Vol. 734 No. 4
7 Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Education and Skills the terms of reference for the proposed study by the Higher Education Authority into the sustainability of the existing funding framework for third level. [14705/11]
I have changed the way in which the Department of Education and Skills will respond to questions. From now on, replies will be brief and to the point. This has been done to provide time for more questions to be answered and Deputies to ask more supplementary questions if they so wish.
The intention of the sustainability study to be undertaken by the Higher Education Authority, HEA, at my request is to assess the inter-relationship and tension between objectives for increasing student numbers in higher education, maintaining and improving quality and managing within overall funding constraints. The purpose of undertaking this work is to ensure that realistic and sustainable levels of growth in numbers can be supported and better informed choices can be made on policy options for future funding. In assessing this, the HEA has also been asked to consider the impact of more effective utilisation of existing resources, including through the potential of contractual changes under the Croke Park agreement. It will also draw on international comparisons and benchmarks in its work. While the overall study is a complex exercise, I have asked for preliminary findings by the autumn. The precise terms of reference are being finalised and will be published when agreed.
I thank the Minister for his innovative approach to answering questions. We have all experienced cases of Ministers reading out only half of a prepared reply because it was excessively long. I look forward to having a good dialogue with the Minister.
In his recent address to the Royal Irish Academy the Minister referred to the major challenges facing the education system arising from demographical change and, thankfully, the continued increase in the number of people participating in and accessing third level education. He also spoke fluently about improvements in the educational profile, the global rankings Irish universities have achieved through good management and significant investment of resources in recent years. Retention rates and the quality of courses are also good.
The Minister stated some months ago that the Hunt report needed to be dealt with urgently. According to the report, the third level sector urgently requires additional funding of approximately €500 million per annum. Why is the Government not acting on its recommendations? Is this not a case of kicking to touch another report? What additional benefits will the new report the Minister has requested from the Higher Education Authority bring to the debate?
The section on finance in the Hunt report called for further detailed analysis and study. In addition, the increase in funding of approximately €500 million is required over a lengthy period as opposed to the next couple of years. There are levels of duplication emerging which were not previously known. For example, approximately 40 different courses are offered in second level education teacher training in 21 different institutions. We must examine not so much institutional rearrangement, although that may be necessary should the institutions so decide, but the duplication of existing courses in centres that are in close proximity to each other. There is no doubt that net additional money will be required for third level education. Some of this funding could be found from savings within existing expenditure.
The Minister referred to the need for better utilisation of existing resources. Does he mean human resources, personnel and the range of teaching facilities available at different colleges? The Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, will be familiar with a particular project with which he and I were associated in the past, namely, an alliance between Teagasc and University College Cork which delivers better utilisation and synergy in the delivery of courses and the drawing down of external funding, specifically from the European Union.
By the end of the second decade of this century we will have to examine how we can get much more with less, in particular, how we can utilise distance learning and online participation through different institutions offering the same type of online activities. For example, County Meath Vocational Education Committee has developed a system of teaching applied mathematics from a single centre across the various second level VEC schools in the county. I recently visited Longwood VEC school which has, with the consent and co-operation of parents, supplied students with iPads in which all the books and written material they require are available electronically.
Given the resource constraints we face and with which the Deputy is more than familiar, we must find new ways of delivering as well as economies within the system. I do not wish to convey the impression that we can fund the additional growth through internal economies and innovations alone. We must find additional net resources, which is what I have asked the Higher Education Authority to identify.
While I ask the House to forgive me for referring again to Teagasc, it has offered e-learning courses for some time. This is a practical option as it facilitates students who wish to work during the day and may not always be able to travel. Do the terms of reference for the HEA's study include the possibility of reintroducing student fees?
No and while my position on fees is well known, I do not have any prejudice in the matter. We will have to wait and see what the report proffers before we make any further decisions. No decision will be made until we have the report.
8 Deputy Seán Crowe asked the Minister for Education and Skills if his attention has been drawn to any difficulties or constraints being experienced by parents of children with special needs or behavioural problems accessing school places in view of the arbitrary date of 18 March for awarding special needs assistants. [14657/11]
The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, issued a circular to schools advising of the allocation process for the 2011-12 school year. A key feature of the scheme will be to provide for an annual allocation of special needs assistant, SNA, support to eligible schools. The NCSE asked schools to submit all applications for SNA support to it by 18 March 2011. It intends to inform schools of their annual SNA allocation as soon as possible. I am advised by the NCSE that it is not aware of any widespread difficulties being experienced by parents of children with special needs seeking to enrol children for the coming school year as a result of this measure. It further advises that in the event that any such issues arise they can be raised directly with the special educational needs organiser, SENO. Section 29 of the Education Act 1998 provides parents with an appeal process where a board of management of a school refuses to enrol a student.
When I raised a similar question with a Minister previously he indicated he would examine the matter. He states the National Council for Special Education has not encountered widespread difficulties in this regard. The difficulty faced by families is that they must go from one school to another. I have been contacted by the parents of three children with dyslexia who are trying to have their children enrolled in a particular school but the resources available to the school in question are creating a hurdle.
The Minister previously clarified the position regarding the ratio of 9:1. I presume this will be used as a fall-back position. The system is making it increasingly difficult for families who must already jump through many hoops to access school places for children with special needs. It may be the autumn before a child enters the system and the appeals process also takes a long time.
The Taoiseach indicated this morning that the House debate special educational needs. I presume the Minister would support such a debate. This aspect of education must be addressed. While I welcome the clarification provided by the Minister, is it possible to fast-track the application process for children with special needs?
I will respond first in general terms before addressing specific cases if the Deputy so wishes. The number of special needs assistants in the system, which has been capped, stands at 10,575. Through the National Council for Special Education, we are trying to move to a system where each school has an allocation of special needs assistants and each principal will have a degree of discretion in allocating the SNA resource across a range of pupils. In the past, an individual SNA was attached to an individual pupil for a certain period. In response to many of the requests that have come back from educational providers themselves and boards of management, we are trying to get a certain degree of flexibility. It is in the early stages yet and they are looking at ways in which schools in a similar area could possibly share SNAs, from one school to a cluster of schools. There may be efficiencies and an effective redeployment of resources within that model. We will be guided by what is practical and what works on the ground, but that is where we are at the moment. We have to cap it at 10,575 but we want to ensure that we will get the best possible utilisation of that resource.
I am aware of a number of teachers who have come in from a DEIS area and I have already raised the issue of flexibility with the Minister. We are all seeking a fairer system in this regard but families are facing difficulties regardless because it will take a while to tweak or change the system. We must help those families around the current system, while sending a positive signal that it will improve for them. One principal I spoke to said that since 2009 some 21 children with autism have applied for places in his school. He said he wanted to take them in and it is part of the school's mission statement to do so, but the big difficulty is a lack of resources. That is just an example of one school.
People may ask how it is that there are so many children with special needs and whether some people are abusing the system but I do not believe so. The fact is that these matters are being identified a lot earlier now. I accept that it comes down to resources but if resources can be taken from other sections within the education system it would give these children and their families a chance. The last thing we want to see is families having to go to court to seek their legal entitlements.
I would agree with the Deputy that the last thing parents of children with special needs want is to have that situation compounded by having to go through the courts. We are trying to find a system that will work within the limited resources we have and to maximise its efficiency.
9 Deputy Maureen O’Sullivan asked the Minister for Education and Skills if he is satisfied that the previous Government’s financial investment in the Teaching Council has provided value, in view of the fact that there are still unregistered teachers teaching in schools; his role in ensuring accountability of the council and his role in having the €90 fee reduced, as per the motion passed at recent ASTI conference. [14767/11]
I see the Teaching Council as key to implementing my Department's strategic objectives. Much work has already been done by the council to develop education, in particular in maintaining and improving teaching standards. The Teaching Council Act includes provisions for accountability and the council's relationship with the Department.
Since 2008, the council has been self-funding, raising its funding mainly from teachers' registration fees. I agree with the council that the annual registration fee of €90 is reasonable and necessary, as significant functions of the council have yet to be rolled out. I am committed to this process.
Since my Department's tightening of regulations, the numbers of unregistered and unqualified personnel teaching in schools has decreased steadily. To limit further that number, I intend to commence section 30 of the Teaching Council Act 2001.
When the Teaching Council came in first, I had been teaching for about 35 years. My fellow teachers and I got what I can only describe as a threatening letter, that unless we joined up to the Teaching Council with our €90 our salaries would be stopped. I did not think that was a very positive start to the work of the council. I have yet to meet a teacher, although maybe there are some, who says that the €90 fee represents good value, particularly at a time when teachers' pay is subject to cuts and levies. The previous Government put €5 million or €6 million into the council at that time but will that be recouped by the current Government?
The council is doing the job the Department of Education and Skills had been doing, so it has been reinventing the wheel. I cannot see any other word to describe the council except as a quango with another gravy-train of expenses for people attending council meetings.
I recognise the Deputy's professional experience and background in this area. Subject to confirmation, my understanding is that the Teaching Council was a professional body requested by participants in the teaching profession themselves, and that it would function similarly to other such professional bodies. It would also be self-regulating in that a registration fee would be required, and would impose its own rules and regulations. I am aware that, because section 30 of the Act has not been brought into full effect, the mandatory requirement on its operations has not yet been rolled out. That has been brought to my attention and it is what I intend to do.
I am not aware of moneys that the Department may have given to the council in the past, but I will make inquiries in that regard. If there is the possibility of a refund then the State will look at that.
I thank the Minister for his reply. Is the Teaching Council accountable to the Minister or is it totally a law unto itself? My understanding is that only certain people in the teaching profession were seeking a teaching council. I do not believe the body of teachers were looking for it.
Subject to confirmation, the council is self-regulating and accountable to itself. It operates within the legislation as enacted by this House but it is a self-regulatory body as I understand it.
I know from the personal experiences of friends of mine in the teaching profession that they have had appalling experiences with the Teaching Council, both as new teachers and those who have been teaching for many years.
All teachers have representative unions and bodies open to them for membership, although every teacher is not necessarily a member of the relevant union. However, those unions are represented on the Teaching Council and if teachers have complaints, I suggest that is the way to go.
That is the point I was trying to make earlier about who really wanted this Teaching Council.
10 Deputy Brendan Smith asked the Minister for Education and Skills his plans to tackle the large mark-up on school books and reconsider meeting with book publishers to discuss the mark-up on school books as an additional measure to the issuing of guidance to school principals and the provision of funding to schools for books. [14706/11]
I am aware of the concern expressed by many parents and organisations, including the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, in relation to the high cost of school books and the frequent rate of revisions made by book publishers. I intend to meet with book publishers and representatives of parents in the near future to discuss this important issue in greater detail. I will see what role my Department can play in ensuring that revisions of books are kept to a minimum. Apart from a small number of prescribed texts at second level, mainly in the case of language subjects, decisions on textbooks are taken at school level so it may be necessary to encourage individual schools to take a more cost-conscious approach to the selection of books in their classes.
I sympathise with parents who are experiencing difficulty in paying for school books. The harsh economic reality in Ireland means money is tight for many parents. It is for that reason that I will continue to encourage schools to establish book rental schemes as the most effective means of lowering the cost of books for all students. Many schools are already using the funding for books provided by my Department to operate successful rental schemes.
I thank the Minister for his reply and I am glad that he will make arrangements to meet with school-book publishers. I have raised this question previously and the Minister said he would keep that request under consideration. I have received correspondence, as I presume other Members have, from a printing company in this country that lost a contract with a major school-book publisher. In that correspondence, which I presume the Minister has also received, the printing company said there was a huge mark-up for the school-book publishers. If the figures quoted in the letter are accurate — I have no particular expertise to know whether they are or not — it is a grim tale of how additional costs are imposed on purchasers of such books and the unwarranted profiteering involved. I hope the Minister will raise that issue with the school-book publishers when he meets them.
The Minister rightly pointed out that school principals also have a role to play in this regard. I urge principals and teachers to limit the need to purchase new editions as much as possible.
I am familiar with the issue to which the Deputy has referred. Many of my party members and members of the Fine Gael Parliamentary Party have expressed concerns to me about the cost of books and the apparent marginal changes which nevertheless require a new book to be purchased. If parents have two or three children in post-primary school, the cost of such books taken together is substantial, particularly in times when many families are suffering from unemployment or significantly reduced incomes. We must examine that again. Traditionally, the Department of Education and Science has said it does not have a role to play in that regard. I intend to change that. I will meet with the publishers and I will examine all the issues to which the Deputy referred. If any Member of the House has concerns in this area, I would be happy to hear from him or her.
I welcome the Minister's comments. Once a Minister and a Department puts an issue on the agenda, even though they do not have the power to directly intervene, it brings a new importance to the particular task at hand. I am sure no right thinking company would ignore the views of a Minister or a Department on an issue that has been ongoing for far too many years.
On a matter that relates to an earlier question, that of e-learning projects and publications, is the Department actively involved in encouraging schools to use this facility more or is provision being made to ensure that e-learning projects and publications are more prevalent in the classroom than they have been in the past?
I am somewhat new to this Department, as the Deputy will be aware. My impression, which I will confirm or modify if necessary, is that the initiatives on e-learning are coming from local schools. I already quoted Meath VEC as one example and such initiatives have been seen in other places as well.
We are examining the reform of the secondary level curriculum, both at junior and senior cycles, and the question of e-learning must be an integral part of that review. The former council of the NCCA is meeting fairly soon, in the middle of this month, to review a proposal for reform of the junior cycle. There will be a major conference, the first of its kind, between the Higher Education Authority and the NCCA to examine the reform of the secondary level curriculum with a view to making it a much better link between primary level, which has a good curriculum and is progressive and open-ended, and third level. In that context at the beginning of the 21st century we cannot ignore e-learning and all the manifestations that go with that.
The Minister rightly pointed out that there have been some great innovative projects by different school communities throughout the country. I did not get the opportunity to mention to him previously the use of technology by County Cavan VEC. There are projects within some of its second level schools where subjects such as mathematics are taught through the e-learning process. If the Department could bring together the knowledge, skill and expertise that have been acquired by schools and vocational education committees throughout the country, it could set a good prototype for developing a scheme on a national basis.
I agree with the sentiments expressed by the Deputy.
11 Deputy Joan Collins asked the Minister for Education and Skills the position regarding the provision of a permanent 16 class school building for a school (details supplied) in Dublin 8 in view of the fact that the school has been in substandard temporary accommodation since 1994 and the school is forced to turn away more than 200 applicants for junior infants annually, the school is located in a mixed urban environment with high sustainable demand for multi denominational education; his views on the matter and on the transparency of school building waiting lists in general; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [14769/11]
As the Deputy is aware, the existing school site has certain constraints in terms of size, access and the fact that there is a protected structure and associated conservation issues. My Department considered the option of constructing a new school but it has not been possible to identify a suitable site. Accordingly, my Department is now exploring the possibility of developing the school in a cost-effective manner on the current site.
The Deputy will also be aware that there is a significant demand for multi-denominational education in the area in question and the school referred to is the only school providing this type of education in that area. In this regard, I have launched a Forum on Patronage and Pluralism in the primary sector with its key objective to identify mechanisms to enable the patronage of the country's primary schools to reflect the choices required by parents.
All applications for capital funding are prioritised by my Department in accordance with the published prioritisation criteria, which were formulated following consultation with the education partners. Full details of the current status of each project can be viewed on my Department's website www.education.ie.
I have talked to the parents council about this, particularly following the "Prime Time" programme which highlighted the fact that 444 junior infants were being educated in prefabs there at this time. It caused the parents to reflect that their children are being educated there since 1994. Numerous officials from the Department of Education and Science have viewed the site. The parents essentially want to know how long it will take for this process to go through and they want there to be transparency in terms of the list of building projects. Even though their project has been on the school buildings list and has been given the go-ahead, they have not been able to find out exactly where their project is ranked on that list or when the project will proceed. Ensuring there is transparency is a goal of this Government.
The Deputy will be aware, as will Deputy Eric Byrne, of this site and the constraints that apply to it.
I am well aware of it.
There are many school sites on which there are prefabs but I have not seen many sites on which there are two-storey prefabs or where there is one prefab on top of another. As the Deputy will be aware, the problem is that the site is constricted and the school is effectively occupying the site. There is a difficulty in terms of how to build on the school site and at the same time run the school. There was talk in the past, of which the Deputy is probably aware, of an alternative site being located further down the South Circular Road but, to the best of my knowledge, it is no longer available. The Deputy can take it from my point of view that the demand for the school clearly exists. There is excess demand because there is a demand for even another school, with which the Deputy will be familiar. We are examining ways in which we can overcome the problem. It is a unique building problem and if we can find an alternative site, we will. I would love to be able to give the Deputy, as I said to the principal of the school and to others, a much clearer and definite response in terms of time, but I am simply not in a position to do so and I do not want to mislead the Deputy.
Is it possible for the Department to work more closely with the school authority in this respect? It said that an engineer has visited the site and it is aware there is a protected site at the front of the school but it does not consider that is a problem. All the barriers from that point of view need to be removed. It is a question of meeting and working out how and when that can be done. Is it possible for the Department to liaise with the parents council and the board of management of the school?
Following the Deputy's request, I will certainly take it up and I will be in communication with her.
