Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 Feb 2010

Vol. 703 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach's Government has failed the country and the people. We now have a situation where 437,000 people are on the live register, with a further 70,000 projected to lose their jobs this year; credit is not flowing from banks to business; the public service is facing serious unrest because of the Government's economic policy of cutting wages and writing blank cheques for banks and people are being indiscriminately shot on our streets, all of which is causing serious anger and frustration. This is not good governance or leadership and it will not work. The people know it will not work.

The Taoiseach leads a Government that is riven by internal tension and divided by suspicion and a lack of trust. Yesterday, we witnessed the dignified resignation of former Minister of State, Deputy Trevor Sargent. Contrast that with the actions last week of the Taoiseach in forcing his party and the Green Party to defend the indefensible former Minister for Defence, Deputy Willie O'Dea, and his attempting to justify the assertion that Deputy O'Dea had lived up to the standards he set for him. Deputy Sargent recognised he had made a serious error of judgment. In light of the spectacle witnessed in this Chamber last week, will the Taoiseach accept he made a serious error of judgment in terms of the manner in which he conducted the exit of Deputy O'Dea?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I totally reject the usual negative narrative that comes from the Leader of the Opposition.

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

The Taoiseach is in a rejection mood.

The Taoiseach

He comes into this House on a continual basis and speaks as he does when in fact he does not have a policy framework that is credible. What we have——

Deputy Seymour Crawford

The Government has no policy at all.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It has no policy on anything.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Durkan to allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

——are policies that are being implemented. They are gaining credibility financially and domestically and we intend to continue to pursue them so that growth can return to this economy and recovery can be effected.

On the other matter, the contrast I saw yesterday was the dignity of Deputy Sargent's statement as compared with what was subsequently——

Deputy Pádraic McCormack

Compared to the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

——suggested outside this House by Deputy Kenny's party and others——

Deputy Paul Connaughton

Compared to what the Taoiseach did the week before.

The Taoiseach

——in suggesting involvement by this party in these matters. That is the contrast I saw.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Fianna Fáil would never stoop so low.

The Taoiseach

It was a pretty pathetic and hamfisted attempt, I must say.

A Deputy

Coincidental, was it?

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Scurrilous.

The Taoiseach

Just as there was an acknowledgement by Deputy Sargent regarding the particular correspondence to which he adverted, the resignation statement of Deputy O'Dea continues to defend his position on the basis, as clearly stated, that he holds the position that there was no intention on his part to mislead in any way. He acknowledges also that his continued presence in Government would have had the regrettable conclusion of destabilising the Government and, therefore, resigned.

On the position in regard to what happened yesterday, Deputy Kenny has a lot to answer for in terms of how his people behaved.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Government has a lot to answer for in terms of where this country is now and the Taoiseach knows that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Kenny.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Even the Government back benchers are laughing at the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kehoe please allow Deputy Kenny to respond, without interruption, please.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Look in the mirror.

Deputy Olivia Mitchell

It is all our fault.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Kenny without interruption, please.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The back benchers are laughing nervously.

Deputy Enda Kenny

That is the greatest load of nonsense I have heard from the Taoiseach in a long time.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The question I asked of the Taoiseach is whether he accepts he made a serious error of judgment in attempting to defend the indefensible in the case of former Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach forced his Government, members of the Fianna Fáil back benches and the Green Party, to come in here and publicly defend former Minister for Defence, Deputy O'Dea who, the Taoiseach stated, had lived up to the standards he set for him. Yesterday, we witnessed a deep contrast in the dignified resignation of former Minister of State, Deputy Sargent. I have no interest in the internal machinations of the Fianna Fáil Party, be they valid or otherwise.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

The Deputy is too busy with his own.

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Taoiseach stated that Fine Gael has put forward no policy framework. I would like to challenge him on two issues. The Fine Gael Party has put forward a radical proposal which I know the Green Party is interested in, namely, providing 100,000——

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The Labour Party is against it.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——jobs right across the spectrum of renewables energy, broadband, water and so on. We have costed this detailed plan and put it forward. The Taoiseach stated last July that he would respond to it but never did.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

That is a serious policy that could result in the creation of 100,000 jobs for people right across the country.

A Deputy

Hear, hear.

Deputy Enda Kenny

Fianna Fáil has forced the Green Party to adopt its economic strategy of cutting wages and writing blank cheques for banks. I understand that the Government proposes to invest up to €6 billion of taxpayers' money in the dead bank that is Anglo Irish Bank to pay off bond speculators and investors. There is an alternative. The Government can put that money into a stimulus package or it can break up Anglo Irish Bank into a good bank-bad bank, a concept put forward by Fine Gael more than 12 months ago.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Pay the €64 million in deposits.

Deputy Enda Kenny

This would save the taxpayer serious money and would allow credit to flow to businesses——

Deputy Noel Dempsey

Ask the taxpayer to put in the €64 million.

Deputy Enda Kenny

——in County Meath and elsewhere where jobs as being lost even as we speak.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

What about roads?

Deputy Enda Kenny

The Fine Gael Party has put forward a serious policy framework for job creation and security and new careers. The Taoiseach will not recognise this because he is locked into the tribal strait jacket of Fianna Fáil.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Noel Dempsey

From where did Deputy Kenny get that line?

Deputy Enda Kenny

Is the Government prepared to break up Anglo Irish Bank, save the taxpayer money and provide a bad bank-good bank, the concept put forward by Fine Gael more than 12 months ago?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Come out with your hands up.

Deputy P. J. Sheehan

It is never too late to clear the plate.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

The extraordinary basis for Fine Gael's economic policy is that its wishes, primarily, to raise bonds to fund all of these jobs of which Deputy Kenny speaks while at the same time default on bond holders. That is its idea of how one raises bonds. Fine Gael has as much understanding of——

Deputy Denis Naughten

Answer the question.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Creed, please allow the Taoiseach to continue without interruption.

The Taoiseach

On the whole question of the establishment of NAMA and it becoming operational, the purpose of this is to ensure we have access to funding and that we can reduce the cost of funding——

Deputy Paul Connaughton

When?

The Taoiseach

——to banks so that they can provide funds to the wider economy.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

They are not doing it.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach, without interruption please.

The Taoiseach

The Fine Gael Party has not supported——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Never mind Fine Gael, talk about Fianna Fáil.

The Taoiseach

——one tough decision taken by this Government in the past 12 months.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

They are opposed to everything.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gilmore.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Gilmore without interruption please.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

The Government got its answer.

Deputy Seymour Crawford

What about the Minister for Transport, Deputy Dempsey, and the roads?

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

There are 436,000 people out of work. Businesses are trying to keep going this morning in circumstances where they do not have credit from financial institutions. Families throughout the country are frightened about the future, whether they can pay the mortgage, what they can do about their levels of personal debt and whether they will have work by the end of the year. Young people are worried whether they will get a job when they graduate. That is on top of the general concern in the population about what we will end up having to pay and for how long we will have to pay for the banking crisis, NAMA and all those things.

The one thing that is needed in those circumstances is a functioning Government in which the people can have confidence. By any measure — there have now been several measures — the Government led by the Taoiseach does not enjoy the confidence of the public. Some of that is understandable. Fianna Fáil has been in office for 13 years. There is a fatigue and staleness that comes with every government in office for that length of time. It is somewhat punch drunk from the economic events of the past year and a half. In dealing with the economic crisis it is hopelessly conflicted between on the one hand, having to take the decisions necessary to deal with it and on the other hand, covering its tracks for the role the Government played in causing it in the first place. That is particularly evident in the Taoiseach's own case where he has an understandable concern to cover the tracks of his term as Minister for Finance.

There is increasing evidence of incompetence in the Government. We saw it last week with the Tánaiste's mishandling of the aeronautics jobs at Dublin Airport. The events of the past week have shown that the Government is seriously divided. It has struck the iceberg. It is now only a matter of time. We can have the predictable partisan arguments across the Chamber, but there is a service the Taoiseach needs to do for the country, which is to wind up the Government as quickly as possible and give the people an opportunity of making a decision about who should govern the country in these difficult times. If they chose to re-elect the present Government, so be it, but they should at least be given the opportunity.

We are in very difficult, strange and worrying times for people. It is not fair or responsible for the Taoiseach with a battered, broken, tired and now divided Government to continue to hang on to office in circumstances and times when the people need a competent functioning government in which they can have confidence and one that has a mandate — something the Government no longer has.

The Taoiseach

Again we have Deputy Gilmore getting up this morning to give his view of the world. It is clear from the past six months' debate on the economy that there is not a coherent alternative to the capacity of the Government.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Where did we hear that before?

Deputy Michael Creed

The Taoiseach would not know coherence if it slapped him in the face.

The Taoiseach

What is clear is that the Government is demonstrating its preparedness to take the decisions that are necessary and that there are no circumstances in which support will be provided from the opposite side of the House, but that will not deter us.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Wrong decision.

The Taoiseach

Far from being tired, let me assure the Deputy that we are ready to fulfil our mandate for the remainder of this term, bring recovery and growth back to the economy. The Deputy can talk down the economy and the Government all he likes. We are going to do that with or without his help.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Sad.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Gilmore.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Throughout history every ruler, where power has gone to his head, believes that nobody else can rule or govern. That is what we are now getting——

(Interruptions).

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

——from the Taoiseach and from Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputy Dooley was not that smart on Vincent Browne's television programme last night.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Let me tell the Taoiseach where he is wrong. The Opposition has supported the Government. We supported it on Europe. We supported it on the necessity to make the fiscal adjustment of €4 billion.

Deputy Dermot Ahern

It did not.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Government Deputies are very good at the political debate, but let us stick with the facts. We supported it on the fiscal adjustment, on the necessity to reform public services and in respect of this country's international reputation in every meeting and discussion we have had — I am sure the same is true of Deputy Kenny — with the European Central Bank, the OECD and the European Commission, we have talked up our economy.

Deputy Thomas Byrne

The Labour Party opposed everything.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

We have made it clear that in circumstances where there were a change of Government, we would put the national interest first. The Taoiseach has been blessed with a responsible Opposition and yet——

(Interruptions).

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

——where we have opposed the Government we have been absolutely right. When this party opposed the blanket guarantee for the banks we were right.

The Taoiseach

The Labour Party was never right.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

If that guarantee had not applied to Anglo Irish Bank, as it should not have, we would not now be stuck with the enormous bill of thousands of millions of euro of taxpayers' money——

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Deputy should tell us where we would be.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

——that is going to have to go into that.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

When we told the Government almost a year ago that the most prudent way of dealing with the banking crisis was the temporary nationalisation of the banks, the Taoiseach rubbished it. The Government has ended up with the situation where it will have nationalisation anyway by the back door in a dragged out way that is most expensive for the taxpayer. The Taoiseach's problem is that he has not been listening to the proposals coming from the Opposition parties and has not been acting accordingly. The Taoiseach has been taking decisions that are motivated by his desire to cover the tracks for his role and his party's role in the mismanagement of the economy in the past 12 years in creating the property bubble and the hand-in-glove approach it had down the years with bankers and developers.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I reject all that again.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Why would he not?

The Taoiseach

One of the problems of being in opposition too long is that Opposition parties believe that they alone possess the right to define what is the national interest. I know what is the national interest in discharging my responsibilities.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Self-service.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Taoiseach is another victim.

The Taoiseach

I reject all the assertions the Deputy has been making about my position and my disposition in dealing with the issues that faced the country since I took office.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Taoiseach created them.

The Taoiseach

My role, just as much as the Deputy's role would be if he had the honour, is to seek to defend the national interest of the country. The Deputy will not define it for me as if he had a higher motive than I have.

Deputy Brian Hayes

Is the Taoiseach claiming he did not cause the problem?

The Taoiseach

That motive has meant that the policies we have brought forward have sought to stabilise the crisis situation we were facing, have obtained international support for so doing and are determined to continue with a consistent approach that will bring recovery. There is considerable revisionism going on——

Deputy Joan Burton

No there is not.

The Taoiseach

——as to what his party's position was during the good times when deficits would have been far higher coming into this situation. Both in terms of its policy framework and what it proposed coming into elections, let the record show where the economy would have been——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We know about the Taoiseach's position.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Durkan, please.

The Taoiseach

——had we followed its proposals, when its Members were saying to me when I was Minister for Finance that I was like Scrooge and was not spending enough money on health and education.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

Now we have the revisionists seeking to suggest they were the responsible ones if only they had been around. The fact is that during those times we created 700,000 jobs. During those times we had growth in the economy.

Deputy Denis Naughten

The Government has lost half of them now.

The Taoiseach

We now need to ensure we effect recovery and rework the economy again. That is what we intend to do. I will not accept any suggestion from the Deputy, however populist it might appear.

Deputy Michael Creed

Arrogance.

Deputy Brian Hayes

The Taoiseach just does not get it.

The Taoiseach

The idea that the financial viability of the country would have been best served by not proceeding with the bank guarantee on 29 and 30 September 2008 is so far off the mark that it is unbelievable. It is true that everyone in the Central Bank of Ireland and all advice to the Government at that time related to the systemic nature of those institutions.

Deputy Eamon Gilmore

Is that true?

Deputy Joan Burton

It is not true.

The Taoiseach

That is the situation. There is no suggestion from the Deputy or anybody else that would suggest that we could get easier access to funds by not having that bank guarantee in place. In fact the bank guarantee has provided us with the means by which banks have been able to continue to operate and has reduced the cost of access to funding. In addition, the banks are paying for the guarantee. Despite all Deputy Gilmore's efforts to suggest that the Labour Party has an alternative credible model, it does not because the basic facts he is proposing would have meant meltdown within the Irish financial system, and that is indisputable.

Deputy Paul Connaughton

No, that is not correct.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions. We now move on to questions to An Taoiseach.