Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 2004

Vol. 588 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions.

Mr. Kenny

I welcome the Taoiseach back to the House. It must be difficult for him to adjust from the lofty heights of international politics on the world stage as President of the European Union. It is not a case of, "Come back, all is forgiven." The House will have an opportunity to pay him credit for his work in Europe later this morning.

While the Taoiseach was away, a series of elections was held here. In the course of those elections, his name, his title and his photograph were used without his permission in the sunny south-east, in respect of representatives who would be fair and honest. People were asked in the Taoiseach's name to vote in a particular way. This ethical scandal comes in a long list. I remind him of the history of his involvement in the signing of blank cheques, which he admitted some years ago. There were reports of Fianna Fáil election literature stapled to voting cards. There was the misuse of the diplomatic bag in the case of a letter, which was actually signed by the Taoiseach.

The letter which is at present in question makes for interesting reading. It calls for support for a candidate whom it describes as "patriotic and honest". I understand this letter was sent to over 2,000 constituents. Will the Taoiseach say if he has seen this letter? Did it carry his consent and imprimatur? Does he regard it as a forgery and if so, what action does he propose to take as a consequence?

The Taoiseach

I hope I am not hearing correctly that since I went away poor Deputy Kenny is suffering from loss of memory. The election was discussed in the House a fortnight ago. My last visit to this House was following the election and it was discussed on two consecutive days.

Mr. Kenny

I am not suffering from loss of memory.

Mr. Durkan

That came from the Orient here.

The Taoiseach

I am pleased to inform Deputy Kenny that this side of the House has in recent years put in place legislation covering standards in public office which is very good legislation in my view.

Mr. Howlin

It was done by us.

The Taoiseach

It allows for investigation of all matters that are deemed inappropriate. The Government has laid down guidelines and standards that have been endorsed by the Standards in Public Office Commission regarding use and misuse. Issues about the use of Oireachtas envelopes were raised during the election. Questions were asked about who used Oireachtas envelopes and their use by Members of the Oireachtas from different parties. That matter has been brought to my attention. I could list a fair litany of instances for the Deputy. It may be best to leave it to what has been stated by the Standards in Public Office Commission, that there should not be a misuse of public funds given to either political parties or to office holders.

In answer to Deputy Kenny's question on the issue of Lorcan Allen, I did not have any prior knowledge that my signature was to be used on a letter to voters in Gorey. Had I known, naturally I would have taken steps to ensure it would not happen. Something like that should not happen. The general secretary of the Fianna Fáil Party is reporting to the national executive on that matter next week.

Regarding the other matters raised, the House has made a number of changes in its rules in recent years and most Members are abiding by those rules.

Mr. Kenny

The Taoiseach is correct when he says that legislation was introduced by his Government in regard to ethical standards. These ethical standards were not followed in all cases.

Mr. M. Ahern

Dr. Garret FitzGerald's signature was forged by Fine Gael.

Mr. Kenny

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Noel Dempsey, sitting beside the Taoiseach, was man enough to apologise to the House after the Standards in Public Office Commission reprimanded him. We are still waiting for the Minister of State, Deputy Fahey, to appear and that speaks for itself in terms of the legislation introduced by the Government.

The Taoiseach should not talk about the general secretary or the national executive of Fianna Fáil. The letter has a picture of the Taoiseach on it and it states, "A lot done, more to do." The Taoiseach's signature appears on it. The Taoiseach is still President of the European Union and this letter was sent out in his name.

I recommend the Taoiseach read the Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 which states in section 25:

A person is guilty of forgery if he or she makes a false instrument with the intention that it shall be used to induce another person to accept it as genuine and, by reason of so accepting it, to do some act, or to make some omission, to the prejudice of that person or any other person.

If the Taoiseach does not take action, he is likely to have a situation arise where his name and title could be used in anything from an application from a student for a summer job in McDonald's to somebody wishing to enter the United States with a reference from Bertie Ahern. It is not good enough in his capacity as Taoiseach and leader of the Government of our country and as one who has served very well as President of the European Union. In the context of this legislation, it behoves him to do more than refer the matter to the general secretary and national executive of the Fianna Fáil Party. What does the Taoiseach propose to do about it?

The Taoiseach

The investigation of this matter is fairly clear. The individual concerned has already said he is totally guilty, the letter was forged and it was an inappropriate use.

Mr. Howlin

What is the consequence?

The Taoiseach

It is now a matter for the party to deal with. That is the procedure. The person has stated it was a misuse and an abuse and that he was totally incorrect to use the signature. I have given a reply on the matter and it now falls on my party to deal with it. That is all I can say.

Mr. Rabbitte

Like Deputy Kenny, I welcome back the Taoiseach. We will have an opportunity later to compliment him on his Presidency of the European Union. Now that he is back, the entire country is waiting to hear when he will reshuffle the most under-performing, indigent Cabinet in the history of the State. In case the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Cowen, has any doubt about what went on while he was away, most of his backbench Deputies and, surprisingly, the Minister for Finance agree with me.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs must have heard the Minister for Finance state this morning that the normal tendency in this Cabinet is for Ministers to blame anyone but themselves for their lamentable performance. He stated he is tired of lecturing colleagues "who are crying and whinging about not doing things". The current Cabinet, he said, would not be in Government forever and for God's sake should get on and do it. Despite this, he cannot get a response.

It is little wonder that a forlorn photograph of the Minister for Transport appears on the front page of the Irish Independent this morning. Our visitors from the United States Congress would consider it a scandal if in that great country, with its budget, a roads programme costed at €7 billion ended up costing €16.5 billion. It is the same with everything the Government touches. The Minister for Health and Children cannot tackle queues for public hospitals or deal with accident and emergency or any other matter. He cannot deal with anything except producing another report.

I welcome the return of the Minister for Foreign Affairs because he told his party's backbench Deputies last night that the decisions taken on Aer Rianta will be reversed and the legislation——

Mr. Cowen

That is not correct. As the Deputy was not in attendance, he does not know what he is talking about.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow Deputy Rabbitte to continue without interruption.

Mr. Cowen

He should concern himself with his own party.

Mr. Rabbitte

If I am not correct, I withdraw my compliment but my comment should have been correct. Any Government that proceeds with the break-up of a company and then seeks to establish whether there was any basis for breaking it up should not be in power. We have a history of wasteful Ministers spending public money inefficiently on projects such as the failed experiment on electronic voting, Punchestown and so forth.

Mr. Cowen

Does the Deputy have a question?

Mr. Rabbitte

We have a Minister for Finance who as recently as this morning defended his stance on tax evasion. This is the same Minister who, for the first time in the history of the State, has 52% of all taxpayers paying at the top or marginal tax rate. When will the Taoiseach reshuffle this incompetent Cabinet?

The Taoiseach

I am not sure what is the question but I will give an answer anyway.

Mr. McGinley

When will the Taoiseach change his Cabinet?

Mr. Durkan

He should ask his backbenchers what is the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption, please.

The Taoiseach

I am glad to have the opportunity to state that recent reports on the economy and areas that will affect Ministers show that the economy is growing again by 4% to 5%——

Mr. P. McGrath

Tension on the backbenches is also growing.

The Taoiseach

——employment has increased considerably, unemployment has fallen considerably and the level of resources invested in infrastructure is higher than ever. All my Ministers are making excellent progress on the programme for Government.

I am also glad to note the Comptroller and Auditor General, in his report, acknowledges that some of the changes we have made on the construction and road programmes are having an effect on fixed priced contracts and proving very successful.

Mr. Connaughton

It is late in the day.

The Taoiseach

I am also glad that he highlights in his reports the big difference between indicative figures, tender figures and final contract figures, which is explained well.

I assure Deputy Rabbitte we will continue in Government for the next three years. He should not worry too much about the faces and names as we will continue to apply the same excellent policies.

Mr. Rabbitte

It will be a cause of national gloom if the best the Taoiseach can do in terms of making a commitment to the people is to state the Government's intention to carry on as before. He has seen the response of the people and the disaffection with a Government that has grown so arrogant that its own backbenchers are in revolt.

Mr. Cowen

The Deputy knows all about arrogance.

Mr. Rabbitte

Yesterday, for example, the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform announced he hopes to have legislation on immigration control by Christmas. This is the man who told us that it was a matter of the greatest urgency that we have a referendum and would not permit a proper debate on the issue in the House or anywhere else. Now he indicates he may have legislation by Christmas. He mistakenly believes that to announce is to do. Provided he keeps making announcements he believes he is doing something about crime on our streets and anti-social activity. He planned to tackle the Garda, prison officers and so forth, while the Minister for Education and Science intended to tackle educational disadvantage.

I accept that a number of other Ministers have not made any mistakes because they have not done anything. When will the Taoiseach deal——

Mr. Cowen

What did the Deputy do while in Government?

Mr. Rabbitte

I thought the Minister would be house trained and would learn some manners in Iveagh House.

Mr. Cowen

I do not need lectures on manners from Deputy Rabbitte.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister should allow Deputy Rabbitte to continue.

Mr. Cowen

He is making patronising sneers.

Mr. Rabbitte

Perhaps the Taoiseach has not had time to contemplate the matter but when will he ask the House to return in July to deal with the Government crisis in terms of its paralysis, incompetence, waste of public money and inability to do simple things well?

The Taoiseach

I hope we will complete our legislative programme for this session over the next week or so. I do not need to give Deputy Rabbitte a lecture as he would not appreciate it. The Government has implemented very effective and imaginative legislation across a whole host of areas.

Mr. Timmins

We have had more guillotines.

The Taoiseach

To pick a few areas and state nothing is happening is a waste of Leaders' Questions, which are meant to discuss an issue of the day.

Ms Burton

The Taoiseach should talk to the Minister for Finance.

The Taoiseach

I have been away for two weeks and if the only thing the leaders of the Opposition can come with up are today's questions, God help them. It is no wonder they did not gain anything in the local and European elections.

Mr. Connaughton

The Taoiseach should tell that to the Fianna Fáil Party councillors who lost their seats. His party lost the elections.

Mr. Durkan

I am speechless. The Taoiseach did not see the results.

Mr. Sargent

While I welcome back the Taoiseach, it is regrettable that he has not changed one iota because his answers do not relate to the questions or make much sense. Perhaps his answer to a question will be an issue of the day. I welcome the commencement at long last of the Luas service, particularly as the Green Party was the first party to call for a light rail service in the 1980s. The Fianna Fáil Party promised light rail for Dublin in 1991 but we have had decades of dithering before what Dubliners are calling the ‘Daniel Day Lewis' is operating. At least, however, we have something to show after so long.

In the face of the scathing and scandalous reports about lack of planning and cost analysis in transport, particularly in today's Irish Independent, has the Government learned anything in recent years and will it change its ways in the future? Will a comprehensive Luas system be provided whereby the two lines will be connected between Abbey Street and St. Stephen’s Green?

More pertinently, when will the Government make a decision on the metro, given that it has been promised so often? When I asked about the metro on 30 September 2003, the Taoiseach replied: "The matter will come before Government in the next few weeks when we will make a decision." The Minister for Transport stated in May 2003, "I will bring my proposals to Government in the coming weeks"; in June 2003 he said "Next month"; in July 2003 he said "Shortly"; in October 2003 he said, "In the coming weeks we will have the metro decision"; in November 2003 he stated, "It will be coming to the Government shortly"; in December 2003 he said "In the coming weeks"; in January 2004 he said "coming weeks" and he made the same statement in March. Promises have been made repeatedly. How many weeks will it take for a decision to be taken on the metro? For a change, will the Taoiseach give us a date because "coming weeks" is like Waiting for Godot?

The Taoiseach

I welcome the Deputy's support for the Luas project, which has taken time. It has been costly for the taxpayer but it is a good project. Hopefully, finalisation of the original report will happen in time, whether it is in the form of the metro or otherwise. As the Deputy is aware, we have examined a number of proposals. The Rail Procurement Agency has brought forward many proposals over the past few years regarding a metro or completion of the Luas or a light rail system. The difficulty is the cost of these projects has been astronomical and the cost is way out of line with what is considered reasonable for the taxpayer to bear.

Mr. Boyle

What about the roads programme?

The Taoiseach

We have looked at alternatives to see if the projects can be done more cheaply. We have examined what has happened internationally. For example, we looked at the Spanish experience in detail. It is easy for people to point out how it can be done cheaply in some places but not in others. However, planning laws, constitutional law and the rights of people vary and one cannot match like with like. The Minister for Transport has reviewed all the reports he has received and all the alternatives, and we must make a decision on this.

Deputies

When?

Mr. McCormack

Shortly, in the coming weeks.

The Taoiseach

It is a question of the finances involved.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

When?

The Taoiseach

Does the Deputy want to listen?

Mr. Gormley

We want answers.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Deputy Sargent's question. I ask the Deputies to leave it to their party leader.

Mr. Sargent

I am leaving it to the Taoiseach to answer my question.

The Taoiseach

The issue of a final decision on this will be based on whether the capital programme can for a sustained number of years cost such a huge project.

Mr. Cuffe

When?

The Taoiseach

To put a metro into the city on the scale proposed by the Minister and the Department would take up an enormous section of the capital programme for the entire State for an inordinate number of years and we must examine whether the project should be phased or whether we can complete part of the project. My feeling is it will be extremely difficult to undertake the entire project. One cannot justify the cost of the entire project over other priorities in the rest of the State. The Government will make a decision on the resources that can be put in shortly.

Mr. Sargent

I did not ask the Taoiseach about his feelings, I asked him when he would decide on the metro, but he talked about having to watch the cost. The level of brass neck was astounding because reports in today's newspapers indicate a total disregard for the cost of such projects. A sum of €9.4 billion in taxpayers' money has been wasted on capital projects and that must be addressed. Luas cost €750 million but €9.4 billion has been wasted. A number of Luas lines and a good metro could be built for that amount. It is amazing the Taoiseach is not prepared to address that issue and reach a decision on the metro while he is at it.

The Taoiseach referred to a cost problem, yet no cost benefit analysis has been conducted on the roads programme, the NRA's road needs study was rejected by him and he has decided to build 800 km of motorway. I am amazed I have not received a reply to the question I asked. A cost benefit analysis of the roads programme has not been conducted, yet four times more is being spent on roads than on public transport in the capital programme. When will the metro decision be taken? The people need to know. The Taoiseach told me in September 2003 that a decision would be taken in a few weeks. Can we at least get a date?

The Taoiseach

The Government will decide shortly how much resources we can commit to the project.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

The Taoiseach has been saying that for the past year.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy says money was wasted.

Mr. Sargent

I am not the only one saying it.

The Taoiseach

Money is not wasted. When a project is proposed, an indicative sum is listed before site acquisition, a decision on a route, planning or a tender price — I refer to the tender price of most contracts in recent years. The Comptroller and Auditor General acknowledges that fixed price contracts are coming in more or less on time. For example, there have been difficulties with the enormous port tunnel project but the total price will be under €700 million, which compares favourably with the tender price. There is not much change even on large scale projects, particularly if one considers the design issues that arose on the port tunnel project.

Mr. Sargent

So a sum of €9.4 billion is not much.

The Taoiseach

There is a difference between 1999 and 2004 prices but roads projects were proposed and indicative prices listed. Land values, construction prices and price inflation changed in the interim.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

What about the NRA road needs study?

Mr. Kelleher

The Green Party objects to every project.

Mr. Eamon Ryan

We would rather spend the money on public transport.

The Taoiseach

A fair examination will show the reasons for this. We cannot waste money and we must ensure it is well used, but like must be compared with like. Final price should not be compared with indicative price. The tender price, at least, should be used for comparison and that shows there is not much difference.