in a sporting event that was being enjoyed by citizens. That right does not exist. The delay in establishing the list, coming forward with the legislation and going to the Commission have created confusion as to whether there was a right there to be sold. This will arise, after arbitration, in discussions as to whether there is any right there retrospectively. I believe that Sky Television, for example, has no basis for making an offer and that its position is an illegal one.

There are proposals before the European Parliament to have a form of international regulation of broadcasting. I look forward not only to the day when Sky Television will pay taxes in some country but to when its monopoly grip on the media across several different forms, print, television and radio, will be broken. We have only to see its disgraceful comments about the war at present to know what is in store for us if its monopoly deepens.

Mr. Gormley

I wish to share time with Deputy Crowe. Like many Deputies, I grew up in one channel land when RTE began at around 5 o'clock with the words, "RTE anseo agaibh". There were many advantages and disadvantages to this. The advantages were that all of Ireland seemed to be focused on these programmes, on Micheál Ó Hehir and Gay Byrne, and there was a national discourse so that in a sense it was nation building. It moulded the nation. The topic of conversation would be the match or what happened on "The Late, Late Show", or whatever.

Since that time there has been a proliferation of channels. People who lived in Dublin always received a number of channels. With digital television, this proliferation goes even further. Often I get the impression that it is a little like the old Bruce Springsteen song, "57 Channels (And Nothin' On)".

Sport has now become almost an obsession and we cater for those needs. At times I worry that there are people who can scarcely afford to put bread on the table and yet have a satellite dish. Sky Sports is a must. It has become a total obsession. In some cases I tend to agree with Noam Chomsky when he said that it is a distraction and it is now like the bread and circuses of old. We need to be careful. One could probably get so many people who can name every sports star but who would not know anything about what is going on in this House. We need to get the balance right.

I agree with those who said that there is now a real danger of monopolies occurring and this is precisely what Mr. Murdoch wants. We must have a clear division between the public and private sphere. The problem is that the private sphere is dominating completely. It is about time we tried to do something about it. I congratulate Deputy Michael D. Higgins for his work in this area.

There are notable omissions in this list. We all have our favourite sports. I am not a great man for the horses, but from what I see rugby stands out. The Six Nations and Heineken Cup matches attract huge audiences. There is great support for these games. One need only look at the support for the Munster team and the Leinster team getting a full house in Lansdowne Road. It behoves the Minister to look at those sports and to include them on the list. I hope he will do so at a future date. I welcome the introduction of this list because in the past huge sporting events were not seen. That was wrong. We must enhance the public broadcasting sphere.

Mr. Crowe

I wish to share time with Deputy Finian McGrath. I welcome the motion. During the general election we called for this measure and it is always nice to see something you campaigned for come to pass. I share the views of Deputies who spoke earlier.

I am concerned about some the games that have been left off the list such as the all-Ireland semi-finals. Deputy Broughan spoke of the support for the Dublin team. We saw the huge turnout for the Dublin-Armagh match. There were many people who could not get tickets for that match and watched it on television. It would have been terrible if the supporters, who did not have a ticket, had not be able to watch that match. It was a game which people all over Ireland, and Irish people all over the world, wanted to watch.

People felt let down by politicians once again, and they were let down. The reality is politicians failed to act. We are waiting a number of years for this draft proposal to come forward, and it is welcome.

Deputy Broughan spoke about the World Cup. Most of us, looking back over the years, would say that the World Cup provided some of our most enjoyable times. The problem with the Government's proposal is that while with pay per view you can go along to the local pub and watch the game, enjoyment of the game would be synonymous with the local pub. Many people complained about the effect this would have on children and said it was not necessary to go to the pub to enjoy oneself. As others have said, it is not only about watching but about involvement – you should be able to follow your heroes and Ireland has had many of them on the sporting fields and in athletics.

In soccer, Ireland's supporters are mostly working people. Many of them are still paying for their trips to the World Cup and the European Cup qualifiers. With pay per view, people were forced to pay these multi-national broadcasting companies and the reality is that the Government did not gave a damn about those supporters.

The supporters are characterised all over the world as people who know how to enjoy themselves and of whom the country as a whole should be proud, and clearly that is the case. People talk about our supporters and part of the upturn in tourism from Europe and further afield is as a result of Irish supporters travelling to matches making a good impression. However, the supporters were let down by politicians.

I am glad the list is being put forward, but there are areas the Minister should investigate. Clearly, the all-Ireland finals need to be included. There have also been instances of discrimination against women in the Irish Open Golf Championship, and there is no mention of this. Perhaps the Minister will address some of these issues.

Mr. F. McGrath

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity of speaking on this important motion. I will be supporting the motion and I know that all followers of sport and supporters of good quality public broadcasting should form a team to take on vested interests for the public good. We must be strong in defending the rights of our people to watch all games and sports, particularly national games and international events. Treasures such as these must be protected.

The Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Act 1999 (Designation of Major Events) Order 2003 is urgently required at this time in our broadcasting history. It is also needed to protect the interests of the people who line the pitches, put up the nets, train our young people and bring our young people with disabilities to the gym and the swimming pool and, above all, the massive community and voluntary effort that goes into our sports. I have a particular interest in GAA football, international soccer and the Special Olympics. We should not forget the massive efforts, the blood, sweat and tears that go into sports. We should always thank and commend those excellent people for their massive contribution to society. This debate is part of the wider debate on voluntary work in the community and the potential to develop a healthier society.

Sadly, at the moment there are people in our sporting world that do not respect the jersey and seem to have lost all sense of priority and commitment to our country. Greed and selfishness is creeping in. I call this "Keaneism", after a top sportsman who put his club before his country. I know it is not politically correct to criticise Roy Keane, but the bottom line is that he let his country down twice in its hour of need. We should not be ashamed to say that. Let us remember the thousands of young people who would give their right arms to put on the green jersey. Keane let us down and it is a bad example to our young people. I wish people would stop harping on about this and instead remember the Robbie Keanes and the Damien Duffs of this world and use them as a good example for our youth. We should also get out there and support Brian Kerr and people like Gerry Smith, a neighbour of mine from Griffith Avenue, the new manager of our under-20s team. These are the people I want to see on television, directing and developing our youth. They have a passion for the game. This motion should be dedicated to them.

All-Ireland finals should not be taken from the people. They should always be part of our national broadcasting service because they are part of our heritage and culture. All-Ireland day is a great national occasion and always sends a positive burst of energy through the city of Dublin and the whole country. I commend RTE for its excellent coverage of sports throughout the years. We may at times be critical of RTE, as I have, but we always need good quality public broadcasting. I agree with Deputy Broughan's remarks earlier about Mr. Murdoch and his friends. Sky has acted in a negative manner in relation to sports.

We are here today to amend the Broadcasting (Major Events Television Coverage) Act 1999. The main reason I am supporting this is to ensure that a substantial proportion of the population is not deprived of the opportunity of continuing to watch designated events on free television services. I welcome the fact that this Bill will not have significant financial or staffing implications. As a person who has been a member of Cumann na mBunscoil, which trains under-13 children in primary schools, for more than 20 years, I want to be the voice for the people on the front line of sports. I have managed and trained under-13 teams for years and I have had the honour of reaching two finals in Croke Park. I will never forget those two days – the buzz around the school, the parents and children getting ready for the final and the look on the faces of our panel of 25 children as they ran onto the pitch in Croke Park. It was a burst of positive energy and those lads will never forget those days. This is the real world of sport. It makes a positive contribution to society and this is why we should all support this Bill.

Minister of State at the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources (Mr. Browne)

I thank the Deputies for their contributions. I have listened with interest to the varying views on different sports and I echo many of those sentiments when speaking of many sporting institutions. I do not, however, agree with Deputy Broughan's opinion that the Minister has caused the delay. When the Minister entered office eight months ago he published a draft list of events and recommenced the public consultation process. As Minister of State, I do not hold responsibility for what has happened in the past. The current Minister acted very promptly.

Mr. Broughan

What about the Minister, Deputy de Valera?

Mr. Coveney

What is the reason for the delay?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister, without interruption.

Mr. Browne

He acted quickly to ensure that something was done.

Mr. Broughan

The former Minister was demoted.

Mr. Browne

The Minister personally met the GAA, the FAI and the IRFU a number of times and entered public consultations, and he should be commended for that. The interest in this issue augurs well for the future. The Minister has published a Bill, which commenced in the Seanad yesterday and will be coming to this House shortly. This will present another opportunity for the Deputies to debate fully the implications of the decisions he is taking.

The deal between the FAI and Sky was mentioned. This covers all future qualifying games in the European and World Cup tournaments. The Bill to be considered by the House shortly will allow the High Court to alter an existing contract such as this and provides that the High Court should decide who should be paid what sums if this happens. I recognise the role of Deputy Michael D. Higgins in drawing up the directive. I share some of his opinions about Sky, which rides roughshod not only over this country but over other EU countries. Perhaps the EU should deal with this at a higher level.

Deputy Coveney mentioned the summer Olympics. Because of the directive, all EU member states have legislation protecting the rights of other member states. For example, if Sky buys the rights to the Olympics, which is on our list, the regulator in the UK will not allow Sky to show a game without first selling it on to RTE and TV3. He also mentioned camogie.

Mr. Coveney

It was just an example.

Mr. Browne

We all recognise the importance of the Munster final—

Mr. Broughan

And the Leinster final.

Mr. Browne

—and indeed the Leinster final and all GAA games. It is all about making choices and ensuring balance. Deputy Deenihan raised the same issues in relation to qualifying games in the GAA and the all-Ireland semi-finals. All these games are important in their own way, but the Minister had to make a balanced political judgment. We should bear in mind that the GAA has stated on a regular basis that it does not intend to sell to the paid television platform and we must take it at its word. I also recently read an interesting article by the president of the GAA which stated that it was considering not televising some of the qualifying games because it was interfering with the club games and because attendances were down throughout the country. It was down to the Minister to make a balanced judgment about discussions with the GAA.

The Minister has investigated extending the list, taking into account such sports as ladies' football and camogie. People feel that different sports are important – a constituent wrote me a letter saying that horseshoe throwing should be included. Every group or organisation felt it should be listed, but in the end the Minister had to be balanced and respect the rights of the sporting organisations. Deputy Coveney pointed out when talking about rugby that it is important that we listen to what the organisations have to say. The Minister will be reviewing his decisions in two years and he will then consider adding or deleting events.

The fact that it will be reviewed in two years' time is important. I will communicate Deputies' ideas and suggestions to the Minister and ask him to take some of them on board.

Question put and agreed to.