Adjournment Debate.

Pupil-Teacher Ratio.

Mr. Kehoe

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for giving me the chance to raise this important issue in the House. This refers to Bree national school in Enniscorthy, County Wexford, which has 180 pupils. It is an extremely good school with excellent educational facilities and good results. The principal is John Joe Fitzgerald and the chairman of the board of management is Fr. Aidan Kavanagh. The school is in my parish and I was educated there many years ago.

In June 2004 the Department of Education and Science sanctioned the school to appoint an extra teacher to its staff, based on the enrolments early in the year, to start in September 2004. The school, however, did not reach the target of 184 pupils and had only 180 pupils on the roll by 30 September — two families did not enrol due to housing problems. The sanction was reversed. The school appealed this but the Department of Education and Science turned down the appeal. As a result third and fourth classes joined to form a single class of 40 pupils. There are six classes in Bree national school, junior infants, senior infants, first, second, third and fourth combined, fifth and sixth. Three of these comprise more than 31 pupils, far above the departmental guidelines. The management and teachers feel that the post must be sanctioned because this would meet the children's needs better than their present environment of 37 or more pupils in some classes and over 40 in others.

While I recognise the Minister is under pressure and has many decisions to make, the school and I make this appeal to her. The pupils are being denied the attention that is their right. To date the school has been informed that the extra pupils will arrive and enrol in the coming weeks — two have already enrolled. This increases the numbers in the school and diminishes the quality of the learning environment. As the school is close to Enniscorthy town it is developing rapidly.

Will the Minister tell me tonight that the extra teacher can be sanctioned in line with the sudden growth of the school? The Department aims to ensure that all primary schools operate in an average mainstream class size of 29 pupils. A class of 40 pupils is most unsatisfactory for teacher and pupil, especially for the teacher who tries to identify the weaker pupils in the class. Some parents fear that if their children are lacking in some area of their education they will not be identified in such a large class because the teacher will not have the time to give them one to one attention.

Bree national school is not in a position to distribute its pupils in minimum class sizes. For the Minister to say tonight that she will ask the Department's inspector in County Wexford to monitor the situation would be an unacceptable answer. It is unacceptable to have 40 pupils in one class. Will the Minister look on this favourably? I hope she will be able to give me some good news that I will be able to convey to the staff of Bree national school.

Minister for Education and Science (Ms Hanafin)

I thank Deputy Kehoe for raising this matter in which he obviously has a personal interest, having been educated there himself. The staffing of a primary school is determined by reference to the enrolment in the school on 30 September of the previous school year. Those are the guidelines. They work fairly throughout the country, are objective and one may deviate from them only where a school experiences rapid growth in enrolment. In such cases, an additional post, referred to as a developing school post, may be sanctioned provisionally where the projected enrolment at 30 September of the school year in question equals or exceeds a specific figure.

The enrolment of the school referred to by the Deputy on 30 September 2003 was 159 pupils, which warrants staffing of a principal and five mainstream posts for the 2004-05 school year. On the basis of projected enrolments, a developing school post was approved provisionally in July 2004. However, the required enrolment figure was not achieved and sanction for the post was withdrawn.

To ensure openness in the teacher allocation system at primary level, an independent appeals board is now in place to decide on any appeals on mainstream staffing. The staffing of this school for the 2004-05 school year was considered by the appeals board on 21 October 2004. The board, having considered the appeal with regard to the criteria outlined in Department circular 19/02, was satisfied that a departure from the staffing schedule was not warranted in this case. The board of management of the school was notified of the decision of the appeals board on 21 October 2004. I am sure that any Deputy would appreciate that it would not be appropriate for me to intervene in the operation of the independent appeals board.

The staffing schedule at primary level is structured to ensure that all primary schools will operate to an average mainstream class size of 29 pupils. I too would be concerned if there were 40 children in a class since there is no reason for it. It is up to local school authorities to ensure that the children are distributed in classes of a more equitable size. The Deputy said that there were three classes with 31 pupils. There is therefore no reason for one class to have 40. It is up to the school to ensure equitable distribution of pupils in classes and that the differential between the largest and the smallest classes is kept to a minimum.

Mr. Kehoe

They have tried and are unable to do so.

Ms Hanafin

The Deputy is right. The inspectorate is monitoring the deployment of staff and class sizes to see why we have a situation whereby, on the figures given to me by the Deputy, there are 40 pupils in one class and four other classes with an average of 29. That is obviously something that must be examined to see on what basis school policy decisions in this regard have been made and why there are 40 in one class. Perhaps the banding of classes might be done differently. As the Deputy knows, significant improvements have been made in the pupil-teacher ratio at primary level in recent years, coming down to approximately 17.5, as a result of which class sizes have reduced. We will continue to do that. However, that is not the issue tonight, rather it is that of a particular school. I regret, regarding the decision of the independent appeals board on the school, where the projected figures were not achieved, that it is not possible for me to intervene in its work.

Schools Refurbishment.

Mr. McGinley

I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this important issue on the Adjournment and the Minister for her presence in the House at this rather late hour.

There are two national schools in Dunfanaghy, Holy Trinity and Holy Cross. The former was extended and refurbished a few years ago, and today it is suitable for the educational needs of modern curricular requirements. I had occasion to visit both schools in Dunfanaghy in recent weeks. On the other hand, Holy Cross School, the subject of the Adjournment debate, definitely belongs to the first half of the last century. Space and facilities for both teachers and pupils are grossly inadequate, to put it mildly.

Holy Cross national school was constructed in 1960 as a two-classroom school. Little has been done since apart from the installation of an oil-fired central heating system in 1996. The school is outdated, unsuitable and unsafe to teach or meet the demands of the present child-centred curriculum. The building, originally constructed as a two-teacher school, is now being used by two mainstream teachers, a resource teacher also based in the school, a visiting learning support teacher, two special needs assistants, a part-time secretary and 37 pupils. It is unbelievable that a two-classroom school should have so many demands on its limited space.

The situation is extremely unsatisfactory for the following reasons. First, the cramped conditions make it extremely dangerous for the entire school community, including teachers and pupils. Second, there are no classrooms for the resource teachers or the learning support teacher. Third, there is no staff room and no office facilities. Fourth, the toilets are most unsatisfactory and have no hot water, and the cisterns are of asbestos which has the potential to become a serious health hazard. Following a storm last Halloween, the flat felt section of the roof has been leaking, and management has been advised that the section requires re-felting immediately because of the danger with electrical fittings and so on. Children in the school with special needs have no space or classroom in which those needs can be catered for.

Having visited the school a few weeks ago, I was impressed by the dedication of both teachers and pupils working under almost impossible conditions. The extra teachers were confined and operating from cubby-holes no bigger than wardrobes. The classes were jam-packed with no room for movement. Facilities such as offices, staff rooms and general purpose rooms are non-existent. As far as such facilities are concerned, the pupils of Holy Cross are being treated as second-class citizens and that is simply not acceptable.

The truth is that the school must be improved and modernised immediately to create a safe environment for the entire school community. The plans are ready to be implemented. With the extra resources available for such buildings next year, Holy Cross in Dunfanaghy should be catered for. I understand that the estimate for the refurbishment and extension is less than €250,000. It seems ludicrous to put the safety of children at risk for what is by modern standards such a meagre figure. Will the Minister include the above school in the new building programme under active consideration? Many other schools in the area have been renovated and modernised in recent years, and it is most unfair that Holy Cross should be left waiting for basic minimum accommodation requirements. Will the Minister seriously consider, after a long wait, the case of Holy Cross school in Dunfanaghy?

Ms Hanafin

I thank Deputy McGinley for raising the issue of Holy Cross national school in Dunfanaghy. I am sure when he spoke of the pressure on space that he meant to say that it was because the school had been allocated so many extra staff in recent years.

Mr. McGinley

Yes, we appreciate that very much, and I should have mentioned it.

Ms Hanafin

I believe that the current enrolment is approximately 35 pupils.

Mr. McGinley

It is 37.

Ms Hanafin

I appreciate the pressure that it would put on space, but for 35 pupils there could be up to five different teachers in the school at any one time. I am sure the Deputy will agree that is a generous allocation of teaching staff to a school. The staff includes a principal, a mainstream assistant, a shared permanent resource teacher, a shared learning support teacher and a shared resource teacher. Despite what the Deputy described as cramped conditions, I have no doubt the children are getting the very best of education, care and attention.

The school has submitted an application for an extension to and refurbishment of the building. Deputies will be aware that on Sunday I announced the funding that will be allocated to schools during the course of next year. Some €270 million will be allocated to primary schools and €223 will be allocated to post-primary schools. Those are generous allocations.

The Deputy mentioned exposure to asbestos in the school in question. It is important that the school contacts the Department immediately about the asbestos problem the Deputy said was present in the cisterns.

Mr. McGinley

It is in the cisterns in the toilets.

Ms Hanafin

We have a special emergency fund for remediation works in respect of asbestos. It covers dealing with dust extraction and the presence of radon. Therefore, it is important that the school contacts the Department immediately particularly in regard to the presence of asbestos.

I do not know about the costings of the project. The Deputy mentioned a figure of €250,000. We have a scheme under which we devolve money locally to small and rural schools for the provision of additional accommodation. We will examine those over the next few weeks. Perhaps up to 120 schools will be invited to participate in that scheme. We will examine that as soon as we announce the major projects that will come on stream.

Over the next few weeks I will highlight the major projects in respect of which final preparations will go to tender, those advancing to site stage over the next 12 to 16 months, those that have been invited to participate in the devolved scheme, public private partnership projects and those included in the summer works scheme.

I do not know if the Deputy is aware of whether the school applied for funding under the summer works scheme. Some of the issues he highlighted might have been included in the school's application, which I will consider.

Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin

I thank the Leas Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise another school issue and I thank the Minister for taking the matter. While listening to Deputy McGinley, I thought that if we had the same scriptwriter, he or she could have duplicated the Deputy's speech in respect of this school because I have a similar story.

The story I am bringing to the Minister's attention is Scoil Bhreac Chluain in Annascaul in County Kerry. It has 91 pupils and is in urgent need of funding. Annascaul is a rapidly developing area. Planning permission has been granted for a number of housing developments in the area and the school will be under severe pressure due to the increase in the population. The school is about 100 years old and it also has cramped conditions.

The school's board of management has applied for funding for a new school but it is still awaiting sanction for it from the Department. In the meantime there are two issues that need to be dealt with. The school has applied under the summer works scheme 2005 for the provision of a new boiler because the existing boiler does not heat the school. I visited the school on Monday and went to the boiler house and what I saw frightened me. Rust is falling off the pipes and the children are not being provided with proper heat. It is an urgent problem. Addressing this problem would not cost a great deal. The board of management wants a new school, but this problem must be dealt with if provision for a new school will not be sanctioned this year. The provision of heat is an important health issue.

There is another difficulty in the school. It has also applied for funding for the provision of a prefab. There is no place in the school for the children to do PE or to exercise, particularly in the winter months when it is raining because the children cannot go outside. The children have to do their artwork in the corridor adjacent to the toilets. It is the only place they can do such work. Last Monday when I visited the school the principal told me that a nurse is due to call to the school to carry out eye tests for the pupils. A room of a certain size is required to do that. To facilitate the nurse, the principal will have to vacate a classroom for about two hours. If it is a fine day, the children who use that classroom will be in the playground for two hours, but if it raining, the only place they can use is the corridor. That is the reality. The children are being deprived of physical education.

It is a wonderful school and the teachers deserve every credit. They teach chess, Irish dancing, drama and a great number of after-school activities. If the school was allocated funding for the provision of a prefab, it would make life that much easier. It would also be safer because having to do artwork in the corridor outside the toilets is not acceptable and the condition of the toilets, as in the case of the school referred to by the previous speaker, is not great because they are old and unsuitable.

The chairperson of the parent's council wrote to me pointing out that the pupils are being deprived of their right to take part in physical activities and health education, to explore and express their creativity through artwork, to be part of an assembly group and be involved in role-plays and dramatic productions, all because they have no space in which to perform these activities. The principal and staff of the school are worthy of exceptional praise because they provide such a high standard of education, considering the limited facilities they have. The parents rightly believe that the provision of funding for a new boiler and a prefab should be granted as provision for these needs is mandatory. They are not seeking anything special, they are looking for the provision of heat and a space for the pupils to do their artwork and PE. There is a major debate currently about childhood obesity and exercise is important factor in addressing that problem. Unfortunately, in Kerry we experience a high level of rainfall. Therefore, it is not possible for the pupils to play in the school yard all the time.

I am aware the Minister is making decisions on schools and it is opportune for me to bring her first-hand the story of Scoil Bhreac Chluain. A new school is required, but if it is not possible to sanction approval for it this year, the two facilities I mentioned should at least be provided to make life more bearable for the pupils and the teachers.

Ms Hanafin

I thank the Deputy for raising the conditions in the school with which she is obviously familiar. The current enrolment of the school is 91 pupils with a principal and three mainstream assistants, plus a permanent resource teacher. The school's enrolment increased slightly over the five years from 85 pupils to 91 pupils. That school has four classes and four permanent classrooms, a principal's office, a staff room, a library and learning support-remedial room.

Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin

The classrooms are the size of cupboards, I would not call them rooms.

Ms Hanafin

According to the information I have, the school has a library and a learning support-remedial room, which is extra space over and above the four permanent classrooms. I am surprised to hear that the pupils do their artwork in the corridor.

Ms B. Moynihan-Cronin

They do.

Ms Hanafin

Art is part of the central core curriculum. I am sure there are pupils who are able to do their artwork within their own classrooms, but I have not seen the situation. I take the Deputy's word for it because she visited the school.

The school has submitted an application for the provision of an extension and the refurbishment of the existing building to include a general purpose area and improved toilet facilities. Prefabs are generally allocated for the provision of extra classrooms. From what the Deputy has said, the classroom space is not a requirement in so far as there are four classes and four classrooms.

The Deputy raised the issue of funding under the summer works scheme. Next year I hope to allocate €60 million to the summer works scheme — a successful scheme — to allow schools to carry out improvement works during the summer holidays. This year we allocated €31 million and 448 schools benefited. It may be possible next year to include a number of other schools and a number of more costly projects, which are important to provide things like windows, heating and so on. The school has applied for a replacement boiler under the summer works scheme. I will examine that with a view to making a decision in early February. All such decisions are based on need rather than on any decision of mine.

Next year a sum of €493 million is being allocated for schools. A total of 141 major building projects are already on site and 28 will start over the coming weeks. I will announce details of 75 major primary and 30 major post-primary projects which will be authorised to complete the design process in the coming weeks. They will go to construction over the next 12 to 16 months. A further 18 to 20 post-primary schools will be included in public private partnerships and 120 primary schools will be invited to take part in the devolved scheme for providing additional accommodation.

With all of that and the €60 million under the summer works scheme, I hope to be able to make real inroads into the building need of schools throughout the country. I will certainly examine the needs of scoil náisiúnta Bhreac Chluain in the context of the summer works scheme.

Naval Service.

Mr. Kelleher

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue. It relates to the problems experienced by members of PDFORRA, enlisted members of the Defence Forces, in airing their concerns to senior management in the Naval Service and the Defence Forces and right through to the Department of Defence.

I represent a constituency that has a major naval base in Haulbowline and am aware that it is sometimes frowned upon for members of the Defence Forces, the Naval Service in this case, to come to me to air their grievances. However, if the mechanisms requested by PDFORRA and agreed upon by senior management were functioning properly, I would not be in this Chamber raising this issue. The reason I am is because PDFORRA's views and the concerns it has raised regarding sea days, impacts on family life and many other issues have not been addressed and no cohesive debate is taking place in the Naval Service between management and PDFORRA to address the concerns of ordinary members of the Defence Forces.

Individuals highlighted their concerns to me as a person who acknowledges the work done by the Defence Forces, particularly the Naval Service, and the huge strides made to achieve efficiency and bring forward the implementation plan. The five-year plan is moving to its final year in 2005. An agreed conciliation and arbitration process was set up so that ordinary enlisted men could air their grievances and concerns. However, there are still difficulties.

Most of the people involved in the Naval Service who are represented by PDFORRA have no difficulty in improving efficiency and productivity levels. However, the consultation process has not been as effective as initially expected. That is an indication of the problems I am trying to highlight. We all accept that the Navy must go to sea and that it must stay at sea. Every member of PDFORRA accepts that. However, huge sacrifices are being made. Changes in the structures, the amount of time that must be spent at sea and the amount of time available when they come back from sea to recuperate and be involved in family life are made without consultation. The basic fabric and structures of what we would consider to be ordinary everyday living are not comparable when dealing with people in the Naval Service. They join the service in that knowledge. However, their concerns should be listened to. It is disappointing that, having set up a process for the enlisted men and women, it has not functioned to the standards envisaged.

There is a strong maritime tradition in Cork. The members of the Defence Forces in the Naval Service are committed to productivity and want to see the Navy fly the flag. Equally, the management and the Department of Defence must acknowledge that co-operation is a two-way street. To date it has not been that.

In the broader context, the Naval Service has performed its duties admirably, not only in protecting our fisheries but in transporting troops to various conflict areas throughout the world and taking our flagship right across the world to Hong Kong, China and elsewhere. It is an important factor in Ireland's commitment to the UN. However, There are major problems regarding consultation, negotiations and basic discussion between management and the members of PDFORRA on the issue of bringing about the efficiencies and productivity outlined in the five-year plan.

Ms Hanafin

I thank Deputy Kelleher for raising this issue, which I will answer on behalf of the Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea.

The system of representation introduced in 1990 provides, at national level, both a conciliation and arbitration scheme and a military forum, either of which can be used by PDFORRA to raise issues coming within the scope of representation which are of concern to its members. In addition, a set of agreed arrangements are in place which provide mechanisms for issues to be raised at every level in the Defence Forces.

At various stages during the formation and implementation of the Naval Service implementation plan, consultations have taken place at both local and national level. The Minister is not aware of any particular issues arising. Were there any issues, he would have expected PDFORRA to use any of the fora available to it to have them addressed. I understand that Naval Service issues are a standing item on the agenda for the military forum and a meeting of the forum is scheduled for next Monday.

I concur with Deputy Kelleher on the value of the work the Naval Service does. It is respected throughout this country and abroad. The Minister has asked me to say that he would be very concerned if PDFORRA has decided to embark on a course of lobbying public representatives on issues. He is very surprised at this course of action in light of the fact that the issue has not been raised under the formal machinery in place for dealing with such matters. Embarking on such a campaign is in breach of the terms of the conciliation and arbitration scheme, and the Minister is of the view that it will do nothing to advance the consideration of this or any other claim. He asks the Naval Service to use the services and facilities that are available.

The Dáil adjourned at 11.20 p.m. until10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9 December 2004.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 8 Dec 2004