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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 2007

Vol. 637 No. 3

Ministers and Secretaries (Ministers of State) Bill 2007: Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

There is a major need for radical Dáil reform. I suggest that if that does not happen in the next couple of years the Taoiseach, if for no other reason than to preserve the sanity of the remaining backbenchers in the Fianna Fáil Party, will have no choice but to introduce yet another Bill providing for possibly an additional ten Ministers of State to be appointed to the existing Departments. We need to tackle the manner in which this House operates and the fact that the ability of Deputies to act as legislators is curtailed. If we do not soon introduce major reforms of this House, public cynicism about the way we work and the level of disinterest in politics will increase and as a result fewer people will vote at the next election.

A rather strange crowd is assembled at the back of the Chamber.

Deputy Ó Caoláin without interruption.

Unlike other Opposition parties, Sinn Féin Deputies will not oppose this legislation. There are genuine concerns that the creation of additional Ministers of State may be for the purpose of rewarding political colleagues. However, in looking at the list of junior ministerial positions, Sinn Féin is not so much concerned about numbers. For us, the key question is whether these positions allow for necessary additional focus on vital areas of public policy. We are, therefore, taking an open-minded position on the increased numbers of Ministers of State and are not prepared simply to oppose it for opposition's sake.

For example, we welcome the fact that the drugs portfolio and the housing portfolio each has a full junior Minister looking after what are important areas of social policy. We have long argued that these two portfolios needed a stronger focus and this arrangement should allow for such an approach. Given that it is the start of the new Dáil, I express the hope that the creation of the position of Minister of State with responsibility for housing, urban renewal and developing areas will concentrate the minds of the Government on the need for a real housing policy with a proactive role for the State and local authorities. For the past decade the Government has abdicated its responsibility to provide social and affordable housing and has abandoned to market forces this key area of public need. All around us we see the dire consequences, in terms of bad planning, substandard housing and prices spiralling way beyond the means of many thousands of people seeking a home.

We are disappointed by the fact that the Minister of State with responsibility for drugs strategy and community affairs is linked only to the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs. We believe that a cross-departmental approach, including the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs and the Departments of Health and Children and Justice, Equality and Law Reform, is necessary for the development and implementation of a cohesive drugs strategy. We believe the threat to our society posed by drugs warrants such an approach and we call for it to be adopted. I would welcome the Minister giving a positive indication in that regard in his closing remarks to this debate.

I welcome the appointment of Deputy Brendan Smith, my constituency colleague, to the position of Minister of State at the Department of Health and Children, with responsibility for children. This is an important post, with much progress needed in areas such as child care, children's health, special needs and tackling educational and economic disadvantage. I wish the Deputy well in his new portfolio responsibility. As Sinn Féin's spokesperson on health and children, I will be carefully following the progress that he will record across all the key areas that impact on the needs and well-being of our children.

I welcome the new position of Minister of State with responsibility for integration policy, who has a cross-departmental portfolio similar to the position Sinn Féin advocates for the drugs portfolio. Perhaps the Minister of State, Deputy Noel Ahern, will again note the point I have made. If it can apply in this instance, surely it should apply in the other instance. It makes best sense. We will be watching the performance of the Minister of State, Deputy Conor Lenihan, in his new role. He can be assured of that.

I welcome the appointment of a Minister of State with responsibility for services for older people and I congratulate Deputy Máire Hoctor on her elevation to the junior ministerial ranks. We in Sinn Féin advocated the creation of this post in line with the campaigning case put forward by Age Action and other senior citizen lobby groups. There is a need for more clarity and more concentration on the implementation of the national disability strategy. Sinn Féin proposed that this would be a function of the Department of the Taoiseach, with a dedicated unit in that Department with cross-departmental responsibility. The Government has appointed a Minister of State with responsibility for disability and mental health under the aegis of the Minister for Health and Children. I extend good wishes to Deputy Jimmy Devins in his first ministerial brief. Disability is primarily an equality issue rather than a health issue. Nonetheless, we hope that the full implementation of the national disability strategy, with yearly targets, will be pursued vigorously by the new Minister of State.

We are concerned that tackling educational disadvantage has been dropped from the title of the Minister of State at the Department of Education and Science. We hope that this is not a signal that the incoming Government will put less emphasis on tackling educational disadvantage. There needs to be clear responsibility and a clear determination to make progress in this vital area.

However these posts pan out in practice, we will all monitor each of them carefully and Sinn Féin will present keen and focused opposition throughout the term before us. Non-governmental organisations and campaigning groups across a whole spectrum of interests will welcome the designation of their focus, their issues and their needs to a stand-alone portfolio holder. This has long been a demand of many groups and organisations whose expertise and recommendations should be acknowledged, appreciated and acted upon. These new Ministers of State and their streamlined senior Ministries have a real opportunity to make a critical difference in the lives of many people, including people with disabilities, drugs issues and housing needs, older people and children. On behalf of the Sinn Féin Deputies — this is something they will not always hear from an Opposition party or group of voices — I wish all the new Ministers of State a fair wind, but I caution them not to disappoint.

I congratulate the nominees for the ministerial offices. I had a few remarks to make, but it is difficult to make them in just one minute. The appointments are obviously dictated by pressure for promotion rather than any real policy need. That is fair enough in present circumstances. Some years ago, there were many part-timers in the Dáil who pursued their own profession for the best part of the week. We have full-time politicians now and there needs to be a career path for politicians in the Government and in the Opposition. The committees are not fulfilling that role at the moment. There must be a better balance between the Executive and the Parliament, but we do not have a tradition of the powerful committees that might stand up to the Executive, as happens in other parliaments. I will have an opportunity to develop these thoughts in future.

I can give the Minister of State one minute as I am obliged to put the question at 9 p.m.

I thank the Members for their wide-ranging comments and thank Deputy Ó Caoláin for his support. Fundamentally, the Bill is about increasing the number of Ministers of State from 17 to 20.

Deputy Bruton stated it would cost €4 million and I do not know how he arrived at that. The cost of a Minister of State, depending on the number of years' service, is probably between €40,000 and €50,000, and if one takes account of the daily allowance which Ministers of State do not receive, there is probably very little in it. If one includes a full complement of staff, one might come up with a figure of over €1 million, provided one included press advisers and all those other sorts of advisers of which I heard Deputies speak, which in my five years as a Minister of State I personally have not seen.

It was interesting to hear the different comments. Deputy Burton spoke of Ministers of State being stuck in so many different Departments. In many cases that is necessary, where there is no structure. That is in total contrast with the drugs area in which I served, for example, because the structure exists. The Minister chairs the interdepartmental group which is made up of principal officers and assistant secretaries, and the National Drugs Strategy Team which is made up of persons from all the Departments who give two and a half days a week to this specific function. The Minister of State presides over the cross-departmental team. Many of these Ministers of State are looking at new policy areas where there is that joined-up government or cross-departmental process, and the drugs area is a good example of how it is working. The Minister of State in that area, at least in my time, did not need to be involved in the other Departments because the officials are part of the process and the structure exists. That example is being rolled out. While Deputy Burton ridiculed the fact that some Ministers of State might have a foot, a toe or an involvement in three or four Departments, it is to pull together the policy structure in many of those areas.

Fundamentally, the Bill is quite brief. It merely increases the number from 17 to 20. The cost involved is far less than €4 million. It might be somewhat over €1 million per office, if one had all those press and other advisers which certainly not many Ministers of State see. Other Deputies in the A-team might get such assistance but the Ministers of State do not.

I thank Deputies for their comments and seek their support.

Are formal delegation orders being sent?

That will follow. From my five years of experience, in some cases one can have a delegation order and in others one does not. As Deputy Noonan will be aware, much depends on the relationship the Minister has with the Minister of State. Some Ministers of State will say that they had great freedom without delegation orders and some of them might be honest enough to say that, depending on the individual and how confident or otherwise the Minister was, one might not always enjoy the freedom one might like, with or without a delegation order. Much depends on the individual Minister and I am sure Deputy Noonan would know far more about it than I would. That issue will flow down.

I suppose it is good for the Minister of State to have the delegation order in that the structure and the Civil Service take more note of it. In some cases Ministers have the overall responsibility for bringing matters to Cabinet but it generally works better if one has a delegation order, although it is not always essential and, from my limited experience, it is not always the test of whether one has the freedom to properly examine a role or not.

Question put and agreed to.
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