Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 2004

Vol. 595 No. 3

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 14, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Fisheries (Miscellaneous Commercial Licences) (Alteration Duties) Order 2004, back from committee; No. 14a, motion re establishment of a commission of investigation — Dublin-Monaghan bombings; No. 5, Appropriation Bill 2004 — Order for Second Stage and Second and Subsequent Stages; No. 22, statements on Northern Ireland; and No. a1, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004 [Seanad] — Second and Subsequent Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 14, 14a and 5 shall be decided without debate, and in the case of No. 5, Second and Subsequent Stages shall be decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in regard to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Finance; the proceedings on No. 22 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after two hours and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the statements of the Taoiseach and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; (ii) the statements by a spokesperson from each of the groups, who shall be called upon in the following sequence, shall not exceed 20 minutes in total — Government, five minutes; Fine Gael, five minutes; Labour, five minutes; and Technical Group, five minutes; (iii) members may share time; and (iv) a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply. which shall not exceed 20 minutes; the suspension of the sitting under Standing Order 23(1) shall take place on the conclusion of No. 22 until 2.30 p.m. and the sitting shall also be suspended for 30 minutes following the announcement of matters under Standing Order 21; and the following arrangements shall apply in relation to No. a1: (i) the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 6.30 p.m. tonight; the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the speech of each other member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; (ii) the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 7 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in regard to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. Private Members’ Business shall be No. 45, motion re An Post, resumed, to conclude at 8.30 p.m.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 14, 14a and 5 agreed?

Mr. Kenny

I have no objection to Nos. 14 and 14a, which are important matters. However, No. 5 should be debated. It used always be an occasion for a debate on the Adjournment of the House. When I entered the House first, I recall the former Deputy Vivion de Valera always spoke about passing so much money through the Appropriation Bill without a debate. That point is as relevant today as it was then. On that basis, I object to the Bill being taken without debate.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I seek clarification on No. 14a. When will the terms of reference of the investigation be published? Will they come before the Dáil for approval? Will the commission hold public or private hearings?

The Taoiseach

The motion is before the House.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The terms of reference are not in the motion.

The Taoiseach

The terms of reference have been agreed.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

When will they be published? I realise the Taoiseach does not have them with him.

The Taoiseach

If I understand the procedure, there was an agreement with Justice for the Forgotten that the commission members and whoever chairs the commission will discuss the terms of reference with the group. The Government has concluded its work on them. The arrangement was that the group would have an input into them.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Will they come before the House for approval? Will there be public or private hearings?

The Taoiseach

I am not certain that is necessary. I will check the procedure and let the Deputy know during the day.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is Deputy Kenny opposing the proposal?

Mr. Kenny

Yes,

Question put: "That the proposal to deal with Nos. 14, 14a and 5 be agreed.”

The Dáil divided: Tá, 70; Níl, 52.

Tá

• Ahern, Bertie.
• Ahern, Noel.
• Andrews, Barry.
• Ardagh, Seán.
• Blaney, Niall.
• Brady, Johnny.
• Brady, Martin.
• Brennan, Seamus.
• Callanan, Joe.
• Callely, Ivor.
• Carey, Pat.
• Carty, John.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Collins, Michael.
• Coughlan, Mary.
• Cregan, John.
• Cullen, Martin.
• Curran, John.
• Davern, Noel.
• Dempsey, Noel.
• Dempsey, Tony.
• Dennehy, John.
• Devins, Jimmy.
• Ellis, John.
• Finneran, Michael.
• Fitzpatrick, Dermot.
• Fleming, Seán.
• Fox, Mildred.
• Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
• Glennon, Jim.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Haughey, Seán.
• Healy-Rae, Jackie.
• Hoctor, Máire.
• Jacob, Joe.
• Keaveney, Cecilia.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kelly, Peter.
• Killeen, Tony.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Tom.
• Lenihan, Brian.
• McDowell, Michael.
• McEllistrim, Thomas.
• McGuinness, John.
• Moloney, John.
• Moynihan, Donal.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Mulcahy, Michael.
• Nolan, M. J.
• Ó Fearghail, Seán.
• O’Donnell, Liz.
• O’Donovan, Denis.
• O’Flynn, Noel.
• O’Keeffe, Batt.
• O’Keeffe, Ned.
• O’Malley, Fiona.
• O’Malley, Tim.
• Parlon, Tom.
• Power, Peter.
• Power, Seán.
• Sexton, Mae.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Smith, Michael.
• Treacy, Noel.
• Wallace, Mary.
• Walsh, Joe.
• Wilkinson, Ollie.
• Woods, Michael.
• Wright, G.V.

Níl

• Allen, Bernard.
• Boyle, Dan.
• Breen, James.
• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Connaughton, Paul.
• Connolly, Paudge.
• Costello, Joe.
• Cowley, Jerry.
• Crawford, Seymour.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Enright, Olwyn.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Gogarty, Paul.
• Gormley, John.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Higgins, Michael D.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McHugh, Paddy.
• McManus, Liz.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Murphy, Gerard.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Keeffe, Jim.
• O’Shea, Brian.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Pattison, Seamus.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Quinn, Ruairi.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ring, Michael.
• Sargent, Trevor.
• Sherlock, Joe.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Upton, Mary.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Kelleher and Kitt; Níl, Deputies Kehoe and Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 22, Statements on Northern Ireland agreed? Agreed.

Is proposal No. 3, the proposal for dealing with the suspension of the sitting, agreed? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. a1, Second and Subsequent Stages of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2004 agreed?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Bill was published at the end of last week but was not received by Deputies until Monday of this week. All Stages are to be taken together and amendments were to have been submitted by 11 a.m. yesterday, which gave less than 24 hours to consider all the ramifications involved. That is indecent haste to say the very least. Such an important issue requires the most careful consideration. We do not believe this allows adequate time, especially when one considers the consequences. Many people would welcome the opportunity of mortgage access for affordable housing, but at whose insistence or request is this being done? Was it the Bank of Ireland?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into the detail of the Bill. The Deputy should make a very brief comment as to why he is opposed to it.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I understand that. These are very important issues. We are looking at a guillotine being applied to a Bill that could have serious consequences for people, particularly in the context of rising interest rates, which could present at any time.

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise at this stage.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It does not arise but it might arise.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It might arise. The Ceann Comhairle does not have a crystal ball.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot debate the Bill. He is opposing the Bill and he has given his reasons.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

It could happen. I object to the guillotine because I do not believe it allows a full and proper consideration of what is involved.

Mr. N. Dempsey

We heard it the first time. We do not need a Second Stage speech.

The Taoiseach

The reason the Government wants to rush this through is to allow the private market to get involved because it became clear that this would be necessary to allow the sale of affordable housing under the Sustaining Progress affordable housing initiative. The urgent introduction of this legislation would allow the private financial institutions access to the affordable housing mortgage market, which is a very good thing. They have never been involved in this market.

The Deputy referred to Bank of Ireland. Its entry into this market is being observed by all interested parties and I hope the bank will be followed by all the others. It is not just for one bank. This product will help young people to access affordable housing. I would have thought all Deputies in the House would have been delighted to pass this legislation.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. J. Higgins

It will help make more profits for the banks, as if they did not have enough already.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No.a1. be agreed”, put and agreed to.

An Ceann Comhairle

I point out to the House that following the Order of Business we will commence a two hour debate that will take 45 minutes out of the time for the sos. The House will resume after the sos after 15 minutes at 2.30 p.m. Does anyone have a brief question on the Order of Business?

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I wish to raise an urgent issue with the Taoiseach. It involves a loophole in the procedure relating to search warrants.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would prefer if the Deputy would raise the matter directly with the line Minister. If he has a question on legislation, I will hear it.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

The legislation is promised. Emergency legislation is needed.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question must be on promised legislation.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

I raised the matter with the Minister in the Dáil following the decision of the Supreme Court at the end of October.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Legislation is urgently required. We have seen examples of emergency legislation——

An Ceann Comhairle

That does not arise on the Order of Business.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

When will the legislation be produced before the Dáil?

An Ceann Comhairle

Is legislation promised?

The Taoiseach

I understand from the Minister that the Attorney General is looking at this matter. He is examining the point of law.

Mr. J. O’Keeffe

Does the Taoiseach not see the urgency of the situation?

The Taoiseach

I do not have an indication of when the Attorney General is to report but he is examining the matter.

Mr. J. Higgins

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call the Deputy first tomorrow. No. 14, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the fisheries——

Mr. J. Higgins

A Cheann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I will call the Deputy first tomorrow. We are long behind time. A two hour debate will now commence which will take 45 minutes from the sos time. The staff of the House will have 15 minutes between 2.15 p.m. and 2.30 p.m. when we will resume with Question Time. I will call on all Deputies who are offering tomorrow. We have gone far too long over time today. We will dispose of those matters to be taken without debate.