Trevor Sargent
Question:1 Mr. Sargent asked the Taoiseach if he will report on the 22 April 2004 CSO Census of Population figures; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15609/04]
Ceisteanna — Questions.
Census of Population.
The Central Statistics Office issued the 13th and final volume of the 2002 Census of Population on 22 April 2004. The report covered housing characteristics and the following are the highlights. Approximately 197,000 dwellings, representing 15% of the total housing stock of 1.28 million dwellings occupied at the time of the census, were built in the intercensal period 1996 to 2002. This represents an annual average of close to 33,000 dwellings compared with 19,000 in the previous five year period. The 2002 census identified 110,000 occupied flats or apartments, representing 8.6% of all dwelling types — up from 6.5% in 1991. A third of these apartments were built since 1991.
Apartment living, however, varied considerably from county to county. Dublin city, at 29%, had the highest proportion while south Dublin, at 2.6%, had the lowest proportion. Owner occupied dwellings continue to have the most prevalent occupancy status. While the number of such dwellings increased by 22.7%, from 807,000 to 991,000 between 1991 and 2002, their share of all housing units actually fell from 80.2% to 77.4% — the first time such a decline was recorded in recent decades.
The number of private rented dwellings almost doubled from 71,000 to 141,000 between 1991 and 2002, following declines observed during the previous 30 years. One in nine dwellings at State level are now rented privately. More than three-quarters of private dwellings had five or more rooms in 2002, while the corresponding proportion was 40% in 1961. However, the census results contain some evidence of increased numbers of one, two and three roomed dwellings being built since 1991 following falls during the previous three decades.
Of the 1.28 million dwellings in the State, more than 400,000 made use of individual septic tanks in 2002. Most of them, 94%, were in rural areas where more than three quarters of dwellings use this method of sewage disposal. A further 19% made use of public schemes. In urban areas, 93% of dwellings were serviced by public schemes.
I congratulate the Central Statistics Office on the achievement of the goal, which it set out in its statement of strategy for 2001-03, to disseminate the full range of census results within two years of census day.
I hear what the Minister is saying about apartments and one bedroom dwellings and so on. Does she not feel there is a need to look more closely at what is happening in reality? Apartments are being built without provision for children and without facilities for raising a family. A great deal of social deprivation will be created due to difficulties people will have raising children in premises built essentially for short term profit for those building them. Can the Minister give figures on the number of children being reared in the apartments referred to and compare the figures she has given to the strategic planning guidelines for the greater Dublin area which clearly state that there should be building in the metropolitan area, but only local growth should occur in Wicklow, Kildare and Meath?
Is it not the case that the strategic plan has failed, given that a quarter of all housing stock in counties Meath and Kildare was built between 1996 and 2002? The Government has no intention to ensure compliance with strategic planning guidelines. With all our talk on decentralisation, it does not sound as if the Government is doing anything to counteract the concentration of population in the Dublin area.
Policy is a matter for the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
The statistics the Deputy has demanded are not contained in the census report.
I would like to ask a supplementary question.
Deputy Sargent's supplementary question has to be answered.
My understanding of the Standing Orders of this House is that when a question is asked of the Taoiseach any Member of the House may ask a supplementary question.
Deputy Sargent asked a supplementary and as far as it related to the question——
He did it very well, but that does not interfere with my right to ask a supplementary question.
No one is interfering with that right, but he is entitled to hear the Minister reply before I call anyone else.
I thought she had finished.
The relevant question on the Central Statistics Office was on the figures for the children. Those statistics are not available in the census report.
In that case will the Minister be mindful of the need for those figures to give a more accurate reflection of the nature and quality of family life of people living in those areas, and the sustainability of those residential areas?
Policy issues are for the Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
When I answer questions on statistics, Deputy Sargent frequently asks me questions on quality of life. May I dare suggest yet again that it is not possible to determine quality of life on a statistical basis?
(Interruptions).
What has gone wrong with Deputy Sargent's party? Two of them are on their feet shouting at the same time.
I wish to raise a point of order. It is on a question asked about the type of statistics that have been collected by the Central Statistics Office. Surely such a question is in order and there should be a response to it. If certain types of statistics are not being collected, the Deputy is entitled to ask why they are not being collected and what the Minister intends to do with the Central Statistics Office to make sure that such statistics are collected in the future. That answer has not been given.
If Members confine themselves to asking supplementary questions relative to statistics rather than drifting into policy, perhaps it would be clearer for everyone in the House.
A relevant answer would be useful.
Deputy Sargent frequently asks questions about quality of life. This is a very important issue, but it cannot be determined statistically in a census. As the Deputy will be aware, prior to the beginning of the census or the publication of the final document, a pilot project takes place which incorporates some of the questions which can finally end up on the census form. A similar pilot project took place in April. Some of those questions will be used. Anybody and everybody is invited to make submissions about the type of questions they feel should be on the census form. I know Deputy Sargent has been involved in one of them as we discussed it here before.
The questions on this housing report are already very specific and deal with the type of accommodation a household occupies, when it was first built, the nature of the occupancy and so on. It is quite detailed regarding the type of property and its age, as that was the focus of that census. In future the census will be able to deal with other issues. This one also dealt with the number of those houses which had Internet access, a question which would not have been anticipated ten years ago. Different questions come on to the census form and I know that the general public is invited to make submissions as to what those questions should be.
Are there any statistics on apartment living, which as we know is expanding? Is the CSO keeping statistics on the number of apartments being purchased in blocks by landlords, or being retained by developers that are then rented to tenants, many of whom are highly transient? Due to apartment block purchasing, for instance in many suburban areas——
Will the Deputy please ask the question?
Does the Minister have statistics on the percentage of apartment blocks which are now landlord owned? Does she have statistics on the clusters of apartments owned by property developers and builders, which are being held and let to transient tenants, leading to a lack of community building and so on? Owner occupiers, young couples who buy——
The Deputy should confine herself to questions.
I seek the indulgence of the Ceann Comhairle. This is a new social phenomenon around our towns and cities.
The question deals purely with statistics.
Yes, but I want to know if the CSO is capturing this important change. The number of apartments owned by landlords and the clusters of apartments owned by property developers which are held in groups make up to 60% of new apartment block developments in cities and towns.
The statistics which have been gathered are those which I read out from the 2002 census. There are 110,000 occupied flats and apartments, which represents 8.6% of all dwelling types. One third of them have been built since 1997. It is significant that Ireland at 77.4% has one of the highest owner occupancy rates in the EU surpassed only by Greece and Spain. Despite the fact that undoubtedly there is an increase in the number of people living in flats and apartments, that seems to indicate that the ownership rate is still much higher than all of our counterparts in Europe apart from two.
The Minister's answer is helpful up to a point. The point about new apartment blocks in recent times is that over 70% of them are investor or developer owned.
That is a statistic. Has the Deputy got a question for the Minister?
Can the Minister agree to look for those statistics? We need to know the number of landlords and extent of cluster ownership of these apartments.
The question relates to the census. The census is a statement of where individual people are on a particular night. In this case it was Sunday, 28 April 2002. The information, therefore, is as I have outlined.
Arising from the information supplied by the public to the census, what are the returned figures on rented dwellings and how do they compare to rented dwellings registered with local authorities? Did the census highlight those figures, in other words, the level of compliance by owners of rented dwellings with the regulation that they should register with local authorities?
I am sorry but I do not understand the question.
The census shows the number of rented dwellings.
Yes.
Does that figure match the figure for rented dwellings registered with local authorities, which would indicate the level of compliance with the regulations in place regarding the registration of rented dwellings with local authorities?
Perhaps the Deputy should table a question to the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
That is not a matter for the Central Statistics Office.
On the Minister's figures — my question is entirely statistical — if we take the total volume of households from the census and the total number of owner occupied dwellings there is a difficulty with the figures. My question is straightforward. Is it the Minister's conclusion that from the form as structured it is impossible to discern the ownership pattern for accommodation? The Minister of State said she can identify the number of people who are renting and those who are owner occupied. I have a difficulty in that these figures do not stack up.
If we want to identify, say, the degree of multiple ownership, that is, the people who owned four or five houses five or six years ago and who own 20 today, the census offers no guide on that. In the revision of the form, and regarding the people who are the registered owners, is the Minister in a position to state the degree to which multiple ownership has become a dominating pattern in apartment and house purchase or is a separate survey required to identify the new landlordism in Ireland?
The question asked on the census is helpful and while it may not address all the points the Deputy raised it gives us some indication. People were asked the type of accommodation their household occupies. The basic answer was given, whether it was detached, semi-detached etc. On the question as to the nature of occupancy of the household's accommodation, the options were owner-occupied where loan or mortgage repayments are being made, owner occupied where no loan or mortgage repayments are being made, being purchased from a local authority under a tenant purchase scheme, rented from a local authority, rented unfurnished other than from a local authority, rented furnished or part furnished other than from a local authority and occupied free of rent as in the case of a caretaker or company official. The information that has been gleaned from these questions is useful because the questions were specific. As far as I am aware, the Deputy got a copy of the census report. If not, I can ensure he gets the full table.
I am trying to be helpful in asking if it is not in the public interest that we should know the changed nature of ownership because it arises in regard to tax, policy and so on, in other words, the people who have the number of houses they own multiplied by three or four from that information, which is very confusing. I suspect, for example, that some of the landlordism is buried in the alleged owner occupancy side for tax benefits. How will the Minister of State identify the degree of speculative ownership? If it cannot be done from that census, does it require an entirely separate investigation in the public interest?
It is a good question but I am not sure it can be answered under the census, the reason being that we are asking an individual about his or her position. To get the information Deputy Higgins is requesting would almost envisage asking a tenant if he or she knew how many other houses the landlord owns——
Yes.
——which would not be for the tenant to answer because he or she can only do that on the census form.
A pilot survey could be done.
The information would have to be gleaned from the landlords themselves. How do we survey landlords, as it were?
They could register with local authorities.
We could have a day of national confession.
I am not saying it is inappropriate to do it. I do not believe it could be done under the census because we are asking the question of an individual in his or her own home.
My question is statistical but it is vital that we pursue Deputy Higgins's question. Many apartments are bought off the plans by investors and that is creating a new landlordism, as he said.
I expect from the Minister's subsequent reply that my question is not a difficult one. She said the census is a measurement of the people on a particular night in various locations. In that case, is it not possible to find out from the number of apartments, about which I asked initially, how many children, either in terms of locations or even on average, live in those apartments, which in many cases were not built for children. They were built for a single person or a couple but no provision was made for children. Is it not possible to give us an indication whether children are being reared in those apartments?
If it is, all I can say is that for the purposes of this report, that information has not been extrapolated, except in regard to the number of persons rather than the age groups of those persons.
Will the Minister of State indicate if there is any intention to correlate the number of people who say they are living in rented accommodation with the numbers of apartments and flats registered with local authorities, and to use that information?
It is not the function of the Central Statistics Office to correlate it with local authorities.
Is it the function of Government?
On that question, it is incredible that we know the numbers of people living in an apartment but we do not have a breakdown of the ages. Are we suggesting there could be four or five adults living in a one or two bedroom apartment? Is it not possible to know the ages? I understood the census contained a question on ages. Are we saying the information has not been collected or collated? Why is it not possible to indicate the number of children living in apartments?
If that information is available it has not been extrapolated for the purpose of this report.
It can be.