Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 10, motion re membership of committees; No. 16, statements on European Council, Brussels; and No. 17, Charities Bill 2007 — Order for Report and Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 10 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 16 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 80 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 60 minutes and shall be confined to the Taoiseach and to the main spokespersons for the Fine Gael Party, the Labour Party and Sinn Féin, who shall be called upon in that order, who may share their time and which shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; immediately following the statements, a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes. Private Members' business, which shall be No. 45, motion re educational cuts, shall be taken for 90 minutes at 7 p.m. or on the conclusion of No. 16, whichever is the later, and shall also take place tomorrow after the Order of Business and shall be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes on that day.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 10 agreed?

Deputy Enda Kenny

I do not hold any brief for Deputies Joe Behan or Finian McGrath but I find this to be quite vindictive. I gave approval to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Micheál Martin, when he sought concessions for the special sub-committee on the Lisbon treaty which is of considerable importance. I did not raise any racket about it because, as the Taoiseach is aware, for the committee to deal with and accommodate people who did not support the Lisbon treaty it was necessary to adjust the number of members upwards. I was not going to object to this.

As I stated, I do not hold any brief for the two non-Fianna Fáil Deputies——

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Non persons.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——but this is vindictive. If the Government wants to remove convenor's allowance is its own business. On this basis, I oppose No. 10.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I join with Deputy Kenny in opposing No. 10. This is a motion to sack Deputy Joe Behan from two committees and to sack Deputy Finian McGrath from one committee. The only reason this is on our Order Paper today is because they incurred the Government's displeasure for voting against the budget and budgetary measures. I consider the motion before us to be nasty, mean and vindictive on the part of the Government.

I also object to it because the Government is treating committees of the House as though they were committees of the Fianna Fáil parliamentary party.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

These committees are committees of the House.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Hear, hear.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Members are on these committees as Members of Dáil Éireann. Committees of the House should not be treated as though they were the private property of the Fianna Fáil Party so that if a Member of the House incurs the displeasure of the Government a motion is brought before the House to kick him or her off whatever committee he or she is on. On these grounds the Labour Party opposes this motion.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Does the Green Party support this?

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

I too strongly object to the Government's action to remove both Deputies Joe Behan and Finian McGrath from their respective committees. It is my understanding that every Member is entitled to participation on an Oireachtas committee. I see no proposition before us to accommodate Deputies Joe Behan and Finian McGrath on a different committee, one of their choice or on the committees in question as non-government participants.

There are fair and appropriate ways of dealing with this matter. This, however, appears to be a vexed act on the part of the Government in a matter of only a few days after the Deputies' decision to take a principled stand in opposition to the Government's budget measures. It is vindictive, does not respect the Deputies' democratic mandate or uphold their right to participate on an Oireachtas committee of their choice or as available. This should have been dealt with through negotiation by the Chief Whip with the two Deputies concerned rather than this proposition. It is wrong and is a slight not only on Deputies Joe Behan and Finian McGrath but on each Member. We in Sinn Féin have known the Government's approach to committee membership access following last year's general election.

A Deputy

Deputy Finian McGrath better hurry down from the Gallery into the Chamber. Come on Finian.

Deputy Jim O’Keeffe

The Finian volunteers.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Deputy Finian McGrath was a great contributor to committees.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

He better hurry on. The Taoiseach is just about to sack him.

The Taoiseach

I reject the idea that there is anything vindictive in this matter.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

The reason——

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Is the Taoiseach going to sack Deputy Finian McGrath like he will sack the teachers?

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

Is the Taoiseach going to do another U-turn?

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Is the Taoiseach doing it?

The Taoiseach

Members are listened to in silence when they make a false charge and then start shouting when they hear the answer. These are legislative committees and the Government needs working majorities on them.

Deputy Fergus O’Dowd

The Committee of Public Accounts is not one.

The Taoiseach

The Members in question are members of other committees to which they contribute well. While we have had our political disagreements recently, I wish all the Deputies well.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

What about Deputy McGrath?

The Taoiseach

That has always been my view. I do not hide my disappointment that we have lost their support. These are political decisions that must be taken and we all must move on.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I come not to praise Deputy Finian McGrath but to bury him.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

It is a vindictive act.

The Taoiseach

That is a predictable charge to come from the other sides of the House.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Taoiseach is sacking him like the teachers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Paul Kehoe, please.

The Taoiseach

It is not true. The Government needs working majorities on legislative committees.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Deputy Finian McGrath was such a good legislator.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

We all legislate.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

One should have seen the way Deputy Finian McGrath operated.

The Taoiseach

The Opposition knows that. If it were in this position, it would have to do the same.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

Happy Christmas Deputy Finian McGrath.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

It is a vindictive act.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Poor Deputy Finian McGrath.

Deputy Joe Costello

Good luck Deputy Finian McGrath.

Deputy Ciarán Lynch

The end of Finian's Rainbow.

The Taoiseach

As for the other committees on which the Deputies in question are members, they will continue to contribute to them.

Deputies

Deputy Finian McGrath wishes to contribute. Will the Ceann Comhairle allow him?

(Interruptions).

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 10, without debate, be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 81; Níl, 73.

Tá

Ahern, Dermot.
Ahern, Michael.
Andrews, Barry.
Andrews, Chris.
Aylward, Bobby.
Blaney, Niall.
Brady, Áine.
Brady, Cyprian.
Brady, Johnny.
Browne, John.
Byrne, Thomas.
Calleary, Dara.
Carey, Pat.
Collins, Niall.
Conlon, Margaret.
Connick, Seán.
Coughlan, Mary.
Cowen, Brian.
Cregan, John.
Cuffe, Ciarán.
Cullen, Martin.
Curran, John.
Dempsey, Noel.
Devins, Jimmy.
Dooley, Timmy.
Fahey, Frank.
Finneran, Michael.
Fitzpatrick, Michael.
Fleming, Seán.
Flynn, Beverley.
Gallagher, Pat The Cope.
Gogarty, Paul.
Gormley, John.
Grealish, Noel.
Hanafin, Mary.
Harney, Mary.
Haughey, Seán.
Healy-Rae, Jackie.
Hoctor, Máire.
Kelleher, Billy.
Kelly, Peter.
Kenneally, Brendan.
Kennedy, Michael.
Killeen, Tony.
Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Michael P.
Kitt, Tom.
Lenihan, Brian.
Lenihan, Conor.
Lowry, Michael.
McEllistrim, Thomas.
McGrath, Mattie.
McGrath, Michael.
McGuinness, John.
Mansergh, Martin.
Martin, Micheál.
Moloney, John.
Moynihan, Michael.
Mulcahy, Michael.
Nolan, M.J.
Ó Cuív, Éamon.
Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
O’Brien, Darragh.
O’Connor, Charlie.
O’Dea, Willie.
O’Flynn, Noel.
O’Hanlon, Rory.
O’Keeffe, Batt.
O’Keeffe, Edward.
O’Rourke, Mary.
O’Sullivan, Christy.
Power, Peter.
Power, Seán.
Roche, Dick.
Ryan, Eamon.
Sargent, Trevor.
Scanlon, Eamon.
Smith, Brendan.
Treacy, Noel.
Wallace, Mary.
White, Mary Alexandra.

Níl

Allen, Bernard.
Bannon, James.
Barrett, Seán.
Breen, Pat.
Broughan, Thomas P.
Bruton, Richard.
Burke, Ulick.
Burton, Joan.
Byrne, Catherine.
Carey, Joe.
Clune, Deirdre.
Connaughton, Paul.
Coonan, Noel J.
Costello, Joe.
Coveney, Simon.
Crawford, Seymour.
Creed, Michael.
Creighton, Lucinda.
D’Arcy, Michael.
Deasy, John.
Deenihan, Jimmy.
Doyle, Andrew.
Durkan, Bernard J.
English, Damien.
Enright, Olwyn.
Feighan, Frank.
Ferris, Martin.
Flanagan, Charles.
Flanagan, Terence.
Gilmore, Eamon.
Hayes, Brian.
Hayes, Tom.
Higgins, Michael D.
Hogan, Phil.
Howlin, Brendan.
Kehoe, Paul.
Kenny, Enda.
Lynch, Ciarán.
Lynch, Kathleen.
McCormack, Pádraic.
McEntee, Shane.
McGinley, Dinny.
McGrath, Finian.
McHugh, Joe.
McManus, Liz.
Mitchell, Olivia.
Morgan, Arthur.
Naughten, Denis.
Neville, Dan.
Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
O’Donnell, Kieran.
O’Dowd, Fergus.
O’Keeffe, Jim.
O’Mahony, John.
O’Shea, Brian.
O’Sullivan, Jan.
Penrose, Willie.
Perry, John.
Quinn, Ruairí.
Rabbitte, Pat.
Ring, Michael.
Shatter, Alan.
Sheahan, Tom.
Sheehan, P.J.
Sherlock, Seán.
Shortall, Róisín.
Stagg, Emmet.
Stanton, David.
Timmins, Billy.
Tuffy, Joanna.
Upton, Mary.
Wall, Jack.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Pat Carey and John Cregan; Níl, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 16 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business agreed to? Agreed. I call Deputy Kenny on the Order of Business.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Can the Taoiseach confirm when the Social Welfare Bill will come to the House, and can he confirm that the matter of dealing with an automatic right to medical cards will be dealt with within a section of that, but taken by the Minister for Health and Children? That is the understanding I had last week in the Taoiseach's absence when I asked this question.

Second, can the Taoiseach tell us the date when he expects the fair deal Bill dealing with long-stay nursing homes to be brought before the House?

Third, No. 43, the education Ireland Bill, is a Bill to regulate the provision of education services including the teaching of English as a foreign language to students here.

An Ceann Comhairle

The lobby cannot be used as a conversation point while the Order of Business is proceeding.

Deputy Enda Kenny

It seems a little unusual that on the one hand the Government intends to bring in a Bill to teach English as a foreign language and on the other it is withdrawing teachers who are teaching English to foreign students.

An Ceann Comhairle

On the legislation, the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

They are two different objectives. The education Ireland Bill will be introduced next year. The Whips will be meeting on the business next week and the week after. More than likely, the fair deal Bill will probably come into the House the week after next.

On the Social Welfare Bill, the date of its introduction will be announced by the Minister for Social and Family Affairs in due course and will come to the House as soon as agreed by the Whips.

On the question of the medical card provision, that will be dealt with in separate health legislation by the Minister for Health and Children.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Will the Taoiseach clarify the point raised by Deputy Rabbitte in earlier questions about whether AIB and Bank of Ireland——

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into that now, as Deputy Gilmore well knows.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

——are covered by the guarantee scheme?

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy Gilmore. You cannot ask that question now because that is a question for Question Time and it was properly asked at that time. We cannot go into it on the Order of Business. That must be dealt with in another way. I could not allow that, I am sorry.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

I have just asked it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I know that. It is not in order.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Maybe the Taoiseach would like to reply to it.

The Taoiseach

Let me put it this way, we cannot facilitate a debate on an incorrect report.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Rabbitte asked a question about that and he received an answer. I must move on with the Order of Business. I have several Deputies offering, as Deputy Gilmore knows.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Can I ask the Taoiseach a question while he is thinking about an answer to the question I asked him?

The Taoiseach

I have answered.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

When will the Taoiseach move the writ for the Dublin South by-election?

The Taoiseach

Not soon.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is very interesting as well.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

Last weekend the Tánaiste undertook to give me a reply on the subject of the legislative programme that had been agreed between the Government and the social partners and, specifically, the legislation on collective bargaining. In addition, she agreed to provide information on the proposals for the Competition Authority and whether there would be an amendment of section 4 of the Competition Act. She has had no contact with me. Aside from the disappointment of not having the private session she promised, I must ask again whether it is the intention of Government to publish the legislative programme arising from its undertakings to the social partners. Is it the intention in this session or the next to publish collective bargaining legislation? Specifically, when will the competition (amendment) Bill, to which the Minister referred, be published, and will it include an amendment of section 4 of the original Act?

The Taoiseach

I understand both the compliance Bill and the competition (amendment) Bill will be introduced next year.

Deputy Michael D. Higgins

The Tánaiste suggested she needed amending legislation to enable her to talk to the Irish Medical Organisation. If there is to be no amendment to the Competition Act, does this mean she will have no such talks with the IMO?

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot talk about that now. There is not a hope.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

The Taoiseach has just told Deputy Kenny that the provisions removing the entitlement to the medical card from the over 70s will now be included in separate health legislation rather than in the social welfare Bill. Could the Taoiseach tell us whether this is to be a straightforward amendment of the 2001 Act or new legislation to remove the cards from those currently over 70?

The Taoiseach

A change to the legal basis for entitlement is required, which will involve an amendment to the 2001 Act.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

Will there be new legislation as well?

The Taoiseach

We will bring in a health (miscellaneous provisions) Bill to deal with it.

Deputy Jan O’Sullivan

Is there any timeframe? I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, but I do not think the Taoiseach mentioned a timeframe.

The Taoiseach

It will be before 1 January.

Deputy Joan Burton

Will the Minister for Finance make a statement in the House with regard to the changes in the credit institutions (financial support) scheme, which has been posted on the Department's website?

An Ceann Comhairle

I have explained on a number of occasions that we cannot have these questions.

Deputy Joan Burton

There was an extraordinary event on Friday in which an insurance company and persons connected with it were fined significant amounts of money.

An Ceann Comhairle

If we discussed every extraordinary event in the House we would never finish the Order of Business.

Deputy Joan Burton

Will the Minister come to the House to make a statement on this?

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy has a question that is in order she should let me know.

Deputy Joan Burton

Not since Robert Maxwell have we had an event such as this in an insurance company——

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not care whether it is Rupert Murdoch or Robert Maxwell, it is not in order now.

Deputy Joan Burton

——in this or the neighbouring jurisdiction. Will the Minister make a statement in the House?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way of raising that matter as it is not in order.

Deputy Joan Burton

Will the Minister come to the House and make a statement about this extraordinary state of affairs?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall on legislation, I hope.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

When is it intended to publish the social welfare Bill? Will the Government follow the normal practice of having two social welfare Bills to give effect to the changes announced in the budget?

The Taoiseach

I understand the social welfare Bill will be published next Monday.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Will it be just one Bill?

The Taoiseach

Presumably, yes.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

Against the background of the damning report today in the Irish Examiner on child care facilities, is legislation promised to address the issue of child care needs? Specifically, will the Taoiseach accommodate a full Dáil debate on the new community child care subvention scheme, which is having a serious effect on child care facilities throughout the country?

Finally, my last question——

An Ceann Comhairle

Try to be in order this time.

Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin

The Cabinet today dealt with the report on remuneration of GPs for medical card services for the over 70s. Can we have a clear idea of when it is intended to introduce a competition Bill to facilitate proper engagement with the IMO, the Irish Pharmacy Union, the Irish Dental Association and others?

The Taoiseach

With regard to the question of amendments to the Competition Act, the undertaking, which is specific to the IMO, has been given and, as the Tánaiste has indicated, the legislation will be enacted next year. Perhaps a parliamentary question to the Minister for Health and Children will elicit an accurate reply on the child care regulatory situation.

Deputy Michael Creed

When will the animal health and welfare Bill be published? Is it proposed that the issue of licensing of puppy farms will be dealt with through this legislation rather than through the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government?

The Taoiseach

I am not aware of the details of the Bill, but consultations have been completed and submissions are being considered at the moment.

Deputy Michael Creed

Will it be this session?

The Taoiseach

As I said, the discussions have just been finished.

Deputy Bernard Allen

In early summer the chairperson of the Cork Airport Authority resigned. Yesterday Ms Glucksman, another board member, resigned, and a third member has unfortunately died.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is unfortunate, but we cannot discuss it now.

Deputy Bernard Allen

When will the Government appoint a new chairperson of the Cork Airport Authority, and when will the other vacancies be filled?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not relevant at all.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Could I be of some assistance to the Taoiseach in these sensitive and unstable times? The eligibility for health and personal social services Bill, No. 54, is promised to clarify and update the present provisions relating to eligibility for health and personal social services. That could be very enlightening in terms of eligibility for medical cards among the over 70s——

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to ask his question.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

——and various other services that are being curtailed surreptitiously at the moment. In the context of the present debate, could the Taoiseach give some indication to the House as to whether he might introduce this Bill? It may assuage many fears.

The Taoiseach

Unfortunately, there is no date for that legislation.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is unfortunate.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

I ask the Taoiseach whether there are legislative proposals concerning the archaic ward of court laws. It is generally accepted there are plans in the Department for this, but I am not sure at what point they are. Is it intended to introduce legislation in the near future?

An Ceann Comhairle

We can only ask questions on legislation that is actually promised. If people want to find out whether legislation is promised they can put down a question.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

It might be promised and I might not know about it.

The Taoiseach

I cannot assist the Deputy as I do not know whether it is promised. We will check it out.

A Deputy

It might be a broken promise.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 29 Oct 2008