Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 21 Jan 2010

Vol. 699 No. 3

Adjournment Debate.

House Repossessions.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for the opportunity to raise this issue that needs to be urgently addressed. There is a need for the Minister for Finance and the Government to make a decision, as a matter of urgency, on whether to extend the moratorium on house repossessions or face to the reality and introduce a NAMA-type scheme for householders, especially those people who have large mortgage arrears and face the strong possibility of their houses being repossessed. We know from new figures published this week by the credit agency, Moody's, that 6,400 householders did not make any form of mortgage repayment last year. It is critical that some sort of an arrangement is arrived at immediately, otherwise these people will be at severe risk of losing their homes. The one-year moratorium on house repossessions is due to finish at the end of this month. The situation in which these people find themselves needs to be addressed as a matter of urgency and they need assistance.

The Minister for Finance has only kicked to touch on this issue. The Government introduced the moratorium on house repossessions but since then it has not given any guidance or reassurance to anyone who finds himself or herself in difficulty and faces the prospect of losing his or her home. The Fine Gael Party has introduced the homeowners support scheme, which will help and protect people and ensure that will retain their home. Family protection is what is needed.

There are more than 100,000 people on the housing lists throughout the country. The last thing we need is an increase in the numbers on those lists as a result of house repossessions. There are 300,000 vacant houses and the Government should help out ordinary people who find themselves in extreme difficulties

The Fine Gael homeowners' support scheme would allow NAMA to take an equity share in a property after negotiating a write down in the outstanding debt with the relevant financial institution and then the property owner would have an opportunity to service that debt directly with NAMA and an opportunity to buy back the equity stake if the owner gets to sell the property at some stage in the future. Consequently, NAMA would realise the money at the point of sale.

We know from figures published by the Financial Regulator that at the end of September last year, 331 residential properties were repossessed by banks, which equates to one home a day having been repossessed. Yet the Minister for Finance, who is completely out of touch, said in his Budget Statement that only 20 homes were repossessed last year, which is completely at odds with the statistics. The Minister of State might comment on that in his reply.

The reality of repossession was highlighted clearly in the media in December in a High Court case involving a couple who had lost their jobs. Stepstone Mortgages would not re-negotiate an agreement with the couple to accept a mortgage repayment of €800 a month. It sought a payment from them of €2,400, which they were not in a position to meet. These people were not afforded an opportunity by that institution or any help by the Government and now find themselves as part of the homeless and housing statistics. The Government and the taxpayer will have to pick up the tab. Clear intervention and help is required for people who find themselves in this difficulty

We know from the CSO that 77,500 households are in arrears on their mortgage repayments. The problem will snowball in the months and years ahead. It is imperative that action is taken now. The mortgage interest supplement is inadequate and is clearly not helping those who need help repaying their mortgages. The Government must loosen the qualifying conditions and include sub-prime lenders among the qualifying lenders.

I hope the Minister will have some good news. He should either extend the moratorium on housing repossessions or actually face this problem head-on.

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Deputy Dick Roche)

I thank Deputy Flanagan for raising this issue, because there is no Member of the House who does not understand the importance that Irish people place on home ownership. However, I must take the Deputy up on his last point. It is important to emphasise that the current code of practice will not, as the Deputy appears to believe — although I am sure his belief is sincere — be ending this month.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

It is not working.

Deputy Dick Roche

Well, it is not ending this month, which was the premise on which the Deputy tabled this matter.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

The moratorium on repossessions is to end.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Cyprian Brady)

The Minister without interruption.

Deputy Dick Roche

The code of conduct on mortgage arrears, which was published by the Financial Regulator last February, applies to all regulated lenders on a statutory basis and replaces the earlier voluntary code operated by mainstream lenders. The code applies only to mortgage lending to consumers in respect of their principal private residences in Ireland.

The main features of the code are early recognition of problems — as soon as even one payment is missed, lenders must communicate with the borrower to establish why the repayment schedule has not been adhered to and how the situation may be rectified; active management of arrears problems — a plan for clearing the mortgage arrears can be developed that is consistent with the interests of both lender and borrower and takes into consideration all viable options open to the borrower; examination of alternative solutions — the lender must explore with the borrower alternative repayment measures, including changing the monthly repayments to help address the arrears situation; and the use of repossession only as a last resort — the lender must not seek repossession of the property until every reasonable effort has been made to agree an alternative repayment schedule with the borrower.

It is important to emphasise that the code is not due to expire at the end of the month, as the Deputy appeared to suggest. The code requires a lender to wait at least six months from the time arrears first arise before applying to the courts to commence enforcement of any legal action on repossession, so there is no deadline looming after which this protection will expire. In the case of Bank of Ireland and AIB, both of which have been recapitalised by the State, this period has been extended to 12 months, also from the time arrears first arise, for the duration of the recapitalisation subscription agreement. As a further measure, the Minister has been in touch with the Financial Regulator to request that consideration be given to extending the moratorium on mortgage arrears from six to 12 months for all mortgage lenders.

The Irish Banking Federation, representing the mainstream lenders, published a statement of intent in November 2009 which provides further reassurance to homeowners who find themselves genuinely unable to maintain repayments on their principal private residence. The statement has been agreed and supported by all IBF members and is a welcome development. It is also welcome that the IBF oversight committee on the implementation of the statement of intent will include a representative from the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS.

The House will be aware that there have been a number of developments relating to the Government's commitments in the renewed programme for Government dealing with protecting the family home and helping those in debt. In particular, I refer to the recent Government decisions on matters relating to indebtedness and mortgage arrears and also personal debt management and enforcement. Work has commenced on bringing forward options for dealing with these matters. In his budget speech the Minister refocused mortgage interest relief on those who bought their homes at the peak of the market. Where a homeowner's entitlement to mortgage interest relief was to expire in 2010 or after, he or she will now continue to receive it up to the end of 2017.

In addition to the code of conduct on mortgage arrears, a number of additional support measures are in place, including the mortgage interest subsidy scheme, of which the Deputy will be aware. The Government also funds MABS, which provides valuable support for families in difficulty. MABS is the main Government-funded service which provides assistance to people who are over-indebted and need help and advice in matters relating to debt management. A new debt protocol agreement has been finalised with MABS and the Irish Banking Federation which provides added reassurance for borrowers with the most difficult issues.

Historically, repossessions in Ireland have been low. A comparison of repossession figures from mainstream IBF members — that is, not including sub-prime lenders——

Deputy Terence Flanagan

That is the problem.

Deputy Dick Roche

——with figures from the UK Council of Mortgage lenders indicates that UK repossession rates per 100,000 mortgages are 30 times those in Ireland. Media reports of repossession cases taken through the courts show that most involve sub-prime lenders, as mentioned by the Deputy, which made mortgages available to borrowers who would not have been customers of the mainstream lenders, often because of perceived higher risks. Cases in which borrowers stopped payment after a few months, failed to respond to repeated attempts to contact them or even abandoned their houses feature regularly in media reports of repossession cases before the courts.

Suggestions that thousands of ordinary families are at risk of being evicted are far from the truth. They are unnecessarily frightening for those who find themselves in difficulty and should not be made.

Deputy Terence Flanagan

There were 331 repossessions last year. That is the reality.

Deputy Dick Roche

All estimates of the extent of negative equity appear to be based on general economic assumptions, but it is difficult to assess realistic price levels when property market activity remains low. Being in negative equity does not change one's mortgage payments, and the Financial Regulator has estimated that only a small proportion of borrowers with the covered institutions who are in negative equity are in arrears on their payments. As the House is aware, NAMA, the legislation pertaining to which has now passed into law, is designed to address systemic risk in our banking system. The suggestion that NAMA could operate for householders is not an appropriate means of addressing the issue of mortgage arrears for home owners.

Everybody accepts that we have gone through a difficult period. The Government is confident that measures taken recently, along with the existing supports to which I referred, will assist those who are in difficulty. The advice we all give regularly in our clinics to those who find themselves in this difficult situation is that the most important thing is to contact one's lender and use the facility of MABS. In this way most people can work their way through these difficulties. I accept the Deputy's premise that this is a serious issue——

Deputy Terence Flanagan

It is a time bomb.

Deputy Dick Roche

——and nothing I have said should be taken as undermining the compassion we all feel for those who find themselves in this situation.

Residential Institutions.

Deputy Joan Burton

The issue of women who were committed to Magdalene laundries is one of the last unresolved issues of the hidden Ireland of institutions, religious orders and the State so eloquently set out in the Ryan report and a whole series of articles, books, films, memoirs and television programmes.

Just before Christmas last year, the Justice for Magdalene group met senior officials in the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. At that meeting, Mr. James Martin, an assistant secretary at the Department, stated that after the passage of the Criminal Justice Act 1960, the State routinely placed women on remand in the Magdalene institutions and paid a capitation grant for each woman so referred. I welcome the admission by the Department that women were routinely referred to various Magdalene asylums via the Irish court system in an arrangement entered into by members of the Judiciary and the four religious congregations operating Magdalene laundries in the State. Women were also placed in Magdalene laundries "on probation" by the Irish court system, in some cases for periods of up to three years.

There is cross-party agreement among many of Members of the Dáil in support of the demand by the Justice for Magdalene group that records relating to all such women and to these institutions should be released. In addition, it now seems appropriate that the Minister for Education and Science should withdraw the assertion he made on 4 September 2009 that "the State did not refer individuals to Magdalene laundries; nor was it complicit in referring individuals to them".

The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has come clean and the Department of Education and Science should do the same. The Minister for Education and Science must come before the House and withdraw these references, as well as his previous references to women in Magdalene laundries being some form of employee in routine employment within the laundries. There is a need to seek to address the wrong that was done to these women. They need a forum in which to tell their story, recover their history and be acknowledged by the State. Many of the survivors, who are not numerous, now are elderly, poor and living in greatly reduced circumstances in Ireland, the United Kingdom and the United States.

It is welcome that the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has entered into a serious dialogue with the representatives of these women. Last July, on foot of the publication of the Ryan report, the Labour Party introduced to the Dáil a Bill prepared by my colleague, Deputy Quinn, which sought to address some of the proposals in the all-party resolution which followed on from the Ryan report. This included a proposal to extend for the purposes of redress, the age of majority to the then age of majority of 21. The Labour Party believes this would deal with a significant number of cases.

For people under 40, there is almost no memory or familiarity with the laundries or the other institutions in which women were incarcerated, in many cases because they were having a child on their own or because they otherwise had come to the attention of the courts. Incarceration in such institutions was seen by the court system and a doctrinaire Catholic State as a substitute for female imprisonment. As I noted previously regarding the school I attended, a laundry was attached to the Sisters of Charity convent, Stanhope Street, that I believe continued until the end of the 1960s. The same also is true in other parts of the country.

I believe the public in Ireland and a wide body of cross-party opinion in this House, strongly supports justice and restitution for the women who were incarcerated and who worked like slaves in these laundries. It is up to the Minister for Education and Science to do this because in the Ryan report and many of the other reports, the Department of Education and Science had a pivotal role in committing people to institutions. Much has been learned from the Ryan and Murphy reports and a series of small steps remain to be taken in respect of the legacy of the Magdalene laundries. I believe the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has begun on the right road and the challenge is for the Minister for Education and Science to come before this House and do the same by remedying this historic wrong.

Deputy Dick Roche

At the outset, I apologise that the Minister is not present. I agree with the Deputy that this is one of the most bleak periods and episodes in what, it must be said, was a bleak period in Irish life. Second, on reading the materials for the response to the Deputy, I note the bulk of them come from the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I make this point in advance as a caveat because it may be that the Deputy will seek to retable this issue for discussion with a specific focus on her concerns regarding the Department of Education and Science. Therefore, the Deputy should forgive me if the reply does not quite touch on the areas on which she sought a response. However, it is a response to the question that was sent to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. I also note, by way of summary, that the materials pertaining to the sentencing of persons, the Probation Act and remand touch on some of the areas to which the Deputy referred.

On the issue of sentencing persons, there is no statutory power for a court to sentence a person to be detained in a Magdalene laundry or any other such institution as an alternative to imprisonment. However, it is known from the commission of inquiry into the reformatory and industrial school system in 1934 to 1936, known as the Cussen report, that judges were reluctant to send certain young women convicted of criminal offences to female prisons. Instead they would send the offender to a home conducted by a religious order, provided that the young woman and the religious order agreed. The Department does not have details of these cases and the records in question are court records.

On the issue of the application of the Probation Act, the Probation of Offenders Act provides that where a person is found to have committed a criminal act — I accept that the majority of the young women to whom the Deputy referred committed no such act — but the court is of the opinion that having regard to the age, health or mental condition of the person or because of extenuating circumstances it is inexpedient to inflict any punishment, the court can discharge the offender conditionally on the person entering into a recognisance to appear before it within a specified period not exceeding three years. In the case of District Court cases, no conviction was recorded unless the person did not comply with the conditions.

The research to date has established that in 1924 and subsequent years one of the conditions of probation that was imposed in a number of summary cases in Dublin was a requirement that the person reside in Our Lady's Home convent in Henrietta Street. This was not a Magdalene laundry per se although it did operate a laundry. The order in question received some payment from the then Department of Justice in the form of an annual grant to the Roman Catholic Prisoners (Female) Aid Society and subsequently directly to the home. A report exists on the conditions there and there also are references to probationers being sent to the Good Shepherd Convent, High Park, Drumcondra, the Good Shepherd Convent, Gloucester Street, the Sisters of Charity, Donnybrook and the Sisters of Mercy, Dún Laoghaire. In 1942 and 1943, 45 women were assigned by the courts to such homes under the Probation Act. It appears that these orders and arrangements were made by the courts without reference to any Department of State. The requirements of a probation order, including its duration, would be made known by the court to the offender. The records of such orders are court records.

As the Deputy is aware, the courts have the power to remand a person charged with criminal offences in custody pending trial and sentencing. Periods of remand normally are quite short. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform is responsible for ensuring that there are places of detention which can be used for remand purposes. In October 1960, the then Minister for Justice approved St. Mary Magdalen's Asylum, Sean McDermott Street and Our Lady's Home in Henrietta Street, Dublin for use as a remand institutions for girls between the ages of 16 and 21 years pursuant to the Criminal Justice Act 1960. Payments were made by the Department in respect of such cases.

Prior to 1960, the only option for the courts was to remand such persons to Mountjoy female prison. Incomplete records are held by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and in the archives relating to payments made in respect of persons remanded to St. Mary Magdalen Asylum, Sean McDermott Street, Dublin. The Minister is happy to allow access to them in the normal way. However, inquiries made to date indicate that many older files were destroyed by flooding and that it is the practice to destroy support documentation relating to payments after seven years. It is understood that part of the arrangements with the two institutions was that those remanded were to have same rights and privileges as provided for remand prisoners in Part III of the Rules for the Government of Prisons 1947.

In general, in the time available and on behalf of the Minister, it is not inappropriate to describe the situation as grim. I should also add that all the indications are that the majority of persons in such religious institutions did not come through the criminal justice system at all but entered due to poverty, family or other circumstances. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform has no records relating to such people.

The Deputy asked specifically about the position of the Department of Education and Science. The Minister for Education and Science has indicated that children who were sent to Magdalene laundries from institutions scheduled to the Residential Institutions Redress Act 2002 can be considered for financial redress if, as children, they were victims of abuse while resident in the laundries. However he does not intend to otherwise extend the redress scheme to such institutions. The Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform continues to liaise with the Department of Education and Science, given its co-ordinating role in the area of institutional child abuse and related matters.

On a personal level, I wish to add to this response. It is imperative that a humane approach be adopted to what was, as I noted at the outset and as I am sure the Deputy will agree, probably the bleakest period in Irish history, when any sense of our humanity appears to have been put aside. I apologise if issues in respect of the Department of Education and Science were not dealt with in this reply. I hope that if, at a future date——

Deputy Joan Burton

It would be helpful were I allowed another Adjournment from the Department of Education and Science and the Minister of State might speak to his colleagues in that regard.

Deputy Dick Roche

I certainly will put in a word for the Deputy and I acknowledge her point.

Deputy Joan Burton

I appreciate that and thank the Minister of State.

Foreign Conflicts.

Deputy Chris Andrews

On 10 December 2009, the British Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs issued technical advice on the labelling of produce grown in the occupied Palestinian territories. It was issued to allow British retailers and consumers to distinguish between products from Palestinian producers and those from Israeli settlements in the region. That act would give the consumer the ability to choose the produce he or she buys. I urge the Government to follow the British Government on this matter. Currently under European law, foods from outside the EU must be labelled with their country of origin. Products from the West Bank are not differentiated between settlement and Palestinian. However, under new, progressive UK guidelines, the British Government recommends indicating whether Palestinians or settlers made the product on the labels of West Bank produce.

Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are unlawful under international law. They contravene Article 49.6 of the Fourth Geneva Convention 1949, which prohibits an occupying power from transferring its own civilian population into occupied territory. The move by the British Government peacefully and constructively sends a message to Israel that Britain recognises that this is illegal behaviour and will provide its citizens with appropriate information to allow them make an informed decision now on whether they wish to purchase foods produced in illegal settlements.

Israel has shown flagrant disregard for both international law and the human rights of the Palestinians. According to Mr. John Ging, in 2009, the number of Gazans living in abject poverty trebled to 300,000, which equates to one in five residents of Gaza. Gaza is one of the poorest and most densely populated places on earth and, for the past three years, the Israelis have maintained a blockade of the Gaza Strip, which has slowly and systematically brought the residents and infrastructure of the area to their knees. The Government and the international community are failing in their moral obligation to prevent human rights abuses in this matter. Israel is breaking the law without any repercussions, but it is important to acknowledge that Ireland and the Minister for Foreign Affairs, in particular, has been a positive influence and been supportive of the peace process between the Israelis and the Palestinians. I ask that the Government implements this labelling process without delay as a gesture to the Palestinian people that they are recognised by the Irish people.

Deputy Dick Roche

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue because the plight of the Palestinian people has a particular resonance with the Irish people. I do not know why that is but I suspect it has something to do with our history. I am glad the Deputy recognised the Government has been unequivocal in its condemnation of what has happened there.

In December 2009, the UK Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, DEFRA, issued technical advice to importers and retailers concerning country of origin labelling for produce grown in the occupied Palestinian territories. The guidelines, which are voluntary, advise on distinguishing between produce grown by Palestinians and by Israeli settlers. This issue relates essentially to produce grown in the West Bank, rather than Gaza. There are no longer any Israeli settlements in Gaza. In addition, because of the ongoing blockade of Gaza, to which the Government and almost every Member are firmly opposed, virtually no Palestinian produce is being exported from Gaza.

The UK guidelines were formulated in response to pressure from consumers in the UK or from retailers who were themselves responding to consumer pressure. They involved a lengthy consultation process between the relevant UK Government departments, led by DEFRA, in which the Foreign and Commonwealth Office participated to advise on the political context. This was followed by the circulation of draft guidelines and a second round of consultations with retailers, importers, consumers and other interested stakeholders.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and I have discussed this and he has followed the UK consultation process with interest and he took careful note of the issuing of the new guidelines in December. It is important to make clear that there is nothing to stop Irish retailers now from clearly labelling goods to distinguish settlement produce. The example of the UK suggests, however, that many retailers feel more comfortable doing so, or requiring such labelling from their suppliers, when there are clear Government guidelines to follow, to which the Deputy referred.

The Government's position on settlements in the occupied territories has been clear and consistent. We consider all the territory occupied by Israel in 1967 to be still occupied territory, we do not recognise any purported annexations of such territory, and we regard all Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory as illegal and contrary to international law. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has repeatedly stated that Israel's failure to comply fully with its commitments under previous international agreements to halt all settlement expansion constitutes a major obstacle to the peace process and the achievement of a negotiated two-state solution. The Irish people have also made clear, most notably regarding the conflict in Gaza a year ago, their deep concern about the issue of Palestine and the continuing encroachments on the rights and lands of the Palestinian people.

Produce from the West Bank, including from settlements, is not and should not be labelled as "Product of Israel" but an identifier of "Produce of the West Bank", or something similar, could well mislead consumers into assuming they were buying goods from Palestinian producers. There is an element of a double edged sword to this. Many Irish consumers might well wish to be aware if they are buying produce originating in illegal settlements. I am, therefore, in favour of consumers being given the information to make this choice, and of similar guidelines issuing here. The Minister for Foreign Affairs is in agreement with this view. Product labelling is not the responsibility of the Department of Foreign Affairs but rather a matter primarily for other Departments. However, the Minister has requested officials in his Department to discuss this with the other relevant Departments with a view to following best practice observed in other countries.

Departmental Bodies.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise the following issue: the decision of the Minister for Education and Science to dissolve the National University of Ireland, NUI, without meaningful consultation with the four constituent universities, namely, UCC, UCD, NUI Galway and NUI Maynooth, and the five recognised colleges to which the NUI makes awards, namely, the Royal College of Surgeons, the National College of Art and Design, the Institute of Public Administration, the Shannon College of Hotel Management and the Milltown Institute; having regard to the absence of the publication of the draft legislation, qualifications (education and training) Bill, which is not due to be published until the end of 2010; in advance of the publication of the report of the Hunt group established in February 2009, which is reviewing the overall strategy for third level education; and in the absence of a vibrant and coherent Government policy to promote Ireland internationally as a centre of excellence for third level education.

In response to the original proposals in the McCarthy report, the NUI published a document in which it stated:

First, it would not save the State any significant moneys whatsoever. McCarthy claims that abolishing NUI would save the Exchequer €3 million annually. The annual State grant is just less than €13,000.

Secondly, it would seriously damage a valuable national brand at home and abroad. NUI degrees enjoy a high recognition nationally and internationally. This is important, particularly in medicine and health sciences. NUI institutions are increasingly successful both in attracting international students to Ireland and in delivering programmes on campuses abroad. Abolishing NUI would severely inhibit this growing internationalisation.

Thirdly, the member institutions of NUI all support its retention. The four constituent universities and the five recognised colleges all support the retention of NUI and the continuation of its role as the centre of a federal university.

Fourthly, the removal of the NUI role in awarding qualifications would not serve the interests of the NUI recognised colleges.

Fifthly, the abolition of NUI would dismantle a national institution, strongly associated with the State since its foundation in 1908, which has a proud record of support for the language, history and culture of Ireland.

The promised legislative changes will be incorporated in Seanad reform legislation under the guidance of a Department that cannot get its own legislative act together. The notion that it will hitch this wagon of institutional reform to the much more dubious train of Seanad reform is absolute nonsense.

What the Department of Education and Science has done is to create an atmosphere of complete instability and uncertainty as to the future of these institutions. It promised that change will be delivered through a most dubious vehicle, that of Seanad reform, which if it is to go the direction that all of us believe will probably be necessary will also require a constitutional referendum.

It is illogical and inexplicable that this instant and unilateral announcement was made yesterday at three minutes to midnight in terms of the consultation process. The chancellor and the registrar of the NUI were summoned at 11 a.m. yesterday by the officials of the Minister for Education and Science to be told by the Minister that this was going ahead. Many people in some of our key universities received no advance knowledge that this was likely to happen.

The Minister of State has a good record on educational matters and by virtue of his professional background has a very clear understanding of this. If we want to become a knowledge economy, which is a shared aspiration throughout the House, and if we want to use the resources of our educational institutions which have an international reputation then dismantling the brand of the National University of Ireland is not the way to go. Already, damage has been done by the Department of Education and Science in scaling down the marketing efforts associated with promoting Ireland as a centre of international educational excellence. The education Ireland Bill has been demoted to the point where it will not be brought forward. This admission has been made by the Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Batt O'Keeffe. In addition, his suggestion that responsibility for the marketing abroad of Irish educational excellence at third level, which came to his attention during a recent visit to China, should be carried out by Enterprise Ireland has not been picked up by that body.

To add insult to injury, and chaos and uncertainty to a clear well-established situation which the current occupants want to retain and which on its abolition will deliver no saving of any significance to the State, the Minister has introduced this announcement and I ask him to withdraw it and to reconsider what the future should be.

Deputy Dick Roche

I have a lengthy reply from the Department of Education and Science but I will draw the Minister's attention to the concerns expressed by Deputy Quinn. I am taking the Adjournment matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy O'Keeffe, who apologises for his inability to be here.

As Deputy Quinn is well aware, the Government has been considering the role of the NUI in the context both of the establishment of the new qualifications and quality assurance and the recommendation on dissolution contained in the McCarthy report. The qualifications and quality assurance landscape was examined with a view to simplifying the many relationships between colleges and agencies and the Government recently approved the general scheme of the legislation bringing the functions of the National Qualifications Authority of Ireland, the Irish Universities Quality Board, HETAC and FETAC into a new single agency. I must say that the proliferation of agencies has left me a little in the cold.

In the October 2008 budget, the Government announced that the NUI's functions would be considered in the context of the establishment of an amalgamated qualifications and quality assurance agency and there was a consultation paper issued on the issues and submissions were received. At the same time a consultative process on the future of the higher education sector has been under way. There has been ample opportunity for all interested parties to make their views known.

Since the enactment of the Universities Act 1997, the NUI has not been a federal university in any real sense. While the NUI supplies some shared services, all significant powers ordinarily associated with a university are directly assigned to the four constituent universities. They make their own awards and have their own quality assurance procedures which are externally reviewed not by the NUI but by the Irish Universities Quality Board. While the NUI senate provides a forum for discussion on most major issues the universities themselves make the decisions.

New partnerships between universities and institutions are evidence that the agenda on collaboration between higher education institutions has moved on and that the NUI is becoming less relevant. The current arrangement where a separate awarding and quality assurance framework is maintained by NUI for only five recognised colleges is not sustainable. Some of these recognised colleges are exploring alternatives themselves. The recognised colleges could enter a quality assurance and award making relationship with the new agency or with an existing university.

The dissolution of the NUI is not primarily a matter of saving money. The net savings arising from dissolution may be in the region of €1 million. Rather it is a matter of being unable to support the continuation of the NUI to carry out its remaining functions, the bulk of which will now most likely be performed by the constituent universities themselves. The Minister for Education and Science concluded that having a separate institution make awards for a small and reducing number of recognised colleges and to deliver certain shared services for some of the universities is neither strategic nor sustainable. It is in this context that the Government has decided to dissolve the National University of Ireland. There is no need to delay while the higher education strategy is being finalised.

As Deputy Quinn stated, the NUI has made an enormous contribution over the past 100 years to our cultural life and national development. The decision to dissolve the NUI was not taken lightly. The NUI brand enjoys respect and recognition domestically and internationally. The awards made by the NUI's constituent universities are entitled awards of the NUI, and will continue to be so. The Minister is open to discussing with the constituent universities an appropriate mechanism to ensure the protection of the integrity and international reputation of the NUI degree, which is the core issue raised by Deputy Quinn.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

That is nonsense.

Deputy Dick Roche

The legislation amalgamating the qualifications and quality assurance bodies will include provision for the amalgamated agency to establish a code of practice and quality mark for the provision of educational services to international students. Education and training providers will be able to apply for the quality mark based on their compliance with the code of practice, which will cover such issues as treatment of fees and support services for international students. Additional measures will apply to providers of English language courses. The quality mark will be a valuable promotional tool for education and training providers, and it is a necessary tool.

In addition, under new arrangements recently put in place by the Minister to promote Ireland as a centre for international education, Enterprise Ireland has been given operational responsibility, under his authority, for the marketing and promotion of the "Education Ireland" brand overseas and the development, promotion and marketing of international higher education. I was surprised at the Deputy's comments in this regard because on a number of recent visits I was aware of Enterprise Ireland having an input. It may differ from place to place, I am not sure.

Co-ordination of our national effort is hugely important. That is why the Minister has established a high level group on international education, which will co-ordinate the efforts of the education sector and the national agencies. This group will meet for the first time next week.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

I think that answers my point.

Deputy Dick Roche

Maybe so.

The Minister is confident these initiatives will further strengthen Ireland's reputation for educational excellence and help to ensure that we can take fullest advantage of the growing market in international education.

Work will now begin on determining, in consultation with the NUI and the constituent universities, the most appropriate arrangements for distributing NUI functions. On the question of the NUI's role in the election of members of Seanad Éireann, the Minister will work closely with his colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government in the context of wider plans for Seanad reform. Like Deputy Quinn I have some experience of this and I wish them both well. It is intended that appropriate legislative provision for dissolution will be made in legislation amalgamating the qualifications and quality assurance bodies. That is from where the reference to Seanad Éireann comes. I will ensure that the Minister is aware of the Deputy's concerns because I believe that the NUI has made a very valuable contribution to graduates. However, I must also make the point that I believe the educational landscape in Ireland has changed out of all recognition in recent years.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Yes.

Deputy Dick Roche

We provide world-class education and whatever institution looks after the quality mark and the marketing we should get on with it because phenomenal opportunities exist for Ireland.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday, 26 January 2010.