It is proposed to take No. 6, the National Economic and Social Development Office Bill 2002 – Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; No. 19, the Digital Hub Development Agency Bill 2002 [Seanad] – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; No. 2, Protection of the Environment Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Second Stage. Private Members' Business shall be No. 32, motion re Northern Ireland (resumed) to conclude at 8.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
There are no proposals to put to the House on the Order of Business.
The health services are in a shambles. Will the Taoiseach inform us why we are having leaks of reports without having evidence of them—
Sorry, Deputy, that does not arise on the Order of Business.
It does, a Cheann Comhairle, because the prospectus report, the Brennan report, the Hanley report, the report on accident and emergency and the report on radiography—
We cannot discuss the content of the reports, Deputy.
These are all tied up with the Vote in respect of health services. We were told two years ago that the national health strategy would deal with all these matters for the next ten years.
Sorry, Deputy, we are on the Order of Business now.
I ask the Taoiseach and the Minister for Health and Children—
Your question is more appropriate to Leaders' Questions.
It is on the Order of Business.
Can the Members of this House, elected to represent the people, have copies of these reports and not have them given to every journalist around this city to be talked about in every forum but this one. Will the Taoiseach ensure that copies of these reports are laid in the Oireachtas Library?
That is not on the Order of Business.
Sorry, Minister for Defence.
That is not a matter for the Order of Business.
A Deputy
He is defending the health services.
(Interruptions).
The Deputy will not be able to do anything about it.
He is the man who had to get 2,000 nuclear and biological suits, yet he can only give the army 50% of them.
There will be some battle there.
I ask the Minister for Defence to desist from interrupting.
The Minister should mind his own brief.
Deputy Kenny, you have made your point.
Tell us about the jets that are to be bought?
I did not buy anything for the Army. Is that what the Deputy wants. Is that the kind of country the Deputy wants.
I call Deputy Rabbitte.
Can copies of these reports be laid before the Oireachtas Library?
It is a valid question, a Cheann Comhairle.
As soon as the Government agrees to publish them.
(Interruptions).
Everybody else has them, a Cheann Comhairle. On a point of order—
I call Deputy Rabbitte. Deputy Durkan there is no point of order to be dealt with.
I do not want to be disorderly. I wish to raise a point of order, a Cheann Comhairle, if you will bear with me for just a moment.
All right.
The leader of Fine Gael, Deputy Kenny, asked a question and the Taoiseach's reply was that the reports would be published as soon as they were available after the Government had considered them. There is clear evidence that these reports are now in the public arena—
That is not a point of order. I call Deputy Rabbitte.
—and the Taoiseach is refusing to give them to the Opposition.
Government backbenchers have them.
I call Deputy Rabbitte. I am moving on to the next business if Deputy Durkan wants to interrupt the proceedings of the House. I call Deputy Rabbitte.
May I ask the Taoiseach why these reports are in the hands of a number of different journalists while no Member of this House has been given a copy? It seems that the last place the Minister will take an initiative is in this House.
That question, Deputy, has already been ruled out of order.
Sir, with respect, it ought to be a question for you, because the diminution of status of this House is being facilitated every day. The Minister has deliberately waited until the House rises next week to publish these documents.
The Deputy has made his point.
Meanwhile, he has leaked them.
That is not right.
Will the Taoiseach furnish to Members of the House copies of these reports today? If they have been photocopied for members of the press they can be photocopied for us.
The Deputy has made his point.
They are in RTE.
We want the answer.
The last time I tried to answer I was shouted down. These reports are only now before Government and they will be published as soon as the Government has discussed and dealt with them. They will not be published next week.
They are before "Prime Time".
Let us have them.
The media has them.
Allow the Taoiseach to continue.
The Government is discussing the reports. A number of people were involved in the discussions of these reports—
Do they work in RTE?
It was debated on the "Prime Time" programme last night.
The Taoiseach, without interruption, please.
As soon as the Government has dealt with the reports, they will be published.
And the House has safely risen.
They will not be published next week.
I call Deputy Sargent.
Deputy Kenny rose.
Sorry, Deputy Kenny, we cannot have a debate on this.
This will take just 30 seconds. The Taoiseach should investigate why these reports are commented on publicly by persons in the public domain.
Sorry, Deputy, that does not arise on the Order of Business.
Deputies
It does arise.
They are in the public domain.
We are all being asked questions about the health service and we do not have copies of these reports.
The Taoiseach has dealt with the issue.
No, he did not.
I listened to a debate on television last night about this report.
I call Deputy Sargent.
I have a question for you, a Cheann Comhairle.
There is a serious problem. I wish to raise a point of order. I am sorry that I have to persist. There are obviously serious and selective leaks—
I am sorry, Deputy, that does not arise on the Order of Business.
It does arise because it refers to the way the House does its business.
Sorry, it does not arise on the Order of Business.
A Cheann Comhairle—
Deputy Sargent has been called.
A Cheann Comhairle, I am sorry but this will have to be dealt with once and for all.
Sorry, Deputy. This could have been the subject of Leader's Questions this morning.
A Cheann Comhairle, we will be forced into a situation where we will have to withdraw all co-operation from the Government—
I call Deputy Sargent.
—unless this question is cleared and dealt with now.
Deputies Kenny and Rabbitte asked the question and the Taoiseach answered it. We cannot have a debate on it.
He did not.
No, he did not.
I call Deputy Sargent.
I want to put the question once again.
The Chair is not responsible for the reply.
How does it come about that there are inspired leaks throughout—
Sorry, Deputy, that is not an appropriate question.
I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, but if you do not—
I call Deputy Sargent.
I have a question for you, a Cheann Comhairle.
For the last time, a Cheann Comhairle, it is quite clear that the information referred to is already in the public arena and the Taoiseach has informed the House—
I am sorry, Deputy—
—that it will be released to the Dáil when the Government has discussed it. Why is the information already in the public arena? Will the Taoiseach answer that question.
The Minister for Transport is right, it has expired.
The Government is discussing three reports. We have two of them but do not have the third one. Nobody else has it either because it is not completed. There might be a draft somewhere—
Which one is that?
What report is that?
Is it the Brennan report?
A Deputy
Did RTE see it?
Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.
No, the Hanley report. We have the prospectus report and the Brennan report. All three of them are being discussed. As soon as we have the three of them and as soon as we are in a position to do so we will publish them. I cannot be responsible for the fact that an enormous number of people are involved in the preparation of these reports. As soon as they are dealt with by the Government, I assure the House, particularly Deputy Durkan, that the reports will be published.
A Cheann Comhairle, I have a question for you.
On a point of order—
I hope it is a point of order, Deputy McManus.
—you have a responsibility to this House, a Cheann Comhairle, to ensure that the work we do is carried on in a democratic and open fashion. It is clear that the Government is withholding reports—
Sorry, Deputy, the Taoiseach has answered the question.
—that have been released to the media.
I have called Deputy Sargent. That is not a point of order.
I have a question for you first, a Cheann Comhairle.
I am sorry, Deputy McManus, I ask you to resume your seat. I am calling Deputy Sargent.
I am asking a question too. The Dáil will not be sitting next week. I am asking you, a Cheann Comhairle, to protect the interests of this House and to ensure that there is a proper debate.
The Chair will do its duty according to Standing Orders. I call Deputy Sargent.
On the Order of Business—
This information is now in the public arena but the Tánaiste is withholding information for which the public paid.
The Taoiseach has answered the question, Deputy McManus, and we cannot have a debate on it. I am calling Deputy Sargent.
I am doing my best, a Cheann Comhairle.
(Interruptions.)
Deputy McManus is totally out of order and I ask her to resume her seat. The Taoiseach answered the two questions this morning.
What is your answer?
Can I ask a question?
I have a point of order.
The Deputy's point of order was ruled out of order by the Chair. I ask her to resume her seat.
Can I ask you, a Cheann Comhairle, in your role on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, to take up this issue because the accountability of the Dáil is in dispute?
We are not equipped to discuss those proceedings here. I call Deputy Kenny.
I have a question on the Order of Business concerning promised legislation.
I am calling Deputy Kenny on a different issue.
I have a question on promised legislation.
I will call the Deputy again on a different issue. We cannot have a continuing debate on the matter.
I have a question on promised legislation, which I think is in order. May I ask it? It concerns the An Bord Bia Bill. Yesterday, there was a promise of a debate on the WTO talks in Cancún but we need to have a debate on CAP reform before that. Will the Whips consider that?
The heads of the An Bord Bia Bill are expected next month and the Bill should be brought forward and dealt with next year.
The Minister for Agriculture and Food is here and I would like it noted that I have requested a debate on the CAP reforms.
The Deputy knows the position about requests for debates.
Will the Taoiseach confirm whether or not the Groceries Order is being reviewed under the terms of the Restrictive Practices Act? The Taoiseach says it is not being reviewed but the Tánaiste says it is, so what is the Government's position? Is it being reviewed or not?
I was asked if there was legislation on this matter and there is not.
There is no legislation on the matter.
That is not the question.
That is what I was asked last week.
This is the fourth time the question has been asked today.
The Deputy will have to find another way of raising the question. I call Deputy Rabbitte.
I just want confirmation that the order is being reviewed.
The Taoiseach has stated that no legislation is promised on that. I call Deputy Rabbitte.
It is impossible to get an answer from the Taoiseach or the Minister for Defence.
It would be appropriate for the House to extend its good wishes to the new Garda Commissioner on his appointment. Is it the Government's intention to persist with legislation from the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform that involves people outside pubs with camcorders, when we do not seem to be able to provide enough policing for normal law enforcement?
What in the name of heaven is happening to the insurance legislation? For six years, the Government has done nothing in this area when small firms are going out of business and when young drivers cannot get insurance cover.
I call the Taoiseach on promised legislation.
When will even the most minimal measure to establish the personal injuries assessment board be brought forward?
The Deputy should allow the Taoiseach to answer the question.
The heads of the two Bills needed to deal with this issue will be brought forward in the next few weeks.
What about the camcorders?
This morning I received a letter from a young boy who has returned from Calcutta, which was very uplifting and has prompted me to ask a question on the Order of Business. The Taoiseach will be aware that Mr. David Begg chaired an advisory group on EU Presidency priorities for the Committee on European Affairs, concerning Third World indebtedness, AIDS and other issues. In view of the fact that President Bush is proposing to make available $15 billion to tackle AIDS over the next five years, will the Taoiseach consider making time available to debate the advisory group's report here, perhaps on a Friday morning, in order to try to get these issues on the agenda of Ireland's EU Presidency as well as moving them higher up the EU agenda?
That matter does not arise at this stage. The Deputy will have to find another way of raising it. I call Deputy Gilmore.
The report—
I am sorry, Deputy, but the Chair has ruled, as have my predecessors, that it is not appropriate to ask for debating time on the Order of Business.
I see the Taoiseach indicating that he agrees with this.
It is a matter that affects millions of lives.
There is a long-standing ruling of the Chair that a Deputy requesting the Government to make a statement or allow a debate on a matter should not raise that matter on the Order of Business. Otherwise, every issue would be raised and Standing Order 26, providing for the Order of Business, would be null and void.
This is a matter of great importance and the Taoiseach is willing to have it discussed.
The Taoiseach does not want to address the issue. He does not want to reply.
The Deputy has a way of raising the matter; a request for a debate on promised business can be allowed if, for example, it has been promised in an earlier exchange in the House during Leaders' Questions or ordinary parliamentary Question Time. If Members listened to the Standing Orders, they would be aware of them when the time arises. If a debate has been promised, it is in order to ask when the debate will take place. If a debate has not been promised, then it is not in order to raise it on the Order of Business. That is a long-standing rule of my predecessors and myself.
I apologise, a Cheann Comhairle, for troubling the House with issues such as AIDS, hunger and indebtedness, when there are people here raising issues like bus stops.
The Taoiseach does not want to answer.
If Members are not satisfied with Standing Orders, they know the remedy.
I have made my point.
Approximately 400,000 people are living in private rented accommodation. Three years ago a Government commission recommended legislation to give them some minimal legal rights. The publication of that legislation was promised before Christmas, then before Easter and, most recently, before the end of this month. On which of the three remaining days in this month will the legislation be published in line with the most recent promise we had about its publication?
He has struck oil.
At last, the Bill was cleared at the Government meeting yesterday so I assume it will be published very soon.
No. 54a on today's Order Paper seeks a change in Standing Orders to accommodate access to the Dáil Chamber, both in terms of attendance and participation, by parliamentary representatives for the counties of Antrim, Armagh, Derry, Down, Fermanagh and Tyrone. Will the Taoiseach provide time at the earliest opportunity in order to have the Standing Order—
I have already ruled that question out of order. That matter is subject to a Private Members' debate.
There is a Private Members' debate on this very matter.
I call Deputy Richard Bruton.
I have a second matter to raise.
I will call you for the second matter after Deputy Richard Bruton.
A debate has been promised on transport reform under the Government's legislative programme. Will the Taoiseach bring this debate forward urgently in order that we can discuss the issue of the proposed privatisation of the Dublin Port tunnel?
Is there promised legislation, Taoiseach?
We have had a public inquiry about this as well as a vote of the City Council, based on certain undertakings given by the Minister—
Please allow the Taoiseach to answer the question.
Now those undertakings are being changed. A democratic vote must be taken if the tolling arrangement is to be changed and the ownership of the tunnel is to be changed.
There is no promised legislation.
The democratic process is being turned on its head and people's democratic rights are being undermined.
There is no promised legislation. I call Deputy Stagg. The Deputy should table a question to the appropriate Minister.
(Interruptions).
I want to raise two matters on the Order of Business.
I am amazed at the Minister's question, "Who would buy the tunnel"?
Please, Deputy Burton, allow your colleague Deputy Stagg to continue without interruption.
It was in the Labour Party's manifesto.
Tunnel vision.
The Minister should allow Deputy Stagg to continue without interruption.
In accordance with the Standing Order you just quoted, a Cheann Comhairle, a debate was promised by the Tánaiste on the health reports. When will that debate take place, given that two of the reports are currently available to the Government and another is pending?
Yesterday, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform announced a raft of legislation and I presume when he announces it outside the House, it is thereby promised. When this legislation is being taken, the Opposition has a duty to parse, examine and maybe oppose or support some of it. May I ask that the two week rule be observed whereby Members of the Opposition who have to deal with the legislation will have it two weeks in advance of its being taken in the House? There are four weeks in the next term. Given that the Minister said it will be taken during that term, can we have the legislation at an early date so that the Opposition will have a fair chance of dealing with it?
I will raise that issue.
Deputy Costello on the same issue.
We have been waiting for the—
The Deputy should ask a question appropriate to the Order of Business. Deputy Stagg has made his point very well.
This relates to the long promised legislation the Minister announced to the media yesterday – once again as proposals. I understand he will publish heads of Bills, that these heads will then go to committee and we will have a Bill at some future stage. The Minister said this will take place before the Dáil goes into recess in six weeks' time.
The Deputy has made his point. The Taoiseach to answer the question.
Have the heads of the Bill been published? Will they be —
The Taoiseach answered that question in reply to Deputy Stagg.
I am still asking the appropriate question. When will they be circulated to Members in order that we can examine them. What is the timescale now?
The Deputy is repeating Deputy Stagg's question.
In reply to Deputies Stagg and Costello, I take the point they make and I will raise the matter with the Minister. I understand he was ready to move the heads of the Bill to the committee almost immediately, to use that as part of the discussions while the legislation is in preparation and to try to get the legislation through before the summer. It will be tight but the Government would like to get the legislation through before the summer.
Can we get an assurance that it will not be guillotined?
The Deputy must allow the Taoiseach to reply.
We have been waiting 12 months.
I appreciate that so I will make the Minister aware of the issue.
I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.
The Taoiseach was asked a question. We have just four weeks left and the Taoiseach has engineered yet another holiday. When will we have the debate on the health report?
The Taoiseach on the question of a promised debate on the health reports.
The Minister for Health and Children is anxious to have the three reports available for discussion at Government and following that to have a debate. I hope that will happen in the next session.
As the health and social care professionals regulatory Bill, which is designed to address the statutory registration of health and social care professionals, was committed in the outline of legislation expected to be published before the end of the current session —
A question on legislation, Deputy.
— will it be published before the summer recess 2003?
The Deputy must allow the Taoiseach to answer the question.
Yes, that is the intention.
When?
This session.
When does the Taoiseach propose to introduce either primary or secondary legislation to alter the size of retail floor areas?
There is no legislation promised.
I wish to ask about two related pieces of legislation, one of which is urgent in view of the removal of archaeological protection from national monuments. These include the National Monuments Bill and the Heritage Powers and Functions Bill which relates to heritage by-laws. Will the Taoiseach indicate which Minister will introduce the Bills? The first Bill is very important. Under the proposed legislation, national monuments will lose the services of a professional archaeologist.
The National Monuments Bill which seeks to consolidate and modernise the five key pieces of national monuments legislation will, I hope, be published in the autumn. As the heads are concluded and the Bill drafted, it should be available in the autumn. What is the second Bill?
The second Bill is the Heritage Powers and Functions Bill. All of these Bills would not be necessary if the Ministers who succeeded me were not so intent on destroying the Department which was created to protect this heritage.
The heads of the Heritage Powers and Functions Bill have been approved and the Bill has been drafted. However, it is unlikely to be available until next year.
Given that we are losing 800 jobs a month in this country, I want to ask the Taoiseach about an industrialist who wishes to come to County Mayo – the Taoiseach was made aware of this by a backbencher yesterday. A deal cannot be done with the IDA. The State is paying €120,000—
To what Bill is the Deputy referring?
—a year for 20 years for an empty factory on which it has a 15 year lease.
A question appropriate to the Order of Business, Deputy.
I am referring to the Protection of Employees Bill. Will the Taoiseach intervene with the IDA to try to get—
Sorry, Deputy, we cannot discuss the content of the Bill. The Taoiseach on the legislation.
The Bill was published last week and it is ordered for Second Stage in the Seanad. I believe Second Stage is being taken today.
Will the Taoiseach and his officials intervene —
I call Deputy Quinn.
In regard to commitments made on the Order of Business concerning a debate on the health service, the Taoiseach has indicated that he wants to facilitate the debate by waiting until the Government has all three medical reports and, presumably, has had a chance to study them. Given that significant contents of two of the reports have become known to the public, and assuming we will have the debate before the House rises for the long summer recess, will he now revise his opinion and decision and forthwith publish the two existing reports currently in the possession of the Government? This would enable members of the Opposition to study them in order that they would be equally informed and could contribute to the debate on an equal footing with the Government which already has the reports. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment that the debate will take place and that it will be of some merit because we will have time to study the reports in advance?
It is the Government's intention to publish the reports. It is not unreasonable for the Government and Minister to wish to examine the reports first and then have a debate in the House.
Will the Taoiseach publish the reports now?
Journalists have them.
I do not have the third report.
Deputy Healy.
(Interruptions).
Allow Deputy Healy to proceed without interruption.
In view of the unanimous opposition of Irish language and Gaeltacht organisations expressed at a meeting last week in Connemara, convened by the Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Deputy Ó Cuív, is it now the position of the Government that the Official Languages Bill will be withdrawn for redrafting, particularly in relation to section 32(1)?
The Bill is before the House. I call Deputy O'Dowd.
I have a related question. When will the Committee Stage of the Official Languages Bill be taken?
That is a matter for the committee.
Will the Taoiseach give me some advice in regard to the situation at St. Vincent's on the Navan Road, where the Taoiseach—
That matter does not arise on the Order of Business. I suggest that the Deputy submit a parliamentary question or Adjournment matter. I call Deputy Shortall.
It is in the context of promised legislation. What is happening with the disability Bill and—
Deputy Burton is being disorderly. I call Deputy Shortall.
Children are coming of age and parents are distraught. The people have been—
I call Deputy Shortall.
Will the Taoiseach give the parents some assurance in relation to the disability Bill and the patient rights Bill for the children on the Navan Road—
The Deputy knows she is out of order.
There are many serious problems in the taxi industry as a result of overnight deregulation, not least the public concern about safety. We were promised a statutory regulator and told that person would be in place by the summer but there is no sign of the legislation. What is the reason for the delay with the legislation? Have the heads of the legislation been agreed and when will the Bill be published?
The taxi regulation Bill is due this summer. I do not think it will be before the House in the next session but I hope it will be published during the summer.
We must move on to No. 6.
Given the special focus on people with disabilities in the current year, what is the intention in regard to the disability Bill?
That question has been answered every day for the past three weeks. It is becoming repetitive at this stage.
The answer is the same as yesterday. The Education (Disabilities) Bill is being given priority. As soon as it is passed we will try to introduce the other Bill referred to by the Deputy. Work is proceeding on both Bills.
We will move to No. 6, National Economic and Social Development Office Bill 2002, Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.
I wanted to ask a question on the Order of Business.
The Deputy asked a question on the Order of Business. Deputies do not intervene more than once on the Order of Business, otherwise it would go on all day.
My suspicion that I am being excluded is correct.
The Deputy intervened once on the Order of Business.
Is it a ruling that Members can ask only one question on the Order of Business?
It is a matter entirely for the Chair. The criticism of the Chair is that the House is not getting through business because the Order of Business is going on for too long.
A Cheann Comhairle, you let other speakers intervene twice.
The Chair has ruled that only leaders of parties can intervene more than once.
That is not correct. There is no such precedent.
It is a Standing Order. It is entirely a matter for the Chair. Deputies are complaining that sufficient business is not being done in the House because the Order of Business is going on for too long.
A Cheann Comhairle, you have let other Members intervene twice on the Order of Business. Deputy Richard Bruton was called twice today and Deputy Gilmore was called twice yesterday.
It is entirely at the discretion of the Chair. One Member, Deputy Ó Caoláin, was called twice today because I ruled his first question to be totally out of order and I indicated I would call him a second time. Apart from the leaders of parties, it is entirely at the discretion of the Chair if other Members can intervene more than once.
I do not, and will not, accept such a ruling because there is no precedent for it. If it comes to pass that Opposition Members are to be told, like school children, that they can ask only one question per day there will have to be serious changes to the Standing Orders.
The Chair would welcome changes to Standing Orders that would stop the amount of repetition and allow the House to get on with its business.