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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Oct 2006

Vol. 624 No. 3

Priority Questions.

Deportation Orders.

Jim O'Keeffe

Question:

129 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the number of non-Irish nationals, in each of the years 2000 to 2005, who were eligible to be considered for deportation pursuant to section 3(2)(a) of the Immigration Act 1999, having served a term of imprisonment; the number of such non-Irish nationals who were so considered; the number of such non-Irish nationals who were subsequently deported; and his views on whether adequate procedures were in place until recently to ensure that such cases were given proper consideration. [30827/06]

I refer the Deputy to my replies to a series of parliamentary questions which he asked earlier this year and in particular my reply to his written Question No. 468 of 27 June 2006. Since then a comprehensive reply to these queries issued to him from my office on 20 September 2006.

By way of background, it should be noted that the effect of a deportation order when served on a person is that the person concerned is legally obliged to leave the State and to thereafter remain out of the State. In addition, it should be borne in mind that while section 3(2) of the Immigration Act 1999, as amended, which is the relevant legislation in this area, provides for a deportation order to be made in a variety of circumstances, set out in paragraphs (a) to (i) of that section, in practical terms, deportation orders tend to be made based on the provisions of section 3(2)(f) of the Act, that is, where the person concerned has failed all stages of the asylum process, and section 3(2)(i) of the Act, where the person concerned has otherwise become illegal in the State, such as where they have overstayed a work permit, a study or holiday visa or the like. It should also be borne in mind that all deportation orders, regardless of the specified headings they are made under, are equal in value, legally and operationally. For instance, a person who would be liable to deportation on the grounds of a prison sentence might also be liable to be deported as someone who has overstayed, and so the effect is the same.

The Deputy will appreciate that each case is considered on its individual merits having regard to the gravity of the offence committed as well as what, if any, other connection each individual has to the State. For example, if a non-EU national prisoner has a legal entitlement to be in the State as a recognised refugee or as a person who has availed of EU treaty rights through marriage to an Irish or EU national, they would clearly be less likely to be deported. Where a person has been here for some time and their children have settled here it would be necessary to consider very carefully the impact that deportation would have on the family unit. The mere fact that somebody is a foreign national and is sent to jail in Ireland would not justify me, on the basis of proportionality, putting that person out of the country on foot of a deportation order, if I came to the view that they were the breadwinner for children who are Irish citizens or if they were married to an Irish citizen or if there were other circumstances that would make it disproportionate to deport them.

My officials have identified a total of 662 non-EU national sentenced prisoners who were released from prison between 2001 and May 2006. Computerised records are not available for 2000. The figures I have included in the two tables cover the period from 2001 to 22 May 2006. For the Deputy's information, these figures have been broken down by reference to the nature of the offences in respect of which the persons concerned were convicted and subsequently imprisoned. It should be noted that in the case of prisoners who may have committed more than one offence, the more serious offence is shown.

In the context of the table, the category of "Other" includes persons convicted of public order and other relatively low-scale offences. The category of "Offences Against the Person" includes a case where a life was lost with manslaughter being the nature of the case in question. The person convicted of this manslaughter was subsequently deported. No cases of murder were involved.

Of the total of 662 persons included in these records, some 252 show up as having no resident status. This would suggest the persons concerned were either captured on official records under another alias or may be persons who had arrived illegally in the State and were never captured on official departmental records such as they might have been had they participated in the asylum, visa or work permit processes. It could also include short-term tourists who did not require a visa but committed an offence while in Ireland.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

Of the 252 persons shown as having no resident status, the vast majority of them are included in the less serious categories of offence and it would not have been necessary to deport them on completion of their term of imprisonment.

Table 2 provides an annualised picture of the non-EEA throughput from the prison system broken down by offence.

While the level of deportations as outlined in Table 1 is substantial, particularly with regard to certain offences, for example drugs offences, it does not follow that all other persons referred to on the list are still residing in the State. The reality is that many people leave the State on completion of their sentence. Except in the most serious cases, where it is clear a person is leaving the State and highly unlikely to return, deportation will not be necessary as removal is already achieved. The objective for the State is that the person leaves the territory and does not return. In effect, deportation is an instrument intended to remove persons from the State who would otherwise be likely either to remain or to attempt to return.

I have stated before that my Department and the Garda National Immigration Bureau have an ongoing information exchange with the Irish Prison Service through which medium my Department and the GNIB are made aware of the release dates of convicted non-EU national prisoners. This exchange has been in place for a number of years and was reviewed and further enhanced in May 2005 since which time lists of all non-EU prisoners due for release have been forwarded to the GNIB and considered for possible deportation. Details of the offences involved are also included, as are the nationalities of the prisoners in question. Based on this information, my Department provides information to the Irish Prison Service of the immigration status of the persons concerned and, where appropriate, prepares the paperwork necessary to have outstanding cases finalised, where possible, in advance of the planned release date.

Table 1

Breakdown of offence and status

Deported

Legally resident in the State

Position in the State under consideration

Evaded deportation

Without resident status

Total

Sex offences

5

4

3

2***

14

Drugs

56

3

13

6****

78

Firearms

1

1

Offences against the person*

18

13

12

3

18

64

Offences against property

35

25

36

10

66

172

Road offences**

10

53

19

2

69

153

Immigration

2

3

4

2

13

24

Other

23

30

20

5

78

156

150

127

108

25

252

662

*Includes one case of Manslaughter where the offender was deported.

**Includes one case of Dangerous Driving Causing Death where the offender is now an EU citizen.

***Both of these people are believed to have left the State.

****A significant number of these people are believed to have left the State upon release.

Table 2 - Breakdown of Release Date by Year

Type of offence/Year

2001

2002

2003

2004

2005

2006

Total

Sex offences

4

4

3

1

1

1

14

Drugs

12

4

14

18

19

11

78

Firearms

1

1

Offences against the person

7

9

15

15

15

3

64

Offences against property

23

28

43

39

30

9

172

Road offences

14

18

38

39

37

7

153

Immigration

1

11

3

2

7

24

Other

19

23

24

43

39

8

156

Total

80

86

148

158

143

47

662

I have raised the issue of the exercise, or perhaps more correctly the non-exercise, by the Tánaiste of a specific executive function bestowed on him by the Immigration Act 1999. As is clear from the question, I wish to know how many serious criminals, who should at least have been considered by him or his predecessor for deportation, having served a term of imprisonment, are roaming the countryside. The Tánaiste does not appear to know and the House does not know. The House cannot know as I raised the issue in a series of nine parliamentary questions before the recess and did not get the information. I am not getting the information now. Having failed to get it through the parliamentary process, I raised it by way of a freedom of information request. I was advised by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform that I would have a decision by 1 September.

Did it say which year?

The Tánaiste might confirm that in a moment. Finally last week I got six pages of a response to my parliamentary questions from the Tánaiste. However, they do not give replies to the questions I asked. No amount of evasion or obfuscation will get away from the basic point of what we seek here. I am looking for information relating to the exercise by the Tánaiste of a power conferred on him by the Immigration Act 1999. How many non-Irish nationals in each year up to 2005 were eligible to be considered for deportation pursuant to section (3)(2)(a) of the Act? How many of these non-Irish nationals were considered by him for deportation and how many, as of today, have been deported? That is the information I sought last April when I first tabled these questions and the information the Tánaiste has failed to furnish.

He has given me information on improvements in the system, on better liaison between different bodies under his aegis from the point of view of keeping track on such presence. The Tánaiste might like to comment on whether the improvement in such liaison occurred at approximately the same time as the departure from office of Charles Clarke as Home Secretary in the UK because of this very issue. One way or the other, I want to know how many such people roaming the countryside should have been considered for deportation, how many were considered and how many were deported. Despite all the obfuscation and evasion the Tánaiste has not yet furnished that information. I ask him to do so now.

Of course I noted that in a rather derivative way the Deputy thought that he could ask the same questions of me that Charles Clarke was asked as British Home Secretary leading to particular embarrassment for himself. However, the Deputy should have consulted the Statute Book and realised that a very different legal position pertained in Britain in that the Judiciary there could order deportation, whereas——

That is not the issue.

It is central to the issue.

It is of no relevance.

The Deputy should stop bluffing and shouting.

Will the Tánaiste answer the questions?

The Tánaiste without interruption.

It is central to the issue.

Did the Tánaiste do his job or not?

The Deputy should let me answer the question instead of just shouting. In Britain, the Judiciary is entitled to order deportations and it transpired that the Home Office was not following up on that. In Ireland, the Judiciary has no such power. It can make a recommendation——

—— which is an entirely different matter as the Deputy well knows. The Deputy asked for the number of non-EEA people who were prisoners at the relevant time. Some 662 people were convicted of offences of whom 150 have been deported, a further 127 have not been deported and are legally resident in the State, the situation of a further 108 is under consideration as to whether they will be deported, 25 evaded deportation when deportation was ordered against them and may not be in the State, and the other category to which I referred which relates to people who have no resident status and who may or may not be in the State and are probably not in the State amounts to 252.

Instead of attitudinising in a tabloid way on this matter he would be well advised to bear in mind that a non-EEA national mother of a family might have a conviction——

The Deputy should listen to the point; his obfuscation is pathetic. She might have a conviction in those circumstances.

I am not after shoplifters, as the Tánaiste knows.

Why does the Deputy keep shouting? He does not want to hear the truth.

I want to hear answers to my question.

I will try to answer it if the Deputy will stop shouting. The non-EEA national mother of a family with a conviction would be eligible for deportation and would fit into the figures I have supplied. However, it would be plainly wrong to deport or even consider deporting a person in those circumstances if her husband and children were law-abiding people legally resident in the State. Instead of trying to do a tired secondhand derivative piece of political grandstanding based on the Charles Clarke episode, which is based on different law in Britain, the Deputy would do better to study the table set out for him in the reply, come clean with the people and say there is a very significant rate of deportation of people who have served sentences in our prisons.

I ask Deputy O'Keeffe to be brief.

It is the Tánaiste's job to come clean and answer questions. It is his job not to be evasive nor obfuscate in his replies. I revert to the question I tabled six months ago. How many of these people were considered by him in each of those years for deportation? In respect of how many were deportation orders made? The Tánaiste has not yet answered the question. The real question is why he has not answered it. It is clear from the documentation I have received that no effective process was put in place by the Tánaiste for consideration by him of these issues up to last year.

I call the next question.

In that situation, the Tánaiste seems unable to tell us——

We have spent 15 minutes on this question.

——how many of these cases were considered by him, as it seems clear he did not consider these cases.

We must proceed to the next question.

Some very serious crimes have been committed by people who were sent to jail and were not considered by him, including a person involved in a very serious crime, who came before the Central Criminal Court in July.

The Deputy should finally sit down and let me answer his question. I have given the Deputy the figures and as he well knows, 662 people would have been eligible for deportation under the relevant section, 150 were deported, 127 were not deported and are legally resident in the State and 108 are under consideration. Therefore, 258 out of 662 have been considered or are being considered for deportation under the relevant provision.

The Deputy's party's focus groups may find some evidence for the proposition that being hard on migration makes good politics. However, I must make reasonable decisions about real-life situations.

I call the next question.

I must deal with the shoplifting mother who would be eligible for deportation under this provision.

I am not looking for deportations.

I call Question No. 130.

I make fair decisions.

How many cases?

If the Deputy would keep his eye on me and not on the Press Gallery——

The Chair has called Question No. 130.

——and if he would stop grandstanding on this issue——

The Tánaiste should answer the question I asked.

——he would understand that the law is effectively operated.

We will proceed to Question No. 130.

In addition liaison takes place between the Irish Prison Service, the GNIB and the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform——

The Tánaiste is covering up.

——which considers all of these cases.

The Tánaiste failed to do his job.

Irish Prison Service.

Brendan Howlin

Question:

130 Mr. Howlin asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his response to the most recent reports of the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention, Mr. Dermot Kinlen; the action being taken to address the serious shortcomings in conditions identified in the reports; if he has received the report of Mr. Michael Mellet into the death of a person (details supplied) on 1 August 2006; the main findings of the report; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [30829/06]

I presume the Deputy is referring to the fourth annual report of the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention and the report of the inspection of Cloverhill Prison, which were published by me in August 2006.

Are they the most recent reports?

They are the most recent reports.

Then they are the ones to which I refer.

The inspector's reports coincided with a period of profound change in the Prison Service, during which the decades long problem of dependency on excessive prison overtime was finally confronted and overcome. As the Deputy will be aware, a situation had developed in the Prison Service whereby the capital budget and every other budget within the system were being cannibalised to fund overtime expenditure. This reached a peak in 2003, when €60 million was spent on overtime, accounting for approximately 20% of the entire prison budget. In order to reverse this wholly unsustainable dependence on overtime, I put in place a number of measures, including major cutbacks in overtime expenditure and new attendance arrangements. These measures led to cuts, for necessary operational reasons, in services to prisoners in the period covered by the inspector's reports.

Following prolonged negotiations, the POA in August 2005 accepted a proposal to eliminate overtime work and introduce new organisational and working arrangements which will provide long-term savings to the Exchequer of up to €25 million per annum. These new arrangements will not only restore, but also enhance prisoner regimes in the years ahead, particularly in terms of improving access to services, increasing the availability of better facilities and making more productive use of out-of-cell time for prisoners. In this regard, much progress has been made over the past 12 months in improving educational and workshop facilities for prisoners.

In St. Patrick's Institution, the refurbishment of five workshops will lead to FETAC accreditation in metalwork, woodwork, computers, industrial cleaning and other industrial skills. The new workshops will give constructive activity to over 70 inmates and their roll-out is almost complete. The refurbishment of Cloverhill Education Centre has recently been completed. Classes have now commenced and courses are being rolled out on a phased basis. In short, the circumstances adverted to by the inspector arose because the overtime dispute reached a crisis, but huge improvements have since been made.

The fourth annual report of the inspector covers the period from April 2005 to April 2006 and deals with a wide range of issues including staffing levels, the establishment of an inspector of prisons on a statutory footing, prisoners' rights to vote, the privatisation of prisons, recidivism, drug addiction and prisoners with psychiatric illnesses. In respect of shortcomings in conditions, the inspector called in his report for the immediate closure of St. Patrick's Institution. The lack of modern facilities at that institution has been the subject of justified criticism not only by the Inspector of Prisons, but also by other oversight and monitoring bodies.

The Government shares the view that St. Patrick's Institution is no longer suitable as a place of detention for young people and that its complete replacement is required. The institution, together with other detention facilities on the Mountjoy Prison complex, will be closed as soon as planned new facilities are constructed on a greenfield site at Thornton Hall, County Dublin, where separate facilities will be available for 16 and 17 year old boys. The new campus will allow us to develop progressive rehabilitative programmes and enhanced educational facilities and introduce single occupancy cells with in-cell sanitation to end the practice of slopping out.

Additional information not given on the floor of House.

The development of the new prison campus will also provide the Prison Service with room for future expansion and ensure there will be no return to the revolving door of the mid-1990s, when the rainbow Government presided over a situation in which 20% of prisoners were on temporary release. By way of comparison, on 28 September 2006, there were 3,314 persons in the prison system, of whom 156, or 4.7%, were on temporary release. The reason for the significant reduction in the percentage of prisoners on temporary release between 1996 and 2006 is because the Government has provided some 1,100 net additional prison spaces since 1997. In addition, over 400 new places are being created at Shelton Abbey, Loughan House, Castlerea, Portlaoise and Wheatfield Prisons.

The inspector also calls for the elimination of drugs in prisons and the introduction of sniffer dogs in prisons such as Mountjoy. As the Deputy is aware, the elimination of drugs in our prisons is one of my key priorities. In order to achieve this, a drug detection dog was introduced into the prison system earlier this year. The service is based in the Midlands Prison and it is planned that trials will be carried out from that base. The initial phase is being used to test the effectiveness of drug dogs in prisons and to act as a learning exercise for the Prison Service to refine its precise approach in a wider deployment. The pilot has proved extremely successful to date and the dog has detected significant numbers of smuggling attempts. It is intended that the drug detection dog will be used in Mountjoy in the near future.

However, drug detection dogs are just one of a much wider range of measures contained in the new Prison Service drugs policy and strategy, which I launched earlier this year. The new policy and strategy provides, for the first time, a co-ordinated and consistent national approach to dealing with the thorny problem of supply of drugs, as well as ensuring appropriate treatment is available to prisoners to help them conquer their addictions. The policy is currently being rolled out across the prison system. The new replacement Mountjoy and Munster prison complexes will be constructed with an extensive perimeter to prevent drugs being thrown over the wall and will thus facilitate drug-free regimes.

In terms of prisoners with psychiatric illnesses, the inspector expressed concern regarding the treatment of mentally ill prisoners and prisoners with personality disorders and recommended the Department of Health and Children should take responsibility for such prisoners. The Irish Prison Service is committed to health care standards comparable to those obtaining in the wider community. Prisoners have access to medical, nursing, psychiatric and psychological services within the prison system and the psychiatric needs of prisoners are served by visiting psychiatrists. The psychiatric service of the eastern coast area health board at the Central Mental Hospital, Dundrum, which is under the management of the HSE and the Department of Health and Children, provides regular weekly counselling and treatment sessions at Dublin prisons. In other locations, services are provided by local psychiatrists.

Offenders who, in the opinion of the psychiatrist and the prison doctor, are in need of inpatient psychiatric treatment may be transferred by order to either the Central Mental Hospital or a district mental hospital. However, the Central Mental Hospital is the only psychiatric inpatient hospital that will accept prisoners. Due to increased demand on this facility in recent years, it has frequently been the situation that waiting lists build up for admission, requiring priority to be based on clinical need. This situation arises despite the general agreement regarding the necessity for admission and, while awaiting a bed to become available, the prison authorities may be left with no alternative but to seek to manage a disturbed individual in conditions which provide the greatest degree of protection for the individual, other prisoners and staff. My Department and the Prison Service is continually engaged with the Department of Health and Children and the HSE in a process aimed at co-ordinating the provision of health care to prisoners.

I have honoured my commitment to abolish the use of old-style padded cells by introducing newly designed and improved cells. Special observation cells are not used for routine reasons but only in cases where prisoners are in a highly agitated state and at risk of harming themselves or others. No mentally ill prisoner awaiting a move to the Central Mental Hospital is detained in a special cell unless this is unavoidable. Such a practice is not commonplace but takes place only where the safety of prisoners require it.

I have appointed Mr. Mellet to carry out an independent inquiry into the circumstances surrounding the tragic death of Mr. Gary Douch while in custody in Mountjoy Prison, which will establish what action was taken by the Prison Service, management and staff to safeguard Mr. Douch; to clarify whether Mr. Douch had expressed special concerns about his safety; to establish what procedures were followed and their adequacy; to establish the procedures used to allocate prisoners to the cell in which Mr. Douch died; to establish the level of monitoring during the night of 31 July to 1 August 2006; and to make any observations and recommendations Mr. Mellet sees fit. I intend that the report by Mr. Mellet will be published in due course, with the exception of any parts which could be deemed prejudicial to potential criminal proceedings.

I have not received yet Mr. Mellet's report. He has, however, already made a valuable interim recommendation that, where a prisoner seeks specific protection because of an alleged threat from another prisoner and the prison authorities accept there may be some substance to the allegation, the prisoner should be removed to a single occupancy cell or room for at least 24 hours while the case is assessed. This recommendation has been accepted by me and was implemented immediately by the prison authorities.

I congratulate the Minister on his first occasion to take parliamentary questions in his new office and wish him well for however long he occupies that important position.

Does the Minister accept he made an extraordinary admission when he said the conditions outlined in the Kinlen report were allowed to happen because budgets were being cannibalised to pay for overtime? As Minister, he allowed a situation to arise where, for example, parts of Mountjoy were being sprayed twice a week to keep mice and cockroaches at bay. Overcrowding was such that an individual who asked for protection was brutally murdered after being put in a cell with six other prisoners, including one who had recently arrived from the Central Mental Hospital.

The violence in Mountjoy over the summer, which included two deaths in 12 hours and four stabbings in three weeks, was allowed to take place. Does the Minister think it is acceptable to tell the House that he has resolved an overtime issue and, therefore, the horror stories which had been laid out in graphic and unimaginable terms in the Kinlen report were allowed because budgets were being cannibalised?

Has the Minister received the findings of the independent inquiry by former senior official, Mr. Michael Mellet, into the dreadful murder of Gary Douch and what are the main recommendations contained therein?

I thank Deputy Howlin for his kind words of congratulation. The remainder of my answer to his question, which I was unable to read on the floor of the House, addressed the issues raised by the Deputy. However, as the answer has been put on the record, I will give the Deputy only a summary of its contents.

I agree that the death of Gary Douch was an appalling event and the circumstances in which he died are not defensible. For that reason, I asked Mr. Michael Mellet, who was secretary to the International Monitoring Commission and a former Secretary General in my Department, to compile a full report. He is currently examining a number of issues, while awaiting the pathologist's report and information on the decisions made in the Central Mental Hospital which resulted in the transfer of the apparent assailant to the prison system subsequent to his committal to the hospital. These issues are of the utmost gravity and ones which I regard as requiring a substantial explanation. I will take appropriate action to ensure that such events never recur.

It had been my understanding that holding cells were used to hold prisoners on committal from courts when there was insufficient time to process them. One of the immediate steps taken was to appoint the Midlands, Cork and Wheatfield Prisons as committal prisons in addition to Mountjoy. The purpose of that change was to reduce the pressure on Mountjoy but, as it turns out, a number of people in that holding cell appeared not to have come from the court system and should not have been in those circumstances. In my view, there is no excuse for keeping them in those circumstances. The holding cells in question have been closed and are being converted to other uses. The number of prisoners in Mountjoy has been reduced and two areas which had previously been mothballed, A2 and A3, are being brought back into service.

I was shown a haul of weapons, including some brutal implements, which were recently found in Mountjoy after a search arising from one of the incidents in question. These weapons are regularly catapulted into the exercise yards, with the result that new fencing and other arrangements are being put in place to prevent the smuggling of drugs and weapons. New screening provisions are being introduced for prisoners.

However, the Deputy, the Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention and I are correct in calling for the closure and replacement of Mountjoy. It is an unsuitable prison and is incapable of acting as a place of rehabilitation and detention for sentenced persons. That is why the replacement of the Mountjoy complex is a priority for me and I will go ahead with that project.

I welcome the belated acceptance by the Minister that the conditions in Mountjoy remain appalling. He indicated he has not yet received a copy of Mr. Mellet's report. Presumably, inmates continue to arrive at Mountjoy, including some with mental health difficulties. What particular steps have been taken by the Minister since the murder of Gary Douch with regard to enforcement or renewal of protocols to deal with prisoners who have psychiatric problems, are dangerous or are sick? What has the Minister done since the appalling death of Gary Douch to ensure prisoners are never again put at that type of risk? Is he satisfied that mentally ill people are incarcerated in the normal prison system? What is he doing to ensure that appropriate treatment is given to people who are inappropriately incarcerated at present?

With regard to mentally ill people, when I was appointed Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform there was a system of using padded cells. These cells were so appalling to even the most casual and inexperienced visitor as to require their immediate replacement. I have got rid of the padded cells and have replaced them with modern state-of-the-art observation cells, where people are held in humane circumstances. They were not being held in humane circumstances in padded cells.

Should they be in prison at all?

The Deputy asked what has happened since the death of Gary Douch. Mr. Mellet reported to me on an interim basis within days of his appointment that no prisoner who sought protection should be put in those circumstances. The practice was immediately prohibited within the Prison Service by way of an interim recommendation from Mr. Mellet.

With regard to psychiatrically ill prisoners, what is happening at present is wholly inadequate. The relationship between the Prison Service and the Central Mental Hospital is inadequate and, in some respects, indefensible. The Central Mental Hospital should act as a forensic psychiatric institution to serve people who need hospital treatment for psychiatric conditions and who are committed to the State's custody. It should not be the case, as has occurred in the past, that some people are returned to the Prison Service from Dundrum on the basis that they are too difficult to handle. That is an extraordinary state of affairs.

Is it still the state of affairs?

It has happened in the relatively recent past. That is not acceptable. If somebody is a danger to himself or others, the Central Mental Hospital must be organised on the basis that it can adequately deal with such a person. It must have sufficient rooms to accommodate all the people who are properly committed by prison doctors to that hospital for treatment, where they can be humanely and decently dealt with.

That is why I am determined to have the Dundrum complex, which is old and out of date, replaced by a modern, forensic psychiatric institution in close proximity to the new prison campus at Thornton. It is not acceptable that psychiatrically ill prisoners are shuttled between two institutions——

It is happening today.

——on the basis of committals and releases which are difficult to defend. The United Nations Committee Against Torture has visited this country and will examine this problem.

What will the Minister do between now and the building of the prison?

My Department is in urgent consultation with the Central Mental Hospital about these matters. The director general of the Prison Service will go to the Central Mental Hospital on Thursday to see what the problems are and how they can be overcome.

Inspector of Prisons.

Ciarán Cuffe

Question:

131 Mr. Cuffe asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform the steps he has taken to place the Office of the Inspector of Prisons on a statutory footing; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [31021/06]

In 2002, the then Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, established the Office of Inspector of Prisons and Places of Detention on a non-statutory basis. In 2005, I examined the possibility of providing a statutory basis for the office by means of a statutory instrument, namely, to provide for the office in the prison rules which are at an advanced stage of preparation and are on the Department's website. However, after consultation with the Attorney General, I came to the conclusion that there should be provision for such an office in primary legislation.

In July this year, the Government approved my proposal to establish an Office of Inspector of Prisons on a statutory basis. I will introduce an appropriate statutory provision by means of an amendment to the Prisons Bill 2005, which is before the Seanad at present. I hope that the Bill, as amended, will be enacted before Christmas of this year so the statutory office can be established in 2007.

I wish the Minister well in his position as Tánaiste. He has been Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform for four years and four months but we have yet to see legislation to put the office of prison inspector on a statutory basis. All I have seen is media speculation. If the will was there, the Minister could have moved more quickly on this. Is he giving a commitment that an independent inspectorate will be put in place before Christmas? Will he make the same mistake that he made with the Garda Ombudsman Commission, whereby the staff will not be independent but will be seconded from the Garda Síochána? Does the Minister not agree it is crucial that the prison inspectorate is completely independent of the Department and the Prison Service?

The Minister appears to be more interested in Ceaucescu-like projects for super prisons in north Dublin than in systematic reform of the prison system and how it works. The test of any society is not how it treats the most well-off but how it treats its most wretched citizens. In three reports the Committee for the Prevention of Torture has urged the Minister to provide an independent inspectorate. We had an independent prison inspectorate 180 years ago in the 1820s. When will the Minister move on this? Will the proposed inspectorate be truly independent so it can give testimony to actual conditions in the prisons without fear or favour?

The Prisons Bill is before the Seanad and if the Deputy consults the proceedings of that House, he can confirm that. The decision was made in July this year to provide in that Bill for a statutory basis for the inspector's job. The amendments will be put down shortly in the Seanad and the Deputy will have an opportunity to debate them in this House and in the justice committee before Christmas.

The inspector is most certainly independent. Any reader of his reports will know they are not written by me or to please me or at my dictation——

The Minister has delayed their publication.

——or that he is in any sense circumscribed——

He said the Minister was outrageous and practically unbelievable.

I am trying to answer the Deputy's priority question. I will deal with Deputy Howlin later.

That is something to look forward to.

I defy anybody to claim the inspector is not independent. The Deputy made a throw-away remark that the staff of the Garda Ombudsman Commission are not independent. That is wholly untrue. They are not seconded members of the Garda Síochána. The commission is currently recruiting its staff and it is not, in any sense, lacking independence. It is just as independent as Nuala O'Loan is in Northern Ireland. The commission is recruiting its staff independently of me and will have a wholly independent structure. It will not be dictated to by my Department.

The former judge, Dermot Kinlen, is an independent man. He has access to prisons. I intend to provide for a statutory basis for the Office of Inspector of Prisons. I do not agree with everything in his reports, and readers of the reports could not conclude that he is dependent on or beholden to me or is trammelled in what he says and does by any consideration of a lack of independence from me.

My recollection is that the Bill providing for the Garda Ombudsman Commission allows staff to be seconded from the Garda Síochána. That has the potential to severely compromise it in carrying out its duties. I accept the inspector of prisons is independent but his report goes to the Minister. Its publication has been delayed by the Minister's Department, so it is not truly independent. I accept that the tone and tenor of some of the remarks in his reports would suggest he is completely independent but I wonder what he would say if he was completely independent given that he described the Minister as outrageous and with Fascist tendencies in his reports which were scrutinised by the Minister before publication.

To be deadly serious, under the Minister's watch, prison programmes, such as the CONNECT programme and programmes which address recidivism, illiteracy and addiction, have been severely cut. Can the Minister give a commitment that a prisons inspectorate will be completely independent, will be able to publish its own reports and will be able to reveal what actually goes on inside our prisons without having to have its reports vetted by the Minister prior to publication?

It was not a question of me vetting the report but of me reading it and seeing a number of passages in it which I concluded might be defamatory. I submitted them to counsel to decide whether they were publishable by me without risk of me being sued. I was advised by counsel and the Attorney General that I could not publish the report in the form in which it was. I asked that the passages be deleted from the report. The inspector and I eventually agreed on a process whereby the report would be published without those provisions. I did not want to edit him and I sent the report back to him. He is a senior counsel and a judge and I thought he would be in a position to render it publishable without risk of defamation but, in the end, it fell to somebody else to carry that out.

The reports, in so far as it is lawful to publish them, will be and have been published. If I was in the slightest way given to censorship of what was in the reports, all the remarks to which Deputy Howlin and Deputy Cuffe referred, would not appear. Therefore, it cannot be said that I have attempted to censor them in any way, nor would I do so.

The Deputies will appreciate that the Prison Service now has considerably increased accommodation compared with the situation in 1997. All the rehabilitative facilities and programmes were under massive threat as long as the prison budget was being cannibalised by overtime. I tackled that situation, and I am the first Minister for Justice in 20 or 30 years to do so. There is now a sound financial basis in the Prison Service to improve and sustain all those services.

Prison Accommodation.

Jim O'Keeffe

Question:

132 Mr. J. O’Keeffe asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on whether there is currently inadequate prison capacity in the State due to the closure of a number of prisons; if he has proposals to deal with the present crisis; and the reason he paid at least €15 million too much for the Thornton Hall farm. [30828/06]

On 28 September 2006 there were 3,158 persons in prison custody as compared with a bed capacity of 3,383. This represents an occupancy level of 93%. It is my view, supported by these figures, that there is no overcrowding crisis or immediate issue relating to the capacity of the prison system. There is, however, a need to upgrade existing prison accommodation and to plan for the future and I am advancing a number of projects at present to that end.

This Government, which took office in July 1997, inherited a prison system virtually in a state of collapse. In mid-term the outgoing Government in an infamous decision had actually cancelled planned building projects at Castlerea and the women's prison at Mountjoy. The situation was so bad that the revolving door syndrome was in danger of forever discrediting the entire Irish criminal justice process. Furthermore, nothing had been done to even plan to refurbish Mountjoy Prison, which was even then in a deplorable state.

To illustrate the scale of the problem we inherited, the proportion of prisoners on temporary release on 9 December 1996 stood at 552, a figure equating to 20% of the total prison population. This compares with a current figure of 156 persons, or under 5% of the prison population. The actual number of prisoners in custody on 9 December 1996 stood at 2,230 with a bed capacity for 2,251, an occupancy level of 99%. Mountjoy Prison had 640 prisoners within its walls which is a figure 40% higher than the current population of 454.

The Deputy should be aware of the provision of approximately 1,300 new prison spaces in recent years at considerable cost, which has put the Irish Prison Service in a much better position to accommodate prisoners for the duration of their sentences than was the case in the mid-1990s. This programme has resulted in the building of new prisons such as Cloverhill, Castlerea, the Midlands and the new women's prison at Mountjoy alongside additional accommodation in Limerick and Loughan House. Further accommodation is at an advanced stage of construction at Portlaoise Prison, Casterea Prison, Loughan House and Shelton Abbey and new prison estates are being planned for Thornton Hall and Spike Island.

It is a bit much for the Deputy to ask about a current overcrowding problem and a crisis within the prison system when the Government he supported in 1997 left the system in a state. In regard to Fort Mitchel and the Curragh, the number of spaces provided in the lifetime of this Government far outweighs the number of places lost at that point.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

I also refer the Deputy to my response to his colleague, Deputy Durkan, in Question No. 167 answered on 5 May 2004 in which I advised that:

any shortage of prison spaces is not as a direct result of the forced mothballing of the places of detention at Fort Mitchel and the Curragh. Overall these two institutions had a capacity of 204 spaces (102 each). The recent opening of a new wing in Limerick Prison has fully offset the loss of Fort Mitchel. The lost capacity in the case of the Curragh Place of Detention, has been approximately 80% offset by the bringing into operation of previously unused spaces in the Midlands Prison.

It is therefore disingenuous to assert that the closing of these places of detention has in some way contributed to an overcrowding crisis. Suggestions to this effect are completely misleading and irresponsible.

Nevertheless, I accept that a number of our prisons remain in a poor state, particularly Mountjoy and Cork prisons. This is being remedied by constructing new campuses in Dublin and Munster. The new facilities will, in addition, offer significant improvements in the areas of work training, education and medical services as well as providing predominantly single cell accommodation with in-cell sanitation facilities. These are major undertakings involving replacement of close to 40% of the entire prison estate.

The Deputy seems to be suggesting that the €29.9 million paid for the 150 acres at Thornton is €15 million too much. Is this the same Deputy who was reported by The Irish Times in July 2005 as saying that a five acre plot of land in the same townland at Thornton Hall itself but not purchased by the State, is worth €1 million an acre?

I am quite satisfied that the purchase of 150 acres of land at Thornton for approximately €200,000 an acre was an excellent long-term investment for the State and is not out of line with prices being paid by private developers. This view is not only supported by experts employed by the State but also by independent sources. A local auctioneer interviewed by RTE Radio 1 stated that he had disposed of land for between €125,000 and €175,000 an acre and that he doubted if anyone could identify a parcel of 150 acres of land within ten miles of O'Connell Street for less than €30 million. One can still obtain some parcels of land in north county Dublin on the scale envisaged at Thornton for a cheaper price but not land suitable for a prison.

The Comptroller and Auditor General in his 2005 report suggests that if a less open, third party approach was used it might have been possible to acquire suitable land at a lower price. That it his view, however, my Department's Secretary General, the Accounting Officer, had, for good reasons extreme reservations about using a covert and secret third party approach to purchasing land for this project. I shared his reservations in this regard. The Accounting Officer had administrative oversight of the acquisition process throughout, put in place in respect of the purchase of Thornton. He looks forward to further clarifying the matter when he gives evidence before the forthcoming meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts on this topic.

Is the Minister living in a different world from the rest of us? Was he around during the month of August when there were dreadful happenings in our prisons? Was he even aware of the appalling overcrowding in Mountjoy or of the spate of assaults, stabbings and so on resulting from it? Was he aware a prisoner was killed in that prison largely as a result of the overcrowding because his request for help could not be accommodated?

Is the Minister not aware that a major contribution to the overcrowding problem is that he took a number of prisons and institutions out of commission without providing immediate alternative accommodation? I refer to Spike Island, the Curragh and, if I recollect correctly, Shanganagh. Does he not realise that the crisis which developed in our prisons resulted largely from overcrowding and that anybody to whom one talks in the Irish Prison Service will confirm that? During whatever time is left to him in office, does he have plans to relieve that overcrowding?

I refer to the long-term plans in regard to the Thornton Hall farm which, at €200,000 per acre, is labelled the dearest farm in Europe. Is the Minister not in any way concerned that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report is a shocking confirmation of the Minister's spendthrift approach as far as taxpayers' money is concerned? There is no planning and zoning for the farm, the agricultural value of which is probably €4 million or €5 million. The Comptroller and Auditor General gives the Minister some solace by saying it could be worth €15 million because of hope value, yet he paid €30 million for it with €15 million of taxpayers' money wasted. He is the leader of a party which, at one stage, prided itself on having some care and concern about taxpayers' money. Does he have an answer to that accusation in light of the independent criticism of the Comptroller and Auditor General?

On the Deputy's first question, I do not know if he was having a quiet snooze but I dealt with the deaths and weapons in Mountjoy and all the issues approximately five minutes ago.

I would like to make a couple of points about Thornton Hall. The Deputy will be aware that the Committee of Public Accounts will examine that issue this month. I am confident the Accounting Officer of my Department, the Secretary General, Mr. Sean Aylward, will go before that committee and will fully establish a few simple propositions. First, the land is of the value spent on it.

I would not like to try to sell it.

Second, nobody is in a position to point to any land suitable for a prison at that distance from or nearer to the city of Dublin which has sold or changed hands for a lesser price. Third, the Comptroller and Auditor General did not say €15 million was wasted. He said — let us be clear about it — that if I had agreed to secretly buy the land and not disclose the purpose for which I was purchasing it, to wait for an auction to take place and to spring this on some community without giving any consideration to what land was available and if I was to do a furtive purchase in those circumstances, I could have bought land in north Dublin for €100,000.

The Minister slipped it through overnight.

That is what he said. The Deputy will appreciate that what happened was that the Accounting Officer of my Department came to the conclusion that it would be ethically wrong to send people out to farms that became available without having a fully transparent, advertised process seeking appropriate land for the purpose.

The deal was done.

All of these matters will be thrashed out before the Committee of Public Accounts. I am confident that the decisions made by the committee in question, which was composed of senior public servants, including one of the commissioners of the Office of Public Works, on the basis of an approach which was devised by the Accounting Officer of my Department, will stand up to any scrutiny. I again finish with this question; can anybody show me any land the same or a lesser distance as Thornton Hall from O'Connell Bridge, which has changed hands for less than €200,000 per acre in the past two years? One will not find it because it has not happened.

The Minister put up the price.

Is it the case again that everybody is out of step but the Minister? Does everybody not agree that it was a disgraceful waste of public money? Does everybody not also agree with the headline in The Irish Times that it was an expensive blunder? The Minister referred to consultation. There was no consultation. Does the Minister not accept that this farm did not emerge from the original process and that the entire transaction was slipped through almost in the dark of night, that it took place in a matter of seven days, that there was no local public consultation and that in regard to comparative values, a farm within a couple of kilometres of the farm in question was sold two months later for €26,000 an acre, which would have been far more suitable for a prison?

The Minister spent €30 million of taxpayers' money and he still tries to justify it. Does the Minister not accept that if somebody were starting a sweetshop he would not put him in as manager because his business expertise——

What I would say to the Deputy——

——leads him to buy the most expensive farm in Europe?

No land which was suitable for a prison was sold for the prices in question closer to or the same distance from the city of Dublin. The second matter about which I remind Deputy O'Keeffe relates to his own auctioneering tendencies. It is interesting to note that in July 2005 he stated that five acres of the Thornton Hall farm which was kept back by the vendor was worth €1 million per acre and he gave out to me for missing that opportunity.

That was the only part of the land which was zoned.

The Minister is being disingenuous.

Order, please. I call Question No. 133.

Does the Minister not know——

The Chair has called Question No. 133.

——that the five acres to which I referred was included in the original sale and was the only part that had zoning, and to complete the bad deal——

The Chair has called the next question.

——was excluded from the sale at the last moment?

The Minister did not get that either.

The Minister did not get the five acres with zoning. He is some óinseach to send out.

He will not be sent again.

Not alone would I not put the Minister in charge of a sweet shop, I would not send him out to buy a bag of sweets.

The Chair has called the next question.

The Deputy is awake now. It is a curious fact that he thinks five acres out of the 160 acres of the original land parcel were worth €5 million when two minutes ago he stated——

Does the Minister know anything about zoning and planning?

The Minister would be a great man in the Wild West.

We must move on to Question No. 133.

Prison Building Programme.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Question:

133 Aengus Ó Snodaigh asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform his views on the Comptroller and Auditor General’s annual report for 2005 published on 27 September 2006 which concluded in respect of the purchase of the site at Thornton Hall by his Department that there were inconsistencies between the site selection committee’s evaluations of various sites, that neither comprehensive site surveys nor comprehensive costings on the work that would be necessary to make the site suitable for a prison were conducted prior to the purchase offer being made; that well-positioned agricultural land with development potential could have been purchased for a fraction of the price; that the value of obtaining enlarged acreage was questionable; and that had a compulsory purchase order been used instead it would have allowed the State to purchase a site for a lesser amount. [30791/06]

The issue of the acquisition of a prison site at Thornton Hall was included in the 2005 report of the Comptroller and Auditor General at the request of the Committee of Public Accounts and will be examined by it in October. The relevant officials from my Department will be present to account in detail to the Committee of Public Accounts on all the issues raised by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

The Committee of Public Accounts is the proper forum to address these matters and I am reluctant to show any lack of respect to that committee by trying to anticipate or pre-empt its examination. However, I have to note that the Comptroller and Auditor General does not state that too much was paid for Thornton Hall. Rather, to quote his main conclusion, he states that "a well-managed, third party approach might have allowed the Prison Service to procure suitable land at a much lower price than was paid for the land at Thornton".

Let us be clear that in this context a "third party approach" means that a site would be acquired in secret. No one would be told that the State was involved or that land was being sought for the most significant penal development in the history of the State. There would have been no public advertisement, no information given in Dáil answers and a very restricted assessment process.

The Accounting Officer of my Department has already gone on record stating that in the light of the nature of this particular project and to ensure proper accountability, a deliberate and principled decision was taken not to use a third party, furtive, acquire by stealth approach. The strategic, moral and practical reasons for that decision are outlined in the report and have not been contradicted by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

While there is a passing reference to compulsory purchase order mechanisms in the report, the Comptroller and Auditor General is aware that there is no provision for the acquisition of a prison site like Thornton Hall by compulsory purchase order. I do not have the power to look at a map, say that site would suit and go to the present occupant of it and ask him or her to hand over his or her property to me.

The report does state that there are some "apparent" inconsistencies in the evaluations of the site. That issue and issues relating to surveys, costing and site size will be fully addressed by the relevant officials at the Committee of Public Accounts. However, I can say at this point that my Department's Accounting Officer is satisfied that it would not have been possible to obtain a site as suitable as Thornton Hall for any less than was paid. The information available to me is that no site of comparable quality and suitability closer to Dublin has changed hands in recent times for less per acre than was paid for the Thornton Hall site.

I am still of the belief that this deal stinks to high heaven. I asked questions at the time and I will continue to ask them. It is strange that we will deal with the issue at the Committee of Public Accounts, but that is after the fact, and that when these questions first arose the deal had not been completed.

Is the Minister aware that the propaganda document which his Department issued entitled, New Dublin Prison Complex, The Right Decision?, states that each site was assessed on the basis of a marking matrix addressing all the essential criteria and on the basis of this objective marking system, the least expensive, most suitable site was selected? Is the Minister further aware that the Comptroller and Auditor's General's report stated that the committee did not record the basis on which the scores were awarded to individual sites under the various criteria and the marks awarded by the site selection committee appeared to be inconsistent?

Does the Minister agree that the Comptroller and Auditor General's report stated that the site selection committee dropped the criteria after receiving a letter from the director general of the Prison Service in September 2004 and that from then on the matter of cost was not a consideration? How does the Minister reconcile the assertion contained in his document with the facts established by the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Is the Minister aware that his document states that at less than €200,000 per acre the site at Thornton Hall represents good value while the Comptroller and Auditor General found that the purchase did not represent good value? We have already gone through those points. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated that the price paid for the site at Thornton was likely to have been at least twice the market value at the time for well positioned agricultural land with development potential in the target area. Is the Minister aware of a trawl of similar sites in the near vicinity, one of which was sold in March of last year for €26,000 per acre but a number of those other sites which were being considered by the committee had a lesser price tag? How does all of this square up other than to give rise to major questions about the purchase of this site and the dodgy deal that appears to have been done in the last days of that committee despite the fact that this site was not part of the original tendering process, appeared out of nowhere and then was given the significant amounts mentioned by the Minister?

I reject the suggestions that this was a dodgy deal and stinks in any way and that the committee, comprising senior public servants, acted improperly. It is unworthy to suggest that about them without knowing any of the basic facts.

This acquisition will be fully investigated by the Committee of Public Accounts. The Accounting Officer and Secretary General of my Department, the director general of the Prison Service and the Commissioner of Public Works, who was involved in the acquisition, will fully defend their actions and will not be found to have been wanting. At one stage, the valuers who advised the Comptroller and Auditor General in his study came up with a comparator of agricultural land, but there was a "minor" problem in that it was located in Ardee, County Louth. This was one of the comparators used in their analysis of the situation.

I stand by the material that I have put into the public domain and the integrity of the officials who purchased the property. If I had gone to auctions, pretended not to be the State purchasing land for a prison and operated by stealth, Deputies would have been the first to ask why I did not advertise for suitable spaces or ask the landowners of north County Dublin whether there were more suitable places than the land bought.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh referred to a number of other properties considered by the committee, but he should know that some of them which were further from Dublin and had been zoned as agricultural have sold for more than €200,000 per acre. The closest adjacent property considered by the committee, which was adjacent to the motorway, would only have been available at a significantly higher price.

If anyone can point to a parcel of 150 acres that distance from O'Connell Street which has changed hands for less than €200,000 per acre in recent years, please do so. No one has come up with such an example.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

A farm of 236 acres went at auction in March of last year.

(Interruptions).

That is further from Dublin.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh can ask a brief supplementary question.

Is the Minister aware that his document quotes prices per acre of €50,000, €70,000 and €175,000, all of which were considered and all but one of which are within the distance stated?

This is the Minister's document. He should examine a map.

They are not within the distance.

At one point on the map is the property considered for €50,000. This is the Minister's propaganda, but it is a pity he does not read it.

We had a €26 million budget.

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