Vol. 563 No. 1
135 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Transport the progress made to date by the implementation group on the restructuring of CIE; the membership of the group; if it includes representatives of the company or the management; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7100/03]
143 Mr. Costello asked the Minister for Transport the progress made to date with regard to the implementation of the proposals contained in his statement to the public transport forum on 7 November 2002; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7104/03]
154 Mr. Broughan asked the Minister for Transport if he has received proposals from the trade unions on the restructuring proposals in regard to his proposal to break up the CIE Group and to abolish the CIE holding company; if he plans further meetings with the trade unions; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [7099/03]
I propose to take Questions Nos. 135, 143 and 154 together.
I have been engaged in ongoing dialogue with the various stake holders in relation to my proposals since I made a statement to the Public Transport Partnership Forum on 7 November 2002. I have met the boards of CIE and its three operating subsidiaries and I have had a series of discussions with the trade unions. I intend to continue that dialogue, with the objective of seeking an agreed approach to the reform programme based on the principles set out in my November statement. I have also indicated that I intend that the detailed preparatory work on implementation will proceed in parallel.
The initial meeting of the restructuring implementation group, which has been established to oversee the process of restructuring CIE as three independent companies, was held on 20 February 2003. The group consists of representatives of the CIE holding company, the three operating companies – Bus Átha Cliath, Bus Éireann and Iarnród Éireann – my Department and the Department of Finance. I invited the trade unions to submit a short paper to the implementation group, identifying their principal concerns about the restructuring of CIE, but they have not yet made a submission. As part of the ongoing dia logue with stake holders, it was agreed at a meeting with the CIE trade unions on 4 February that there would be bilateral discussions between my Department and the trade unions to explore the reform of the bus market in the greater Dublin area. Three meetings have taken place since that date and the objective is to conclude these discussions by the end of March. My officials have met the management of Dublin Bus in this regard twice and I did so on one occasion.
What time scale has the Minister set for the implementation group? What does the Minister think of the CIE holding company? Does he accept that there will be a need for a holding company of sorts, given the common work done by the three companies at present? I presume the Minister accepts that there will be major additional costs if payrolls and pensions are handled separately by each of the constituent companies. Does the Minister accept that a type of holding company will still be needed? In the context of the plans that have been outlined by the Minister, what are his proposals for the CIE Tours group?
I will ask the implementation group for a progress report in the next month or two. I have not changed my opinion of the holding company since we last discussed it – I intend to dissolve it completely and to establish the three companies on an independent basis as full State companies. I still intend to open 25% of the Dublin bus market next year. I do not accept that there is a need for a holding company, as the three companies are well able to run their own businesses and to operate their own pensions and properties. There is a good future for the three companies in a competitive environment. I have asked the unions to work with me and to accept that opening the Dublin bus market is a legitimate policy. We should not talk about whether the market is to be opened, but about how it is to be done. I am keen to open the market early next year. I have no specific proposals for CIE Tours. The future of companies owned by the holding company will arise when the three companies have been established independently. The future of CIE Tours, which is a very successful company, will be considered at that point.
Does the Minister agree that integrated ticketing needs to be introduced in the various components of CIE? Does he have any plans for the introduction and operation of such a system if CIE is broken up? If so, what kind of time scale does he envisage? Does he agree that such a measure should have been introduced long before now?
Hear, hear.
Integrated ticketing is taking place to a limited extent at present, ahead of the breaking up of CIE, so that process is not an issue. The non-existence of a holding company will not affect integrated ticketing. It is planned that companies other than CIE will operate as well. Luas will be run by a French company and an increasingly large number of private bus services are in operation. I am determined that the bus market in Dublin and elsewhere will open to the private sector in 2004. The question of integrated ticketing will need to be addressed by public and private sector companies and not just within the CIE group. Deputies are aware that there are two types of integrated ticketing – the highly technical model, which will take another two years to put in place, and the shorter and sharper version, which does not need as much technology. I have asked my officials to examine the latter type and to bring forward proposals in relation to it. An enormous amount of technology may have to be installed in bus and train stations.
Will the Minister outline the estimated cost of the proposed break-up of the CIE group? Does he intend to meet representatives of Bus Éireann, including management and trade unions which have expressed grave concerns about the proposals, to discuss competition in the bus market outside the greater Dublin area?
I cannot outline the cost of the break-up. It could be argued that the removal of the holding company will save money; it does not necessarily have to cost money.
What about the existing debts?
They will have to be re-allocated to the companies on a rational basis. I do not think additional costs will arise from the closure of the holding company.
What about the costs associated with the duplication of salaries and pensions?
I do not envisage additional costs, apart from the cost of making it happen, which should not be that great. The three companies should be able to operate without the need for a holding company. The holding company is not saving them money. It has done its job and it is now time for the three companies to compete with each other and to run their own affairs.
I have already met the board of Bus Éireann, I met the trade unions regarding bus transport outside Dublin, and I will meet the management. We have regular meetings with unions and management on all these issues. I am keen to engage in discussions but am also determined to make progress. If the Deputy and other Deputies think our policies are not correct, they are fully entitled to criticise them. I am interested to hear their views on opening up the market in Dublin. I am not sure if they are for it or against it.
Would the Minister take our views into account?
Given that the Minister is in Government and benefits from the privileges associated with that, will he indicate clearly when his policy of introducing competition will come into effect? When does he expect all bus routes to be open to competition? He has a majority in the Dáil to make this happen so he does not have to worry about the Opposition for the moment. Will the policy come into effect within one, two or three years, and does anybody have a veto?
Is it not the case that £1 million was received by the Government from the EU during the reign of the Minister's predecessor for the purpose of integrated ticketing? Where has that money gone and why is the Government so slow to introduce integrated ticketing? Does the Minister have any lessons to learn from the failure to introduce it so far, despite the fact that it has been stated Government policy for the past five years? This is an example of the failure of public administration.
Does the Minister accept that deregulation of the bus market outside the Dublin area has led to chaos in many areas where private bus operators are arriving three or four minutes before the scheduled Bus Éireann buses? I recently brought to his attention the case in Cavan where Bus Éireann was told to cease running a very successful service to Dublin, which ran at 6 and 7 o'clock in the morning. It was told to stop because a private operator had been licensed on the route and was running a bus at 6.30 a.m. that did not suit anybody. There has been a deterioration in the service and competition did not benefit commuters. Does the Minister accept that this is unsatisfactory? What are his proposals for regulation of the market?
Deputy John Bruton should note that one does not need a majority to have a policy. One can have one with two or three Deputies.
The Minister should worry about his policy.
The Minister without interruption.
One can have a policy with two or three Deputies. I renew my invitation to the Deputies to let me know where they stand on the issues.
The Minister would not give me an invitation to go on the Luas.
I envisage that 25% of the Dublin market will be open to competitive tender on a franchising basis managed by a regulator. I have not laid out my proposals beyond 2004 but I want to start doing so.
Why not?
I am realistic in that I want to have agreement on my proposals to date. I will gladly revisit the subject with Deputy John Bruton next year. He knows how difficult it is to bring into effect part A of the proposals.
Deputy John Bruton asked if anybody has a veto. As far as I am concerned, nobody does. I will bring the relevant legislation to the House and I look forward to Deputies' support in the interest of taxpayers and the travelling public.
I am as disappointed as the Deputy regarding integrated ticketing. The Railway Procurement Agency is charged with the job of bringing forward the scheme and I am trying to ensure that this is done as quickly as possible.
I do not have time to discuss the rights and wrongs of deregulation. The case Deputy Shortall mentioned is worth studying. There are other facts to be considered as well. There are no innocent parties in the case in question. Both the private and public sectors know well when to add extra buses at the expense of the other. It is not as simple as the Deputy thinks.
What about regulation?
Written Answers follow Adjournment Debate.
