Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Oct 2008

Vol. 665 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Last week, during the Taoiseach's absence in China on national business, this country witnessed the power and anger of elderly people who came on to the streets in their thousands to make the case against what the Government was doing to them. Later in the afternoon they were joined by younger people regarding the Government's intentions on third level education. The Government does not fully appreciate what is happening on the ground and on the streets regarding the education cuts proposed in the budget. It gives the impression the Government members are like headless chickens running all over the country with a discussion document while they are not prepared to realise the implications of what they have done.

The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, may present himself like Leonidas at the pass where he will stand in defence of the decisions made by Government on education cutbacks. I cannot understand how the Taoiseach, Deputy Cowen, could make a decision that would, for instance, take school books from Travellers. It is a relatively infinitesimal amount, but so important in the context of their education. I cannot understand how he could remove language support teachers from classes when there are implications across the board for those pupils and the rest of the classes involved. If some pupils have difficulty learning through English because they never had a chance to learn it, and will have teachers withdrawn, surely the Government realises the implications of that and the difficulties it will cause. There will be no cover for duty carried out by members of the teaching profession at primary and secondary levels, which is so important to the Taoiseach. For example, in the area of science, will teachers be provided with cover if they bring students to the Young Scientist Exhibition in January?

We do not have access to the figures at the Taoiseach's disposal. I asked the Tánaiste a question last week in that context, to which she was unable to give a reply. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, has said that 200 teachers will lose their jobs at primary level and a further 200 will lose their jobs at secondary level. The school enrolment figures were submitted to the Department on 30 September. Is the Taoiseach prepared to publish those figures now, or within the next 48 hours, so we can ascertain, based on the up-to-date figures, what the true number of job losses in the teaching profession will be? I am interested here in the impact on children, at primary and secondary levels, of what the Government has done.

The Taoiseach

As the Leader of the Opposition has already pointed out, a Private Members' motion has been tabled and a debate will take place this evening and tomorrow, during which all of these issues can be addressed in some detail. The Government has had to allocate scarce resources and the Department of Education and Science has been given increased resources this year, unlike many other Departments. One of the unfortunate issues is that 80%, or four fifths, of moneys in education relate to payroll and pension costs. On the question of finding savings, we are going back to the teaching schedule of September 2007. This is what is required in order to ensure we maintain the budgetary parameters we have set ourselves. That is what has been proposed by the Minister for Education and Science and adopted and agreed by the Government. Obviously, we must implement these decisions in the interests of recognising that there are certain unavoidable additional costs coming on stream in that budget in 2009 which also have to be accommodated.

All of this is against the background of an increase of 300% in funding for education since 1997. Capital investment in the sector has been unprecedented, as has the increase in the number of teachers and teaching assistants. However, we are in a new economic situation now and budgetary decisions must be taken in that context. Given that approximately three quarters of total day-to-day spending is on health, education and social welfare, to suggest that one could deal with the difficulties without impacting on those areas is to underestimate and fundamentally misunderstand the size of the problem we face.

The debate this evening will enable Members on all sides of the House to discuss the issues and the Minister for Education and Science will take the opportunity to do so and to outline the situation in detail, including in relation to enrolment figures or any other queries Deputy Kenny may have.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach has not answered my question. The Government has the enrolment figures which were submitted at the end of September. Is the Taoiseach prepared to publish those figures so we can verify the number of teaching posts that will be lost? The question is a straightforward one — will the Taoiseach publish the figures? I do not have access to the figures but the Department has them.

I note that the Taoiseach has been joined by the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Deputy Hanafin, who explained on radio recently that she was going to do young people with disabilities a favour by raising the age at which they can claim disability allowance from 16 to 18 years.

What the Government has done here is quite incredible. I cannot understand how Deputy Brian Cowen, as a Deputy or as Taoiseach, can stand over a situation where language resource teachers will be deliberately withdrawn from schools and will no longer be able to teach English to students who need it. That will also impact on other children who speak English but who need educational stimulation right across the board and it will be to the detriment of the younger generation.

Government Ministers have been asking what Fine Gael proposes to do. They want to know why we cannot have a renewed Tallaght strategy. I have rejected that notion because of the carry-on of the Government. I am glad to see that the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, has arrived back from far away China.

The reason given for the medical cards debacle was the need for cutbacks. My party has proposed that there should be a pay freeze across the public sector for those earning more than €50,000 per annum. If increments are included, that would yield €400 million, or €300 million without increments. In the education sector alone, €300 million would enable all of the services that are due to be cut back to continue.

Deputy Brian Hayes

That is right.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Government is going to bring mayhem to classrooms, cause savage disruption for parents all over the country and deliberately do down the education of the young. Children need to be in classes of a reasonable size in order to be able to compete with their peers internationally. We will fall behind in that regard by virtue of the Government's decision.

Does the Taoiseach accept that a pay freeze for those in the public sector earning more than €50,000 per year for 12 months would yield €300 million? That money would save all of the services that are to be cut, namely, books for travellers, language resource teachers, resource teachers and cover and substitution where required. In that way, the Government would not inflict, by deliberate short-sightedness, absolute mayhem on schools or cause consternation for parents all over the country.

The Taoiseach

Last week, Deputy Brian Hayes indicated that implementing a pay freeze for teachers who earn over €50,000 would save €128 million a year. The proposal Deputy Kenny is now making is that such a pay freeze should apply to all public servants, but we work in partnership with public service unions. In fact, we want to work in partnership on this issue as well. Social partnership is not just about working together in good times, but also in bad times. It is also about implementing difficult decisions, some of which one would prefer were not necessary, but by reason of the economic circumstances in which we find ourselves are necessary.

The Minister of Education and Science has contended, and it is true, that there have been great improvements in the education system over many years in terms of both capital and current spending. Improvements have been made in the pupil-teacher ratio and in the numbers assisting teachers, who are there in their thousands as opposed to their hundreds, as was the case when we took office more than ten years ago.

Huge investment has been made, quite rightly, in education and that will continue next year and in the years thereafter. However, the investment cannot be at the levels of the recent past because of the situation in which we now find ourselves. One of the accommodations we must make relates to the pupil-teacher ratio, which will be increased by one at primary and post-primary level. The Minister has pointed out that, in net terms, he expects that to equate to 200 teachers at each level and he outlined to the House the basis for that expectation. In terms of the overall number of teaching posts, we are talking about less than 1% whereas other Departments have been asked to make payroll savings of 4% in order to deal with the situation.

Deputy Enda Kenny

That point was not mentioned before now.

The Taoiseach

I do not accept the contention that the proposed changes will put children at an irreversible disadvantage or lead to a drastic reduction in service. We are talking about going back to the situation that pertained in 2007 which itself was far better than preceding years. That is what the Minister is putting forward——

Deputy David Stanton

A child is only five once.

The Taoiseach

This decision must be implemented in order to meet the budgetary parameters that we have set ourselves. That is what the Government is committed to doing.

Deputy David Stanton

A child is only five once and only gets one chance.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Before we debate the Labour Party Private Members' motion on the education cuts and the Government's scandalous and short-sighted decision to increase class sizes, I seek clarification from the Taoiseach as to where the Government stands on these issues. We have had two different messages from the Government in recent days. From the Taoiseach and the Minister for Education and Science we have had the message that there will be no change; that the Government is hanging tight and standing firm; and that there will be no change in the education measures, including the decision to increase class sizes, which was made in the context of the budget.

We heard a different message from the Green Party yesterday. Following its meeting the Green Party issued a statement saying it was seeking changes in education funding on an ongoing basis, especially in the short term. The Green Party has apparently decided to send Deputy Paul Gogarty to negotiate with the Minister for Education and Science. It must be the first time that a party in Government has sent a backbencher to re-negotiate measures already agreed by its Ministers in Government.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

They have gone underground.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

A letter from St. Paul to the Thessalonians.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

When it comes to this exchange, my money is on the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. Will the Taoiseach answer specifically——

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

My concern is with Deputy Gogarty.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Will there be changes? The Green Party says there will be changes, but that it will take more than two days to negotiate these with the Minister for Education and Science. It says there will be changes and has communicated as much to parents who have been in contact. It says Deputy Paul Gogarty will negotiate these changes, but it might take a while to do so. Will there be changes or not? Will the Government change the decision to increase class sizes? Will it change the decision to cap the number of language support teachers? Will it reverse the decision to take €7.5 million from the small grant available for school books? Will it reverse the decision to take the €2 million available for capitation for traveller education, the €2 million available for school libraries, the measures to cut grant supports for the applied leaving certificate and the other measures designed to keep children in schools? Will the Government say whether there will be changes in the announcements on education cuts, especially on the issue of class sizes?

The Taoiseach

We are bringing forward a counter-motion supportive of the Government in response to the motion from the Labour Party. This outlines our position and recognises the economic situation we face. Difficult decisions must be taken, including those on education. The counter-motion also outlines the significant improvements seen in education in recent years. It outlines our commitment to working with our partners in education in the implementation of these decisions, which must be implemented. There is a commitment from Government, which is always the case since we are parties which have always supported education during the good times and have shown as much in successive budgets and Estimates.

However, given the new situation, we maintain as soon as the economic situation improves we can revert to those policies of expansion and improvement. In the meantime the position is that given the economic downturn affecting this country and others, we must take the decisions for the coming financial year which are the responsibility of a Government, and we must proceed with those decisions. We will do so in as sensitive, honest and decent a way as possible.

The Minister for Education and Science has responsibility for the day-to-day budget and he will continue to act and to implement the decisions taken by the Government. The counter-motion set out by the Government confirms that decision. From the time this issue arose after the budget, the Minister for Education and Science has outlined that the question of two language support teachers per school was being re-introduced——

Deputy Brian Hayes

It was three per school.

The Taoiseach

He further said if there was a problem in a particular school he would seek to examine the matter sympathetically to see if he could increase the complement there if it were justified in particular, given circumstances. The Minister has been open to seek to achieve this. The Minister has outlined the position in full and has indicated his intentions already.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply, because he has answered the question I put. There will be no change and the counter-motion tabled by the Government confirms this. The Taoiseach is correct. There is not a fig-leaf, whether organic or genetically modified, to cover the political embarrassment of the Green Party. The Taoiseach's Green Party colleagues in Government are telling parents they will negotiate changes in the education cuts announced by the Government and the Minister for Education and Science.

I acknowledge the variation in the number of language support teachers. The Minister already said he was open to considering applications from individual schools. However, it is clear from the Taoiseach's reply that the Government's position and that of the Minister for Education and Science is that there will be no change. This is significantly at variance with what the Taoiseach's partners in Government are trying to communicate. The Green Party has found itself in a situation where it has been running the education issue up the flag pole for some time. It made a significant issue of the matter at the last general election. It is confronted with a motion on which it must vote. However, to buy political time and space Green Party members said, following their meeting yesterday, they would negotiate some changes, that Deputy Paul Gogarty would negotiate with the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, that it could take more than two days, but if left with them they would get results.

The Taoiseach's reply is clear, they will get no results. The so-called negotiation between Deputy Gogarty and the Minister, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe, is a waste of time. It is simply a fig-leaf, a way of getting over the politically embarrassing hump of this evening and tomorrow and a means to buy time. The Taoiseach's answer to my first question, which I fully acknowledge, is clear. The Taoiseach, the Minister for Education and Science and the Government have decided that they are not for turning on the education issue. This presents a fundamental challenge and difficulty for the Taoiseach's partners in Government, as the Green Party indicated it wishes to negotiate on the matter.

The Taoiseach

I understand precisely the tactic Deputy Gilmore seeks to employ in an effort to sow divisions in the Government. There is no division in the Government about the necessity to deal with the issues——

Deputy Joan Burton

Where are the members of the Green Party?

The Taoiseach

We have concerns as have every party when there are issues affecting education.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There is not even a token Deputy present.

The Taoiseach

We have seen outstanding results from investment in education and there will be continued investment in education next year. There will be €586 million spent on improving, constructing and extending schools throughout the country.

Deputy Brian Hayes

There will be 2,000 fewer teachers.

The Taoiseach

Some ten years ago the figure from the party on the opposite side of the House was €80 million.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Publish the figures.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Reduce class sizes.

The Taoiseach

Let us be under no illusion. There will be continued and serious investment in education. However, we face budgetary parameters. Were the Opposition parties in Government, they would have to contend with this issue also. I say to the people simply that we will continue our investment in education next year and in the years ahead and in better times we will accelerate that investment. However, we face a situation which any responsible Government would face. The budgetary reality is not unique to this country, it is a position faced by every other developed economy. Decisions must be taken, not motivated by penalising people——

Deputy Enda Kenny

Such as withdrawing medical cards?

The Taoiseach

——but motivated by ensuring we sustain, to the greatest extent possible, the solid achievements built up in the past ten years. This is the purpose of adapting and making the adjustment now. If we do not——

Deputy Michael Creed

The Government is not sustaining anything. They are making class sizes bigger.

The Taoiseach

——it is clear that the budgetary situation will deteriorate further and the cuts contemplated would be even greater.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It could be worse.

The Taoiseach

Even with the discipline we are exercising — the €2 billion expenditure cuts involved in the budget and the €2 billion extra in taxation — we still have a current budget deficit which must be addressed in future years. Further strategic decisions will have to be taken.

Deputy Michael Creed

A mini-budget.

The Taoiseach

Any suggestion to the contrary is not being honest with the people. Whatever the popularity stakes, I will be honest with the people.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Taoiseach should try telling that to the teachers.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

That is the greatest conversion since St. Paul went on the road to Damascus.