Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Jul 2011

Vol. 737 No. 3

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

On 27 January last, the Taoiseach launched his election campaign promoting a report from a PR firm. He talked at length about how the promises he would make in this election would be completely different from anything that had gone before. With typical understatement he promised a new redemptive politics and a new redemptive trust. He looked people in the eye and told them they could trust him and that he would keep his promises. As communities throughout this country have been discovering in recent weeks, these promises, especially where they relate to local health services, do not count for very much.

In Sligo, the Minister of State, Deputy Perry, sought and got votes with a promise backed up by the Taoiseach that if Fine Gael got into power, in the first 100 days — those famous 100 days — a satellite facility would be restored at Sligo General Hospital. He further promised that Fine Gael would upgrade it to a regional hospital. The Tánaiste gave a commitment as late as February that his party would immediately restore all services to Sligo and designate it as a centre of excellence. There were no "ifs", "buts" or "maybes" attached to the promises made in Sligo, Roscommon or other communities.

Now the deputy leader of Fine Gael has fired the expert board of the HSE and taken personal control of all HSE decisions. Yesterday his Department said spending is running €40 million below budget projections. There is no way to dodge responsibility for the decisions now being made.

Days before the election the Taoiseach told the people he had a list in his pocket of hospital services he would keep open. Will he tell us why he made those promises and which hospitals were on the list?

The Taoiseach

I am getting a little fed up of the Deputy putting words in my mouth. He should indicate which promises were made in respect of which hospitals and if he can stand over the claims made.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Is that the Taoiseach's answer?

The Taoiseach

He should tell me about the promises he is saying I made.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I just did.

Deputy Simon Coveney

The Deputy did not.

Deputy Michael McGrath

If that is all the Taoiseach can say to the people, God help us.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

I would say the lads in Roscommon know.

The Taoiseach

Which promises?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach stated that in the Government's first 100 days a satellite facility would be restored at Sligo General Hospital. I refer him to the Private Members' motion to which he spoke in the House a number of months ago regarding the retention of services in local hospitals. That was when he was in opposition. In February he said, "My only focus is on election day." It is very clear that is one promise the people could actually believe. No one forced the Taoiseach to make direct and solemn promises to the communities concerned, but he did so because his only concern was to win votes. Nothing has changed in the past three months to justify his breaking of these promises. The only difference is the Department has spent €40 million less than that budgeted for and that the deputy leader of Fine Gael is personally in charge of the HSE.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The country is broke.

Deputy Micheál Martin

He made a decision to fire the board. As he travels around the country the Taoiseach can see the reaction of the people to the solemn commitments given that have now been broken. Will he intervene to ensure his solemn promises to the hospitals and communities concerned will be honoured, or will he continue to ignore the growing concern throughout the country and that he and his colleagues in the Labour Party deliberately sought and obtained votes on the basis of false promises? We are talking about facilities in Roscommon, Sligo and elsewhere.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is unable to back up his charge. The position is that the parties in government — the Labour Party and Fine Gael — each produced a programme before the general election, as was their right and that of the Deputy's party when it was in government. After the people had cast their votes, Fine Gael and the Labour Party came together and produced a programme for Government which was endorsed in the House and is being implemented.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Therefore, it is all the Labour Party's fault.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin may quote all he likes and make all the comments he wishes to, but I am prepared to look the people in the eye and tell them the truth of what we found when we took on the responsibility of being in government. I am also prepared to say we stand over our position in changing the health structure, as referred to by Deputy Adams in a question earlier, to provide health services of which the people can be proud. They will be efficient and deliver services which the people expect and pay for and will be of the highest standard. That is patently not the current position, which is why the Minister for Health has set out, on behalf of the Government, to change the structure of the Health Service Executive in order to produce a universal health insurance scheme. That will provide for the ending of the two-tier system and bring about a health system of which we can be proud. That will not happen in the Government's first 120 or 300 days; rather it will take its first period in government to change the structure in the way we want to change it. In the meantime, the legacy left by the Deputy's party, for which he has denied all responsibility, must be dealt with and we will do so. I would like to be able to stand up and indicate that every clinic, service and hospital in the country will continue to engage in service provision because of a change of Government, as if there were no legacy debt or inferior structure to deal with.

Deputy Michael McGrath

It is a different show now.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That is what the Taoiseach said when he was on this side of the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies should maintain order.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach made those statements when in opposition.

The Taoiseach

The Government will continue to focus, as it is required to do, on sorting out these problems in order that the people can have the kind of health service that they need and deserve; it should be of the highest standard. That is the challenge facing the Government. It is obvious that there are places in the country where changes are required, as happened in the past. That will not be to everybody's liking, but in the interests of providing the best service in the most effective way, changes must occur. There is no intention to close down any hospital, just in case the Deputy is trying to get around that issue.

Deputy Micheál Martin

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry, but leaders are only allowed to ask one question.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

The Deputy should respect the Chair.

Deputy Micheál Martin

With all due respect, has the Taoiseach resiled from the promises made——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sorry, but I am calling Deputy Adams.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

The Deputy should respect the Chair.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is the Taoiseach denying he made these promises?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Please, Deputy

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is the Taoiseach resiling from the promises made?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must resume his seat.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is the Taoiseach denying he made a promise about Roscommon hospital? Is the answer yes or no?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat. I have called Deputy Adams.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

It is Punch and Judy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Has the Taoiseach resiled from the promises made? He should be honest. Did he make a promise about the retention of accident and emergency services in Roscommon?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Punch and Judy stuff.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There are very real concerns.

Deputy Gerry Adams

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

Deputy Martin should respect the Chair.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Deputy Buttimer is the closest to a Jack Russell I have ever come across.

Deputy Gerry Adams

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There should be only one voice.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is true that Fine Gael and Labour Party candidates made all sorts of election promises on which they turned their backs, including those they made about services in Sligo. It is also true that the party which closed down services in Sligo was Fianna Fáil. I will come as quickly as possible to the point I want to make. There is a significant crisis in front line services, including the appalling withdrawal of special needs assistants in the education sector and the downgrading of 24-hour accident and emergency services in important hospitals right across the State. Last week the Taoiseach stated there was a budget deficit of €99 million in hospital spending. The Government is consistently trying to explain and excuse what is being done in front line services and the aforementioned deficit. Last week it paid €12 million to senior bondholders with unguaranteed bonds in what was once Anglo Irish Bank. It will pay a further €10 million tomorrow. I cannot believe that on 2 November the Government will pay €703 million to the exact same crowd, seven times the current deficit mentioned. Why is there an unlimited supply of money for senior bondholders with unguaranteed bonds in toxic banks and not enough for front line services in hospitals across the State?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy has put his finger on the button. The reason we are in this quandary is a relatively small number of people brought the country to the edge of economic ruin. The Government complied by transferring bank debt to sovereign debt, meaning €30 billion will be put into Anglo Irish Bank in the next ten years. The Government and the people have been put at a serious disadvantage because of the carry-on of earlier Governments and reckless banking lending practices.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The bonds are not sovereign debt.

Deputy Michael McGrath

They are not guaranteed.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy noted a number of the payments made. Because of the actions of the Minister for Finance, some €10 billion has been taken from subordinated bondholders to date and of the €24 billion laid out in recapitalisation, the NTMA reckons that approximately €5 billion can be taken from this by further pursuit of subordinated bondholders. As has been made clear to the House and the nation, the Minister has pointed out that senior bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank are in a very different category than those in Bank of Ireland and AIB. In advance of further payments to Anglo Irish Bank, the Minister will discuss the matter with the ECB early in the autumn.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Perhaps he should have checked with it before now.

The Taoiseach

It is not the case that the Government can make a unilateral decision.

Deputy Michael Noonan

Deputy Dooley's party gave the guarantee.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach is wrong, as these are unguaranteed bonds. It is very difficult, when following Fianna Fáil speakers, to be heard or hear what others are saying.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I appreciate that. There should be order in the House.

Deputy Gerry Adams

There are unguaranteed bonds which are not part of the sovereign debt. For once the decision has not been made by Fianna Fáil but by the Government. We spoke earlier about citizens' rights and the mark of a republic. What society values the greed of senior bondholders above the health needs and entitlements of citizens? As we all know, people who end up in hospital are vulnerable, in trauma or ill. Tomorrow, the Government will pay a huge amount of money to these greedy bondholders in respect of unguaranteed debt. They got into this position because of their own private greed.

As a result of the failure to deal properly with the shortage of junior doctors, other closures or cuts in accident and emergency services across the State will be announced on 11 July.

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy is aware — this has been pointed out by the Minister — the Government has deemed that Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide are not functioning banks.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Why give them money?

The Taoiseach

For that reason, their deposits have been transferred to other banks. It's clear that senior bondholders in those non-functioning banks are in a different category from senior bondholders in the two pillar banks. The Government has to focus on those two banks as part of its decision not to maintain six dysfunctional banks. When the Minister for Finance was in the United States, he made it clear that the Government regards senior bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank as being in a different category. For that reason, we will pursue the question of sharing responsibility with the ECB early in the autumn.

Every Deputy understands the sensitivity and the personal trauma encountered by families every day when they find it difficult to access quality health care, as close to them as possible, when they need it. Obviously, it is a matter of genuine interest for every Deputy and everyone else in the country. Everybody knows we cannot get to the point we want to reach if changes are not made. The Minister for Health and the Government have to grapple with how those changes can be made, consider what the priorities will be when that has been done and decide how all of it will be funded. A fundamental part of that involves changing the structure of the HSE, which was supposed to provide a world-class health service but has failed to do so. The need for a change in direction is clear when one bears in mind that the leader of Fianna Fáil has objected to the collocation of private hospitals on public hospital lands, which was supposed to be a cornerstone of the previous Government's approach.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It was not a cornerstone of anything.

The Taoiseach

As Minister, he objected to that in the case of Cork.

The point I make to Deputy Adams is that I recognise the challenge we face if we are to help people who want to access hospital treatment, are lying in hospital beds or on trolleys in corridors, or are waiting to get into hospital for treatment. We have to deal with this matter in a structured way and on the basis of an understanding that people are entitled to a quality health service. The Minister for Health established the special delivery unit to deal, in the first instance, with the endless waiting lists this country has had for far too many years. Deputies are aware that such an approach has worked in Northern Ireland and elsewhere. It will work here too. The Minister for Health and the Government will co-operate in dealing with several parallel challenges. We are trying to provide an effective and safe health system with the highest standards — a system that works for people when they need it, which is what we all want.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Is the Taoiseach aware of the plan to move 130 Irish jobs within the Vodafone group to Egypt and India? Does he share my concerns about the matter? According to the company's most recent financial report, published in March 2011, Vodafone made an annual profit of €123 million in Ireland. Does the Taoiseach agree that its decision to move these jobs offshore is very damaging for the staff of the company and the country as a whole? At a time when businesses and workers are struggling to keep their heads above water, the Irish economy is enduring one of the most prolonged recessions since the foundation of the State. Will the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Bruton, meet representatives of Vodafone? Will they ask them to reverse this decision? Will the Taoiseach stand up for the Communications Workers Union, the members of which are trying to protect their jobs and their livelihood? Does the Taoiseach agree that if he does not protect these jobs, it will make a mockery of the Government's jobs initiative plan or any other job creation projects?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Before the Taoiseach replies, I ask Deputies to ensure the noise level is low when all Members of the House are speaking. Everyone should have a chance to ask questions and respond.

The Taoiseach

I met union representatives of the call centre workers when I was in Killarney yesterday to address the Irish Congress of Trade Unions. I was informed of Vodafone's decision to move these jobs to India and Egypt. I regret that they will be lost to this country. This is not a new phenomenon. When I was Minister for Tourism and Trade, a number of international airlines and other companies with trade elements here set up call centres here. The centres lasted a number of years until companies found they could provide the same service in other locations at a cheaper cost. There was then a move to a higher level of expertise and experience. I regret the decision made by Vodafone. The requirement and the challenge for the Government is to continue to create jobs in Ireland. As a start, the jobs initiative, which was drawn up within the conditions of the IMF-EU bailout deal, provides an incentive to stimulate the indigenous economy here. As the Deputy pointed out, the Government's programme does not involve taxing employment or work. When I met the union representatives yesterday, they clearly explained their concerns in this regard. Obviously, I was aware that the matter might be raised during Question Time here.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I thank the Taoiseach for his response. I am delighted he met the unions. It is important to hear the views of workers. The Taoiseach has a national duty to implement the Government's policy on job retention and protection in the case of this crisis. Is he aware that if these 130 jobs are lost, some €2 million will be lost to the local economy? That is a serious issue for this economy. While respecting that a company cannot be compelled to make any decision, I ask the Taoiseach to put serious political pressure on Vodafone and to support intervention in this matter. This company has enjoyed the loyal support of many Irish customers, including me and many other Members of the Oireachtas. I ask the Taoiseach to stop this company from walking off the pitch.

The Taoiseach

I cannot stop the company from walking off the pitch. The Government does not give it grant aid. The Secretary General of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, have met representatives of the company. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, and I have met representatives of the trade union. As we do not provide grant aid to the company, we have no power to block it from walking off. There has to be an emphasis on continuing to create new opportunities for the companies' workers and protect the circumstances that currently prevail. That will be done as part of the process of rebuilding our reputation at home and internationally. As Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton will continue to work on that. Although it is regrettable that Vodafone has decided to move these jobs to India and Egypt from the centres in counties Dublin and Louth, we will continue to strive to create new jobs by attracting new foreign direct investment and stimulating the indigenous economy.