Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 31 Mar 2011

Vol. 729 No. 1

Order of Business

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 6b, election of Leas-Cheann Comhairle; No. 7, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2011; No. 8, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a regulation of the European Parliament and the Council on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters (recast); No. 6c, motion re conduct of Member; No. 1, Communications Regulation (Postal Services) Bill 2010 [Seanad] — Second Stage, to adjourn at 1.30 p.m., if not previously concluded; No. 11, statements on “Making Committees work in the 31st Dáil”; and No. 11a, statements on banks recapitalisation and restructuring.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. and business shall be interrupted at the conclusion of No. 11a; Nos. 6b, 7 and 8 shall be decided without debate; the proceedings on No. 6c shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes and the speech shall be confined to Deputy Michael Lowry who shall not exceed 30 minutes; the proceedings on No. 11 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. and the following arrangements shall apply: the statement of a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group who shall be called upon in that order shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, the statement of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, Members may share time, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed 5 minutes; and the proceedings on No. 11a shall be taken at 4.45 p.m. and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 85 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: statements shall be confined to a Minister or Minister of State and the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group who shall be called upon in that order, may share their time and shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case, and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are five proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 4.45 p.m. agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 6b, 7 and 8, motions re election of Leas-Cheann Comhairle, proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2011 and proposed approval by Dáil Éireann for a regulation of the European Parliament and the Council on jurisdiction and the recognition and enforcement of judgments in civil and commercial matters, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 6c, motion re conduct of Member, agreed to?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is not agreed. The agreement reached among the Whips was that the motion would be taken without debate. It is scandalous that the Government is once again prepared to accommodate Deputy Michael Lowry for a further 30 minutes. The Deputy has been facilitated twice and has had an hour and a half at his disposal to put his position on the record. The House has heard that position, but clearly does not share that view. The motion will be taken without debate and it would be quite outrageous and unacceptable yet again to give 30 minutes to Deputy Lowry, so we object to this.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I articulate our complete surprise at this, because there was unanimous agreement among the Whips that this motion would be taken without debate. There was no indication to us, until this morning's Order Paper, that there was a change. It is not the way to do business. If the Whips agree something on behalf of all of us, then it should hold. I am extremely surprised that this has now occurred and at the manner in which it has occurred. I think it is wrong.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

This is a complete surprise to us as well. This issue was specifically discussed at the Whip's meeting, and we were categorically told by the Government side that no time would be made available, but no communication has been made to us at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

At the beginning of statements on the report of the Moriarty tribunal, I outlined to the Members that the House is not a court of law. Questions of guilt or innocence are matters for decision by the courts. There is an onus on Members, if at all possible, to avoid referring to others in a manner which could be construed as being prejudicial to any subsequent investigations that may be deemed necessary by the appropriate authorities.

In that context and as Ceann Comhairle, I feel there is an obligation on the House to ensure the protection of the rights of any Member to be heard, where he or she may be subject to a motion of censure by the House. It is important to note that the proposed order to take this motion affords Deputy Lowry the opportunity to speak if he so wishes. I would not like to lay blame on the Government for this matter. My views were made known to the Government that I felt obliged to make this point on natural justice. It is a matter for Deputy Lowry if he wishes to take the opportunity. I appreciate fully that the parties and groups in the House agreed to take this motion without debate, but as a matter of justice, when we are censuring a Member, he or she should have the right to be heard, if he or she so wishes. If he or she wishes to forgo that right, then so be it.

The Tánaiste

A Cheann Comhairle, thank you for the clarifying the position. This was communicated to the Government and it is our view that natural justice requires that where a motion is being tabled which is directed at one Member of the House and calls upon that Member to resign from the House, then that Member should be given an opportunity to reply to the motion. My understanding is that this was communicated to Whips. If there has been a breakdown in communication, then I regret that. It is a requirement that we should discharge this by way of natural justice and it is a matter for Deputy Lowry whether he wishes to avail of the opportunity.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I agree with your position, a Cheann Comhairle. I can understand how annoyed Members of the Dáil are because Deputy Lowry has received a large amount of time. However, leaving the whole affair aside, the principle of the matter is that any of us in the Dáil could be accused of anything, including a political charge, and we would certainly be within our rights to demand the right to reply and to defend the position. It is not a question of focusing on this scandal, but on the right of any Member to defend himself or herself. Therefore, I do not think that people should press this to a vote, but should accept your proposal.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have no difficulty at all with Deputy Lowry responding to the motion. I accept the principle of a person being in a position to respond to a motion of censure. The only point I make is that there was no communication to our Whip, nor to the other Whips. That will have to be rectified in the future, because people are entitled to an expectation on what will unfold for a debate in the House. I would uphold the right of a Deputy in the House to respond to a motion of censure. I do not have any difficulty with that at all.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I do not think anybody is objecting to the notion of procedural correctness and natural justice. Deputy Lowry had to have the opportunity to respond——

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

You did just that earlier.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please allow the Deputy an opportunity to speak.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Excuse me, in the course of the debate——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should speak through the Chair.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

——it may interest Deputy Buttimer to know that I made precisely the point about the Deputy's right to defend his character and to natural and procedural justice. However, the Deputy in question has been given unprecedented amounts of time so far. He has now been afforded a further 30 minutes, and he has been afforded this in a manner that was misleading to the Whips of the other parties. That is not acceptable. If the Government is minded to facilitate Deputy Lowry in this way, then so be it.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

On the advice of the Ceann Comhairle.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

For future reference——

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputy was obviously not listening.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

——it is not an acceptable way to proceed. I hope in future that other Members on the Opposition benches will be afforded the courtesy and the latitude of time allocation in debates.

An Ceann Comhairle

I hope we will not have to face this situation ever again.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I raised the issue of natural justice in respect of this matter. It was on the Government side that the decision was made, even though it may have predated the communication you had with the Chief Whip. It is unacceptable that this was not communicated to us.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry that did not happen, but as you will appreciate, that was not my responsibility. I am glad that people see the point and I appreciate your co-operation on this matter. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 6c agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 11, statements on “Making Committees work in the 31st Dáil”, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 11a, statements on banks recapitalisation and restructuring, agreed to?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

No. We do not believe the arrangements as currently envisaged allow sufficient time for Opposition spokespersons to digest and consider the results of the stress tests. We are asking for an hour-long adjournment to be taken at 4.45 p.m. to allow for proper consideration of the results, and that following such an adjournment, the Minister would then come before the House, make his statement and allow others to do likewise.

An Ceann Comhairle

Was this agreed between the Whips?

The Tánaiste

Last week we were asked if the Minister for Finance would make a statement in the House following the announcement of the results of the stress tests on the banks. This issue was raised by Deputy Lenihan during the Order of Business this time last week. On that occasion, I agreed that time would be given in the House, once the stress tests were announced, for the Minister for Finance to make a statement and that is what is being done here. The results are being announced by the Central Bank at 4.30 p.m. The proposal is that the Minister for Finance will make a statement in the House at 4.45 p.m. and that the Opposition spokespersons will have an opportunity to respond to that statement. Those arrangements are set out in the proposal before us.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Clearly, the Minister must make a statement on this matter but, as the Tánaiste said, the results of the stress tests will be published at 4.30 p.m. and the Tánaiste has proposed that the Minister will come before the House at 4.45 p.m., leaving only 15 minutes between those two events. I notice the contrast in timing between this and the previous items we discussed. It is our firm view that people require a short period of time to study and consider the results of the stress tests. It is only reasonable, therefore, that the House would be given an hour-long adjournment.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Just to be constructive, obviously the timing——

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Deputy had the last 14 years to be that.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Get used to it.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Where are Punch and Judy now?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Obviously, the news today will be significant for the country. It is important that the House be in a position to deliberate on it in a considered way. Today, in essence, we can only have, at best, preliminary statements in terms of reaction to what the Central Bank will announce and what the Minister will announce to the House. We ask that early next week, by which time people will have had a proper opportunity to go through the full policy implications of this, time be made available for the Minister for Finance and Opposition spokespersons on finance to engage in a question and answer session and that sufficient time be allotted to facilitate detailed probing of the issues involved in the Dáil next week.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Do we have a commitment in that regard for next week? That would resolve the issue.

The Tánaiste

The announcement that will be made today will be a significant one and it will give us the scale of the legacy of the banking crisis the Government has inherited. It is important that an opportunity be given for the Minister for Finance to respond to that announcement and that his response be made here in the House. Criticisms have been made previously that on the occasion of major banking or economic announcements the response by Government to those announcements was given outside the House, sometimes after the Dáil has adjourned for the weekend period. It is important that this opportunity be given in the House for the Minister for Finance to respond and that Opposition parties, in turn, give their initial response to it. Having considered and reflected on what is in the announcement from the Central Bank today, and the Minister's response to it, it is also reasonable that if Members and parties want to return to the issue next week, that can be discussed by the Whips and arrangements can be made for that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am now putting the question, that the proposal for dealing with No. 11a, statements on banks recapitalisation and restructuring, be agreed to. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Moving on with the Order of Business, I call Deputy Martin.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am okay.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Higgins.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Are we not dealing with the election of the Leas-Cheann Comhairle first?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

We are still on the Order of Business.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is the next item.

Deputy Joe Higgins

It is all of 160 years ago since the heroic Chartist Movement led to the abolition of rotten boroughs in Britain and Ireland but today Members of this Parliament, in voting for the Second House of Parliament, have no less than five votes each and some have an extra vote because they happened to go to a university. While our neighbours who pay their taxes, work hard and are good citizens have no vote, why are we going through this charade of the Seanad and how long will it last? When will the legislation for the abolition of the Seanad be brought forward, for which some of us have been calling for the past 20 years?

Talking about throwbacks, the HSE action in savagely cutting the wages of nurses forced to work with an agency is a real throwback to days of dictatorial employer methods. Will the Tánaiste ask the Minister for Health and Children to intervene to stop this disgraceful attack on nurses, many of whom are young nurses who cannot get a position in a permanent capacity and are subjected to this kind of abuse?

The Tánaiste

First, I thank Deputy Higgins for raising the issue of the future of the Seanad and the method of voting in Seanad elections. As the House is aware, the programme for Government commits to a referendum on the future of the Seanad and that will form part of the package of reform proposals which the Government will be bringing before the House.

Second, in respect of voting entitlements, as the Deputy is aware, the programme for Government has committed to the establishment of a constitutional convention where both Members of this House and the general public can consider, reflect and, effectively, decide for the future on the voting arrangements and entitlements that people should have. That will form part of the remit of the constitutional convention.

On the issue of agency nurses, I am not sure if it is entirely in order but I understand that the position is that the Health Service Executive has introduced some new arrangements for contracting agency staff and I will ask the Minister for Health and Children to respond directly to the Deputy on that issue.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Will the Tánaiste confirm whether the legislative programme for the Government will be published next week and, if so, if the Construction Contracts Bill will be included as a priority Bill? It is an all-party Bill agreed in the Seanad awaiting clearance in the House.

The Tánaiste

It is the Government's intention to publish the legislative programme next Tuesday and I believe the Bill to which the Deputy referred is on the Order Paper.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I appreciate the earlier response to allow for a further and more in-depth debate on the results of the stress testing of the banks, possibly next week. The Tánaiste will be aware that the stress tests only deal with four of the guaranteed banks and the State is transferring €2.53 billion to Anglo Irish Bank and a further €0.5 billion to the Irish Nationwide this morning. This is aside from what will happen on foot of the results of the stress tests, which will be announced at 4.30 p.m. Given the fact that €3 billion is being transferred by the State to these zombie banks that do not have deposits, will there be an opportunity to discuss the issue of the promissory note that was given to these banks and the fact that €3 billion is to be given to these banks every year for the next ten years?

The Tánaiste

The transfers to which the Deputy referred in regard to the payment of promissory notes are not new payments; they arise from commitments that were entered into by the previous Government under the previous arrangements and commitments, which were made for the capital requirements of Anglo Irish Bank and the Irish Nationwide Building Society at that time. The Deputy asked if an opportunity will be given for that issue to be raised in the course of the debate. If he wants to raise that issue in the course of the debate later this evening, he is free to do so, and if arrangements are made for a further discussion on the issue next week, he would also be free to do so on that occasion.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will move on to No. 6b, Election of Leas-Cheann Comhairle, and I call on——

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Ceann Comhairle grant me leave to raise a matter I omitted to mention at the start of proceedings? I ask the Ceann Comhairle and the House to join us in wishing a good colleague and friend, Mr. Denis Reid, who has served us down through the years and who is a man of great wit, a raconteur, a living historian and keeper of customs — no doubt the book will be a great read — a very happy retirement. I wish Denis and his family well and I hope he will have a very happy retirement in the months and years ahead.

He will retire today and I am sure Members will join me in wishing him the very best. I have no doubt the Ceann Comhairle will do the same.

An Ceann Comhairle

Absolutely.

The Tánaiste

I join Deputy Martin in wishing Denis Reid the very best on his retirement today from the service of the House. He has been and no doubt will continue to be the best weather vane and the best informed political commentator in the country. That man knows more about politics and what goes on in here and in individual political parties than anybody else. I wish him and his family the very best.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sure many of the new Deputies did not have the opportunity of listening to the wisdom that comes from Mr. Reid.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

They are pioneers.

An Ceann Comhairle

Perhaps if he were here for another few months they would appreciate his value to the House, particularly if they frequented the Members' Bar for their lunch or a little drink after work. I join the Tánaiste and the leader of Fianna Fáil——

Deputy Finian McGrath

Ceann Comhairle——

An Ceann Comhairle

I see my colleague, Deputy Finian McGrath, wishes to contribute.

Deputy Finian McGrath

A delayed reaction.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will let him speak, but first I join him in wishing Denis and his family many years of happiness in retirement.

Deputy Finian McGrath

As somebody who knows Denis, I wish him and his family the best of luck. I got to know Denis since I was elected to the House in 2002. I know him very well although that is not to imply I am a regular customer.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

He looks like a regular.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Some of the smoking gang in the Dáil would know him very well from having a chat out the back. I wish him well and thank him for all the stories and yarns over the many years.