Vol. 717 No. 4
1 Deputy Alan Shatter asked the Minister for Justice and Law Reform when the Garda file on the investigation into Anglo Irish Bank will be sent to the Director of Public Prosecutions; when the Garda investigation into events in Anglo Irish Bank will be completed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35525/10]
The reprehensible events at Anglo Irish Bank have caused enormous damage to our country. There is a clear and overwhelming public interest that, where it is shown that anyone involved in those events broke the law, they should face justice. Neither I nor the Government can seek to interfere, direct investigations or decide whether people should face charges. That is a cornerstone of our democratic system.
Given the grave issues at stake, it is right that I have sought to be kept fully briefed by the Garda Commissioner on the investigation. I will tell the House what I can about it. Of its nature, what I can say at this stage is limited. It is imperative that neither I nor indeed any Member of this House say anything that would have the effect, however unintended, of helping people to evade justice.
The investigation is a joint one, under the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement. It is headed by an assistant commissioner and the Director of Corporate Enforcement. The Director of Public Prosecutions has retained two senior counsel and one junior counsel to advise the investigators. Some 27 gardaí and 16 officers of the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement are assigned to the investigation.
This is the most complex investigation of its kind ever undertaken in the State. There are ten strands to it. It requires the analysis of a huge range of records — more than 100,000 documents, including e-mails and telephone and bank records. More than 350 people have been interviewed, and inevitably in a case like this, their witness statements can be extremely lengthy. Search warrants and court orders have been executed and persons arrested. Inquiries are taking place outside the State.
It is clear, therefore, that a huge amount of work has been undertaken. Investigators must follow every avenue to which their inquiries lead, so it is not possible to be precise as to when their work will be completed. I have been assured by the Garda Commissioner that the Garda Síochána has no higher priority than completing this investigation. For his part, the Commissioner meets regularly with his officers involved, ensuring that at all times they have every resource they require.
I well understand the fury of people at what happened at the bank. There is understandable indignation that no one has yet been brought before the courts. It would, however, do a huge disservice to those people to pretend that there is some simple or quick way of dealing with this matter that will be effective. What is important is that what happened is systematically and forensically investigated as quickly as possible, with a view to presenting cases to the Director of Public Prosecutions. That is exactly what is happening without fear or favour.
It is important too that we, as legislators, learn any lessons we can. That is why I asked the Garda Commissioner to have a look at the law in this area in May, based on the experience of this and other cases, and to make any recommendations for change. Company law and the law governing financial institutions are not primarily matters for me but my Department has been in contact with the Departments of Finance and Enterprise, Trade and Innovation on this. Those Departments have contacted my Department about the preparation of the White Paper on Crime, with a view to devising proposals in the area of white collar crime. We will publish a discussion paper on white collar crime in the not too distant future. We are also open to any suggestions from Members opposite on changes in this area.
Does the Minister acknowledge there is widespread public anger and incredulity at the utter failure of the State, so far, to initiate criminal proceedings of any nature in respect of the Anglo Irish Bank fiasco? Does the Minister agree the events in which Anglo Irish Bank was involved, including exotic share dealings and the transfer of funds intended to maintain share value on artificial levels and to conceal the insolvency of the bank, provide fertile ground for the taking of criminal prosecutions? In the context of the investigation being conducted by the Garda Síochána and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, can the Minister tell the House if all former board members of Anglo Irish Bank and current and former employees have fully co-operated in the provision of all essential information and documentation? Can the Minister clarify whether, in the course of the investigation, the possibility of criminal prosecution has been complicated or compromised by any suggestion that the former Financial Regulator, the former Governor of the Central Bank, officials in the Department of Finance or any Minister had prior knowledge of the peculiarities of the share dealings and financial structures in Anglo Irish Bank or sanctioned some of those that have given rise to the enormous problems with which the State is confronted?
The independent investigating authority — the Garda Síochána and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement — is to carry out this investigation without fear or favour. To the best of my knowledge that is happening. I can understand the fury and outrage of the public. No one is more outraged than members of the Cabinet, who must deal with this issue on a daily basis since the crisis arose. Unfortunately, outrage is no good on a book of evidence, as Deputy Shatter knows. Outrage does not prove a criminal offence. What does so is the forensic examination of the scale going on, with more than 100,000 documents, telephone records, bank records in electronic format and hard copy, and 350 people providing witness statements. Many of those had legal advice before making statements. In one instance, the statement is 150 pages long. Deputy Shatter can see the enormity of this investigation. The case of an individual is something to be determined by the investigating authorities, as is the matter of from whom they should take statements and demand co-operation. If people are not co-operating, and I have no information on this, it would be an offence under the law. Where there is an element of criminal law and corporate law, the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement and the Garda Síochána are dealing with those issues and they have the best legal advice available to them as the investigation continues.
Does the Minister not understand that when someone who has not paid a fine of €250 ends up in Mountjoy prison, someone who drives a truck into the gates of Leinster House ends up before the courts within 24 hours and bankers responsible for bringing the State to its knees and costing taxpayers €50 billion have not been brought before the courts it genuinely gives rise to a sense of public outrage, utter confusion and undermines confidence in our legal system? Can the Minister clarify that the information sought from the Garda Commissioner about our laws to deal with white collar crime and the self-serving announcement made by the Minister, Deputy Gormley, a few days ago that an internal group would examine the extent to which our laws are adequate in this area is an admission that, despite 13 years of Fianna Fáil in government, we do not have laws of sufficient rigour to ensure bankers responsible for the debacle and catastrophe with which we are confronted are brought before our court in the same manner as bankers are brought before the courts, prosecuted and convicted in the United States? It is an example of the gross failure of successive Fianna Fáil Governments in this State.
I assure the Deputy there will be no political policing as long as I am in this job. Deputy Shatter would correctly criticise me if I were seen to interfere directly in this investigation. I and the Government share the outrage and fury at what has gone on. In our democratic society there is a system where, independent of Government and political influence, these cases are examined. That is happening and it is the way it should be.
It is taking too long.
I will not interfere in that. It may be taking a long time but Deputy Shatter made reference to a number of cases that were relatively simple. In this case there are ten different strands of investigation. More than 115,000 e-mails and documents have passed between various institutions and individuals and they have to be examined.
The Minister should proceed to the next question.
What about the prior knowledge of the Financial Regulator?
That is the extent——
We need to move on. Ceist a dó. We are four minutes over time on the question.
Any issue will be put before the court if, ultimately, the Garda Commissioner and the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement can put together a case that is systematically and forensically examined.
I have called ceist a dó.
That is the way it should be.
So there is no truth in what was told to the newspapers.
2 Deputy Pat Rabbitte asked the Minister for Justice and Law Reform the latest information available to him on the security threat posed by dissident paramilitary organisations; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [35523/10]
The increase in activities by the groups in question in recent months is obviously a matter of concern for the Government. I know that all Members of the House will join me in condemning these groups without reserve. We should be clear that these people are no more than criminals using violent means in pursuit of their own ends. They have no support in the wider community for their criminal ends or their violent means.
The Garda Commissioner has made it clear that although these paramilitaries continue to pose a threat, as is clearly evidenced by incidents in Northern Ireland in recent months and days and the rise in the threat level in Britain, the Garda is working continually to disrupt and to foil their plans and activities. My advice from the Garda authorities is that although the numbers involved in these groups are relatively small, they have nonetheless increased their capabilities and activities in recent months. The pattern of dissident acts in recent months has been to target members of the security forces in Northern Ireland, particularly with repeated attempts on the lives of Catholic PSNI officers.
I can assure the House that the Garda continues to co-operate seamlessly with the PSNI in actively pursuing the dissidents. The Garda Commissioner has stated that he regards an attack on the PSNI as an attack on the Garda Síochána, an attitude shared by the Government. The Chief Constable of the PSNI has also referred to the excellent operational relationship between the two forces. This close level of operational co-operation has been instrumental in recent months in preventing atrocities and saving lives, and it will continue to be an essential element in bringing those criminals to book.
It is only right to record the fact that the security services in both jurisdictions have had significant successes in preventing atrocities. Since the start of this year the Garda has arrested over 50 people believed to be members of these groups and 22 are at present before the courts. Facing up to the dissident threat is a priority for the Garda Síochána and, in support of this aim, the Government has maintained a high level of resources for the force, particularly in terms of keeping to the approved numbers of operational personnel. I am assured by the Garda Commissioner that he has the resources he needs at his disposal in this regard.
The Government remains committed to upholding the democratically expressed desire of the overwhelming majority of people on this island to build a future based on peace and to consign all paramilitary violence to the past. I know that this commitment will be shared by all in this House. We will continue, in co-operation with the authorities in Northern Ireland and Great Britain, to spare no effort to ensure that those thugs who seek to subvert the democratic will of the people will face the full rigours of the law.
I join with the Minister in deploring what happened on Monday night. Do I take it from what he has said that the dissident groups have the capacity not just to create destruction and mayhem, but to injure and take human life? We know from experience that is only a matter of time before human life will be put at risk, whatever their intention.
One reads reports about training bases and camps in the Republic being used by those same groups. Does the Minister know anything about the bomb on Monday night in terms of whether it was travelled across the Border? It is the case that policing and general security along the Border has been eased. In normal circumstances we would all welcome that, but is the Minister satisfied that in the context of the dissident groups providing a more substantial threat than might have been anticipated at the time that there is adequate Border security in operation?
The situation in particular on the northern side has eased in terms of the militarisation to which we were used in the past 30 years, but it is safe to say that there has not been an easing of the Garda focus on the side of the Border. That is instanced by the fact that this year alone 50 people have been arrested and 22 people are before the courts. Recently at my insistence the Garda Síochána, in conjunction with a number of other State agencies, commenced multi-agency checkpoints along the Border. I was a great supporter of that particular initiative when I was Minister for Social and Family Affairs. Recently the Garda Síochána instigated those in an effort to disrupt not just ordinary smuggling, but also the dissident groups. I understand they have been another successful operational tool.
Deputy Rabbitte inquired about the capability of dissident groups. There is doubt that even though their numbers are still relatively small they have gained in capability and there is more sharing of information between some of the groups which did not happen heretofore.
On the question of training camps in the Republic while one can never say that this does not happen, the Garda Síochána has been very successful in recent years in dealing with the so-called dissidents. Much of the reason for this is that most people do not have the type of support that their predecessors in the provisional IRA had across this island.
Much as we would like it to be the case, it is not quite true to say that there is no support for these groupings. I read about the research done by a Liverpool academic who presented it to Queens University Belfast recently which indicates that, regrettably, there appears to be more support among the Nationalist community for them than we would have thought.
In terms of the identity and flags of convenience being used by these groups, do I understand that other than the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA as we have known them, the most deadly group at the moment is flying under the flag of Óglaigh na hÉireann which is essentially a collection of former Provo activists? Is the Minister concerned that such information is correct? Is there information relating to the threat in Britain from the same groups?
I have seen press reports on that particular research. It is safe to say that it does refer to the support being small by any standard. The author refers to small-scale support. None of us is complacent in that regard. It is not correct to equate it to the type of support the Provisional IRA had especially in the North during its campaign of 30 years because the majority of people North and South do not give logistical support to the so-called dissidents.
For the record, I am not equating it.
Sure. The issue of the threat in Britain is not regarded as severe as that to the North of Ireland. The threat in the North has been there for some time. That is the considered view of the Garda Síochána and the PSNI Chief Constable. Equally, I know from the Garda Commissioner who is in contact with the security services in Britain that he is satisfied with the raising of the level of the threat to Britain. Our focus on this island should primarily be on this island. What was the middle question asked by Deputy Rabbitte?
It was on Óglaigh na hÉireann.
I do not want to go into the different groups as they are disparate but there is no doubt that there is some cross-fertilisation between two of the major groups. That is something the Garda Síochána is examining very closely.
3 Deputy Alan Shatter asked the Minister for Justice and Law Reform the circumstances which resulted in a Garda file containing documentation relating to an investigation into an alleged criminal gang being left by a member of An Garda Síochána on a premises (details supplied); the length of time the file remained on the premises; the action taken by An Garda Síochána to recover the file and in respect of the member of An Garda Síochána who abandoned the file on the premises; the steps taken if any to ensure all such files are properly secured so that such an incident can never again be repeated [35527/10]
I understand from the Garda Commissioner that, in the course of preparing a comprehensive investigation file into the criminal activities of an organised criminal group for consideration by the DPP, a small but nonetheless important portion of the investigation file was brought under gardaí supervision to the premises in question.
During the course of the gardaí visit to the premises, and while a designated member of staff was dealing with the printing request, members of the Garda Síochána became aware that this person communicated with a third party without the consent of the Garda Síochána. The gardaí present on the premises took immediate action to eliminate any risk of further exposure of this portion of the Garda investigation file.
The involvement of the designated member of staff with the third party in this matter is the subject of a continuing Garda investigation, and it would be inappropriate to comment further on this at this time. While the Commissioner is satisfied that the members of the Garda Síochána concerned acted in good faith in this matter, he is taking all steps necessary to avoid any recurrence of such an incident, including the issuing of a Garda Headquarters directive instructing members on the appropriate measures to be taken in compiling investigation files.
Could the Minister confirm that the file was taken to a premises called Read's Print and Design on Nassau Street? Could he clarify why the file was taken there? Is he suggesting to the House it was deliberately taken there by a group of gardaí to have the file photocopied or was it simply absent mindedly left in the shop and subsequently the gardaí raided the shop to get it back?
I do not want to go into specific details of the premises because a criminal investigation is ongoing. It is safe to say the gardaí involved in the preparation of the file for the DPP decided to bring it to an outside printing operation. That was not done because of a lack of resources, the gardaí have a full printing and photocopying capability in the office, but a decision was made for operational reasons. This will not happen again because the Garda Commissioner has issued a directive that all future printing of these files, except in exceptional circumstances where the Garda premises does not have the proper capability, will be carried out in-house.
Will the Minister confirm this event involved members of the Garda Organised Crime Unit, a unit that is supposed to investigate gangland crime? Could he confirm the file was being prepared for furnishing to the Director of Public Prosecutions and that there is a public need to maintain confidentiality on such files? Will he clarify how, in any circumstances, any garda could have regarded it as appropriate to bring the file to a public shop to have pages photocopied by staff in that shop? Could the Minister finally agree that with the difficulties we have with gangland crime, and the extent of the collapse of law and order and the number of people shot on our streets, it is an extraordinary example of complete incompetence that this occurred? What is the Minister doing to ensure this is not repeated? Have the people involved been disciplined in any way?
The Garda Commissioner has issued a directive to ensure this does not happen again. Clearly there was an element of human error in this.
It is more like the Keystone Cops, it is extraordinary.
The Garda Commissioner is satisfied the members involved acted in good faith and it was a human error. I can say categorically that this will never happen again. Those involved are now wiser. It was not just a matter of photocopying because the Garda Síochána has such facilities, it was to present the file in a better format for presentation to the DPP. This file was not left on the premises, it was under the custody of the gardaí who noticed a member of staff of the premises communicating with a third party and immediately the gardaí intervened and took back the file. The Garda Commissioner has ensured by the directive he issued that this will not happen again.
It is scandalous and it happened on the Minister's watch.
