Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 May 2004

Vol. 586 No. 2

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

The Order of Business today shall be No. 8, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of a Council framework decision on attacks against information systems; No. 9, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Acts against the Safety of Maritime Navigation 1988; No. 10, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 18, Health (Amendment) Bill 2004 — Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 29, International Development Association (Amendment) Bill 2003 — Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, shall be decided without debate, Report and Final Stages of No. 18 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. tonight by one question to be put from the Chair, which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin. Private Members' Business shall be No. 41, motion re housing.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House, the first being that for dealing with Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, without debate.

Mr. Sargent

The Green Party is opposed to motion No. 9 if it does not include naval vessels from whichever country regarding unlawful acts against the safety of maritime navigation. I see that the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources, Deputy Dermot Ahern, is with the Taoiseach. Perhaps he will clarify the matter. It is totally unacceptable to many fishermen around the coast that submarines snag nets, yet that is not seen as coming under the definition of an unlawful act against the safety of maritime navigation unless it includes naval vessels. That should be registered.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I object to No. 8 being referred to committee without debate. It arises from an EU proposal of which the Government has been aware since 25 March. There has been adequate time to address that properly on the floor of the House. It involves the harmonisation of criminal law, something we have not properly debated in the Dáil. Accordingly, its passage would be without the due scrutiny that it deserves. That should have been addressed here.

The Taoiseach

No. 8 has been referred to a committee and those points can be taken up in it. No. 9 is a motion regarding terrorist acts and would not cover an act caused by negligence. It is designed to deal with unlawful acts of criminality and terror.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 8 to 10, inclusive, without debate be agreed", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The second proposal is that for dealing with No. 18, conclusion of Report and Final Stages of the Health (Amendment) Bill 2004.

Ms McManus

I am conscious that time is very limited, but I ask that this matter not be guillotined. This legislation is disturbingly retrogressive. It eliminates all public scrutiny and accountability from the activities of health boards and has not been properly debated in this House. On Committee Stage, amendments were found not to be in order by a chairman who was clearly not fully informed regarding his role in striking them down. We did not have a proper debate on Committee Stage. This matter is of public interest. If this Bill is passed as it stands, CEOs of health boards will be like despots, they will be able to make decisions on behalf of boards that no longer exist. They will be able to buy and sell land, deal with property and implement the Hanly report without democratic accountability. We have one amendment on Report Stage, which has been introduced by the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Martin, and it is likely that it will not be reached. This is a very "milk and water" response to the serious complaints and issues that have been raised by Opposition Deputies, including myself, about the ending of the democratic input into our health services.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made her point.

Ms McManus

Will the Taoiseach undertake to lift the guillotine so we can pursue this matter in a way that is appropriate to parliamentary structures?

Mr. Boyle

The Green Party is opposed to the Bill. It has had a short Second Stage and a less than adequate Committee Stage, and there is a proposed short Report Stage. Given that we see yet another Minister introducing amendments on Report Stage that will not be debated, which will have tremendous consequences for the Bill, we cannot agree to the guillotine.

Ms O. Mitchell

I support the request from my colleagues not to impose a guillotine because it is a critical Bill that is being introduced by the Minister to abolish the representation of county councillors on health boards. We are approaching a local election and the Government is effectively saying that not alone are councillors superfluous, but it is denigrating the role they have played over the years. It now sees the opportunity to circle the wagons, to make decisions behind closed doors, including the implementation of the Hanly report, where no questions can be asked in the next critical six months, when all decisions about the health services will be made.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Sinn Féin Deputies are not prepared to support the guillotine in this case or indeed the passage of the health amendment Bill. The Bill seeks to abolish democratic accountability in the delivery of health services. It proposes to abolish health boards in their current form and to place all the power in the hands of the CEOs and, indeed, the Minister for Health and Children, who cannot be divorced from that. An important point that needs to be emphasised in this regard is that there is no time limit on this. The Minister has stated that "it is indicated", "it is hoped for" and "it is intended to", but there is no definitive time lapse as regards the CEOs' hold. The date 31 December this year is signalled, but nothing the Minister has said guarantees that this period of time is set in stone — far from it. There is real concern as to how long after that date the CEOs will continue to exercise such major powers. We strongly object to this. In addition, we have yet to see the roll-out of the alternative structures because the health Bill——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the motion before the House at present.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

——has yet to be presented to this House to inform us of what will replace health boards.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 18 be agreed."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 60; Níl, 34.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Dermot.
• Ahern, Michael.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Cooper-Flynn, Beverley.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cregan, John.
• Curran, John.
• de Valera, Síle.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Hanafin, Mary.
• Harney, Mary.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• Lenihan, Conor.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M. J.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• O’Connor, Charlie.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donoghue, John.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Seán.
• Roche, Dick.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Dan.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Wright, G. V.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Boyle, Dan.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Cowley, Jerry.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Cuffe, Ciarán.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Gormley, John.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Paul.
• McHugh, Paddy.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stanton, David.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Hanafin and Kelleher; Níl, Deputies Durkan and Crowe.

Question declared carried.

Mr. Kenny

Now that the Minister for Agriculture and Food is present, will the Taoiseach say whether it is proposed to seek an updating of the nitrates directive while we hold the Presidency of the European Union in view of the serious concerns it is causing for thousands of farmers? Commissioner Fischler said that it is out of date. I understand the Government wants to seek a derogation about what should be an updating of the directive, which affects 14 countries.

The Taoiseach

The Minister said that discussions with the farming organisations on this have been ongoing for some time. The aim is to work towards achieving a derogation in the future.

Mr. Kenny

It should be updated.

Mr. Crawford

It has been there since 1991.

Ms Shortall

With regard to the long-promised State airports Bill does the Taoiseach intend to adhere to the undertaking that he gave to allow time for the workers to consider the information made available and to respond to it before the legislation is finalised?

The Taoiseach

The legislation is under preparation and the issue is that the workers want to make their submissions but cannot. I intend to honour my commitment to give them time to make them.

Mr. Sargent

The Electoral Amendment Act, which has been signed into law, is a matter of great concern to many people. Has the commencement order which accompanies the Act been signed as the Minister reported? It is not in the current issue of Iris Oifigiúil, which would be expected in the normal course of events.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy submit a question to the Minister. I call Deputy Crawford.

Mr. Sargent

It is promised legislation and my question is to do with the implementation of that legislation. Is the Taoiseach not aware of this?

An Ceann Comhairle

We must move on to the Health (Amendment) Bill. We cannot discuss matters extraneous to the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

I am not trying to delay the debate, I am trying to elicit an answer.

Mr. M. Smith

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. Sargent

The Commission on Electronic Voting cannot publish its report until that commencement order is signed. Will the Taoiseach not publish the commission's report? I can understand his embarrassment but it is not right.

Mr. Crawford

When will the transport reform Bill and the transport companies Bill be brought into the House? Will there be a——

The Taoiseach

The transport reform Bill will be introduced this year.

Ms O’Sullivan

Has the disability Bill been agreed and finalised?

The Taoiseach

The disability Bill, the Comhairle Bill and the sectoral plans are close to completion. I do not think they will be ready in the next week or two but they should be ready shortly.

Mr. Naughten

Not before 11 June.

The Taoiseach

We continue to discuss the issues with the disabilities groups.

Mr. M. Smith

The Deputy should wait until he sees the package inside, he will be sorry he was not in earlier.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Does the Taoiseach agree with the Minister of State, Deputy McDaid, that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform tends to become wired to the moon at election time?

An Ceann Comhairle

That matter does not arise.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

What is the result of that incident? Will a new electoral Bill be required——

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Is there a proposal to introduce to amending legislation to the Committees of the Houses of the Oireachtas (Compellability, Privileges and Immunities of Witnesses) Act 1997 regarding any proposed moves under Article 35 of the Constitution or otherwise?

The Taoiseach

Yes, it has been recommended that a short amendment be made. That is being considered and will be discussed at a meeting later this evening.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Can the Taoiseach give an indication of when we might see that legislation?

The Taoiseach

With the agreement of the House, it could be done this week.