Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Dec 2003

Vol. 577 No. 4

Order of Business.

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 16a, Dumping at Sea (Amendment) Bill 2000 [Seanad]; No. 17, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial Licences) (Alteration of Duties) Order, 2003 (back from committee); No. 17a, motion re appointment of Ombudsman for Children; No. 6a, Appropriation Bill 2003 – Order for Second Stage and Second and Remaining Stages; No. 31, Social Welfare Bill 2003 – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; No. 32, Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill 2003 [Seanad] – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 32a, European Arrest Warrant Bill 2003 – Order for Report, Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 8.30 p.m. tonight and business shall be interrupted not later than 10.30 p.m.; Nos. 16a,17, 17a and 6a shall be decided without debate and in the case of No. 6a, the Second and Remaining Stages shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair, and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; the Report and Final Stages of No. 31 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 5.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Social and Family Affairs; the Report and Final Stages of No. 32 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment; the Report and Final Stages of No. 32a shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. Private Members' Business shall be No. 46, motion re central vetting unit and child safety, resumed, to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 16a, 17, 17a and 6a agreed?

Mr. Kenny

No, Sir, it is not. In respect of No. 17, this matter was raised at the appropriate committee yesterday. The increases proposed to be put through the House are in respect of small inshore fishermen, drift net and draft net, with big increases in respect of bag net, head weir, draft net, drift net, snap net, pole net and loop net fishing. These people have only a very short tenure—

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, we cannot debate the content of the motion. You can make a brief comment on why you are opposed to it.

Mr. Kenny

I am opposed to these increases being put through the House in this way. In respect of No. 17a, which has been included in this proposal, I commend the Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, Deputy Lenihan, for the way he has gone about this business. This is an important appointment and the way he has approached it, by going through the Civil Service Commission rather than making a political appointment, is to be commended. I am not sure whether he has accepted my request that the matter be decentralised.

Mr. Rabbitte

He will not go far in the party with that approach.

Mr. Kenny

Not many of the Members in the Chamber today would know that the late Vivion de Valera, a member of the Fianna Fáil Party and of an esteemed family, used to complain during the annual debate on the Appropriations Bill about all the money being voted through on the nod. In this case there is a request for €31 billion to be voted through without discussion. That is wrong and in view of this I oppose the Order of Business.

Mr. Broughan

On No. 17, the Labour Party shares the views expressed about the motion. We welcomed yesterday the additional funding that will be provided for the regional fisheries boards but the increases of up to 70% or 75% are unreasonable.

Mr. Sargent

I wish to raise a number of matters but in particular cuirim fáilte roimh cheapachán Ombudsman na Leanaí agus gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit ag an Roinn Sláinte agus Leanaí, an Teachta Brian Lenihan, as an méid ullmhúcháin a bhí ann roimh ré faoin ábhar. This is a cross-departmental appointment and in that regard it warrants debate rather than being simply noted on the Order of Business. The motion sanctioning the appointment of the Ombudsman was accompanied by statements in the House and in view of this and having regard to parity of esteem, the appointment of the Ombdusman for Children warrants a similar treatment. Furthermore, the Ombudsman for Children will be dealing with children from Gaeltacht, Galltacht, Gaelscoileanna and others, but it is not yet clear whether a full range of services through Irish as well as English will be provided by his office. It is necessary to hold a debate on this matter.

Deputy Kenny referred to the proposal to pass the Appropriation Bill 2003 without debate, which provides for such a large amount of money. The Bill should be debated in full.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Cuirim fáilte roimh cheapachán Emily Logan mar Ombudsman na Leanaí. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh léi go geal san obair thábhachtach atá roimpi. Tá áthas orm go ndearna an tAire an cinneadh seo roimh sos Nollag. Bhí achan duine sa Teach ag súil le Ombudsman na Leanaí le blianta anuas agus is maith an rud é go bhfuil an ceapachán déanta.

Ar an Appropriation Bill, cosúil leis na Teachtaí a labhair romham, ní aontaím gur chóir go mbeimid ag déileáil leis seo sa dóigh seo. Tá ceist ann fosta go bhfuil muid ag tabhairt €831,000 do dhream nach bhfuil ann fiú. The secret service is receiving €831,000, despite the fact that it does not exist.

Mr. Durkan

It is a secret.

The Tánaiste

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to agree to the Deputies' request. We already have a crowded agenda today and the House will sit until 10.30 p.m.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 16a, 17, 17a and 6a be agreed.”

Tá

Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.

Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.

Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fleming, Seán.Fox, Mildred.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.McDaid, James.McEllistrim, Thomas.

McGuinness, John.McHugh, Paddy.Martin, Micheál.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wilkinson, Ollie.Woods, Michael.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.Boyle, Dan.Breen, James.Breen, Pat.Broughan, Thomas P.Connaughton, Paul.Connolly, Paudge.Coveney, Simon.Cowley, Jerry.Crawford, Seymour.Crowe, Seán.Cuffe, Ciarán.Deasy, John.Deenihan, Jimmy.Durkan, Bernard J.Enright, Olwyn.Gilmore, Eamon.Gogarty, Paul.Gormley, John.Harkin, Marian.Hayes, Tom.Higgins, Joe.Kehoe, Paul.Kenny, Enda.Lynch, Kathleen.

McGinley, Dinny.McGrath, Finian.McGrath, Paul.McManus, Liz.Mitchell, Gay.Morgan, Arthur.Murphy, Gerard.Naughten, Denis.Neville, Dan.Noonan, Michael.Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Keeffe, Jim.O'Sullivan, Jan.Penrose, Willie.Rabbitte, Pat.Ring, Michael.Ryan, Seán.Sargent, Trevor.Sherlock, Joe.Shortall, Róisín.Stagg, Emmet.Stanton, David.Twomey, Liam.Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 31, the Social Welfare Bill 2003, agreed?

Mr. Rabbitte

The Social Welfare Bill 2003 has been guillotined at all Stages and it is now proposed that it be guillotined on Report and Final Stages. It is not just the Labour Party and the Deputies on this side of the House who are appalled at the cuts being implemented by the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Coughlan.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the detail of the Bill here.

Mr. Rabbitte

I will not discuss its detail, but I want to highlight the serious expressions of concern from the Minister's superintendent welfare officers who have assured her that the cuts will lead to a worsening of homelessness in our society. That is not merely the view of any party on this side of the House. These people are loyal public servants—

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy's comments would be more appropriate on Report Stage.

Mr. Rabbitte

That is the whole point. Report Stage is to be guillotined and I am trying to explain as succinctly as I can why guillotining all Stages of this Bill, including Report Stage, prevents the opportunity to discuss that the cuts in social welfare imposed by this Minister will cause additional homelessness. This is based on the conviction of her own superintendent welfare officers. The Labour Party has managed to force a U-turn on one aspect of rent supports, but—

An Ceann Comhairle

This is not appropriate to the Order of Business.

Mr. Rabbitte

—we must oppose the guillotine on this measure for these reasons.

Mr. Boyle

The likelihood is that Report Stage of this Bill will take two and a half hours, taking into account the sos and questions this afternoon. It was originally intended that two sessions would be allocated for Report Stage. However, the ordering of yesterday's business meant that one of these sessions was lost. There is an onus on the Government to provide the additional time, considering this is one of the more important Bills the Dáil passes every year. Far more amendments are proposed than can be accommodated in the time allowed. I would ask the Government to provide the additional time originally promised for this measure.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 31 be agreed."

Tá

Ahern, Michael.Ahern, Noel.Andrews, Barry.Ardagh, Seán.Aylward, Liam.Brady, Johnny.Brady, Martin.Brennan, Seamus.Browne, John.Callanan, Joe.Carey, Pat.Carty, John.Cassidy, Donie.Collins, Michael.Coughlan, Mary.Cregan, John.Curran, John.Davern, Noel.Dempsey, Tony.Dennehy, John.Devins, Jimmy.Ellis, John.Finneran, Michael.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Fox, Mildred.Gallagher, Pat The Cope.Glennon, Jim.Grealish, Noel.Hanafin, Mary.Harney, Mary.Haughey, Seán.Hoctor, Máire.Jacob, Joe.Kelleher, Billy.Kelly, Peter.Killeen, Tony.Kirk, Seamus.Kitt, Tom.Lenihan, Brian.McDaid, James.McEllistrim, Thomas.McGuinness, John.Moloney, John.Moynihan, Donal.Moynihan, Michael.Mulcahy, Michael.Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.O'Connor, Charlie.O'Dea, Willie.O'Donnell, Liz.O'Donovan, Denis.O'Flynn, Noel.O'Keeffe, Batt.O'Keeffe, Ned.O'Malley, Fiona.O'Malley, Tim.Parlon, Tom.Power, Peter.Power, Seán.Roche, Dick.Ryan, Eoin.Sexton, Mae.Smith, Brendan.Smith, Michael.Treacy, Noel.Wallace, Dan.Wallace, Mary.Wilkinson, Ollie.Wright, G.V.

Níl

Allen, Bernard. Boyle, Dan. Breen, James. Breen, Pat. Broughan, Thomas P. Connaughton, Paul. Coveney, Simon. Crawford, Seymour. Crowe, Seán. Cuffe, Ciarán. Deasy, John. Deenihan, Jimmy. Durkan, Bernard J. Enright, Olwyn. Gilmore, Eamon. Gormley, John. Harkin, Marian. Hayes, Tom. Higgins, Joe. Kehoe, Paul. Kenny, Enda. Lynch, Kathleen. McGinley, Dinny. McGrath, Finian. McGrath, Paul. McManus, Liz. Mitchell, Gay. Mitchell, Olivia. Morgan, Arthur. Murphy, Gerard. Naughten, Denis. Noonan, Michael. Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín. O'Keeffe, Jim. O'Sullivan, Jan. Pattison, Seamus. Penrose, Willie. Rabbitte, Pat. Ring, Michael. Ryan, Eamon. Sargent, Trevor. Sherlock, Joe. Shortall, Róisín. Stagg, Emmet. Stanton, David. Twomey, Liam. Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 32, Report and Final Stages of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board Bill 2003, agreed to?

Mr. Rabbitte

Again, a guillotine is being proposed. This measure originated in the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment in 1997 and was intended as a minor reform. Since then it has been translated, as a result of coat-trailing by the Tánaiste, into the most major reform in the history of Irish insurance that is guaranteed to reduce premia and so forth. It is, of course, a minor reform but it required more detailed discussion of submissions made on behalf of the Bar Council, the Law Library and other vested interests. We oppose the guillotine on the debate.

Mr. Sargent

The Green Party opposes this proposal on the basis that the guillotine does not offer an opportunity for Green Party Deputies to discuss all the amendments.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 32 be agreed to", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 32a, Report and Final Stages of the European Arrest Warrant Bill 2003, agreed to?

Mr. Boyle

This is the third Bill to be guillotined today. The debate on this Bill is likely to conclude with a vote and the Green Party is unhappy that, having expressed reservations about the content of the Bill, it is being treated in such a way. The debate on it will be shortened and the vote will be the last business of the House this evening. On those grounds, the proposal is not acceptable.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I concur with Deputy Boyle. It is a ridiculously short time to deal with such a controversial Bill. There was also only a short time to discuss it on Second Stage. The problem is not just the content of the Bill but also the fact that the Minister introduced more than 30 amendments on Committee Stage and proposes to introduce further amendments on Report Stage tonight. That is not the way to deal with legislation. Haste results in bad legislation and makes bad legislation worse, which is happening in this case. The Bill will have major implications for people's human rights so there should be more time for a proper debate on all Stages.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 32a be agreed to”, put and declared carried.

Mr. Rabbitte

In 2001, the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform pledged to introduce legislation to provide for the appointment of a Garda ombudsman or inspectorate. Having regard to the debate last night about the Nally report and the fact that the study had to be carried out by three eminent former public servants, there is an acute necessity in this jurisdiction for somebody equivalent to the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland to be appointed without delay. The legislation was promised in November 2001 and several times since then, including in July by the current Minister. When is this legislation likely to be introduced?

The Tánaiste

The heads of that Bill were approved by the Government last summer and the Bill will be published next January. It will probably be brought before the House shortly thereafter.

Mr. Durkan

It is proposed to introduce legislation to oblige licensed operators in telecommunications to retain records of traffic data. When is the legislation to be introduced? Is the spirit of the legislation already in operation?

The Tánaiste

I do not believe it is. The legislation is due next year. The heads of the Bill have not yet been cleared by the Government.

Mr. Sargent

There is urgent promised legislation which needs to be addressed, given the report in the business section of the Irish Independent that Ireland might face €7 billion fines as a result of failing to meet energy targets. This relates to the failures of transmission in the ESB grid. The transmission planning Bill is on the list of proposed legislation. Can the Bill be brought forward as a matter of urgency, given that the wind energy sector is being denied access to the grid and there has been a significant failure to deal with this issue?

The Tánaiste

As the Deputy is aware, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government will bring forward legislation on critical infrastructure. The matter will be dealt with in that context.

Mr. Sargent

I did not get an answer on the Bill.

An Ceann Comhairle

If Deputies did not make preambles to question the Tánaiste would understand the legislation referred to and be able to answer the question.

The Tánaiste

The Bill has not been progressed because it will be incorporated in the critical infrastructure Bill.