Arthur Morgan
Question:65 Mr. Morgan asked the Minister for Transport if he will report on the progress of negotiations with worker representatives on public transport and the future of CIE. [23186/03]
Priority Questions. - Public Transport.
I am anxious to consider the genuine concerns of CIE employees regarding the reform of public transport and the future of CIE and how it might impact on their livelihoods and future careers. However, it must also be recognised that these interests need to be balanced against the requirements of public transport users and the wider national interest in an efficient and effective public transport system.
In this context and arising from a meeting I had with ICTU leaders in July, phased discussions on public transport regulatory reform involving officials of my Department and representatives of the CIE unions recommenced on 10 September 2003. Parallel discussions are also taking place with the managements of Bus Átha Cliath and Bus Éireann. The initial phase of discussions focused on the principles of public transport policy, phase two on the regulatory framework and the final phase will focus on the detailed aspects of regulatory reform of public transport. Three meetings have taken place to date, most recently on 1 October, and further meetings are planned for the near future at dates to be agreed. The current discussions are primarily focused on regulatory reform. The detailed issues concerning conditions of employment, pensions and other technical matters, which are currently being examined by my Department, will also be the subject of discussions with the trade unions in due course.
Discussions are progressing. It is my intention to proceed with the necessary legislation in 2004.
According to the Minister, at the meetings everything appears to be discussed but what should be discussed, that is, a plan to deal with public transport in the city. Is the Minister aware that independent research carried out recently compared Dublin as a trans-European benchmarking measure of performance to nine other European cities? It found that Dublin's transport services were better than the London services. Another survey, the EUROSTAT survey, found that Dublin was third in Europe whereas the London model was seventh and that Dublin was better than London in terms of overall satisfaction, safety, reliability, traffic supply and in many other areas. Why did the Minister wait until late August to send officials from his Department to London to study that model? What is the Minister's opinion of the London model?
With regard to the London model, passenger numbers are at their highest level in London since 1969 and it has the highest level of bus kilometres operated since 1963. It is experiencing the fastest growth in the number of passengers since 1945 and 80% of its fleet is fully accessible. There have been significant cost reductions in the London model and the numbers using public transport are growing dramatically. That is the experience of the London model. We have also closely studied the Helsinki model. In that model passenger numbers are up by 10% and cost savings are at 29%. In Stockholm cost savings of 25% have been achieved in the 12 years since competition was introduced and passenger numbers have increased by 18%. There are many other examples of this model.
Wherever competition in the form of franchising has been introduced, passenger numbers have increased. That is what public transport is about, getting people out of their motor cars and on to public transport. This is ultimately about passengers and nothing else.
Has the Minister looked at the other surveys which have found the current transport system in Dublin to be way ahead of the London model? If the Minister is committed to his plans, why have they not been published, at least in draft form, so that they could be discussed with him and debated by CIE employees and public representatives? Why have they not been placed in the public domain thus far? In their absence, does the Minister expect to bring legislation before this House during this session to break up CIE?
I published my plans in full in a paper I delivered to the National Public Transport Forum almost a year ago. I laid out in my reply the extensive discussions going on. My plans are therefore very much in the public arena. Scarcely a week goes by without my laying out their broad thrust or detailed discussions taking place.
Those were thoughts, not plans.
The plans were to open the markets to competition and dissolve the CIE holding company and establish three separate independent companies so that they could provide choice to the public of the city and country. I accept that—
That is a framework, not a plan.
It is a framework, and the details of plans within it can and will be worked out. I confirm that I will not have legislation ready this session, and perhaps not even next. However, I expect to enact legislation on both issues during 2004.
I am not rushing on the legislation. There is time enough.