Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Nov 2011

Vol. 745 No. 2

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 14, statements on European Council in Brussels; and No. 15, statements on the development in the eurozone.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings on No. 14 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 85 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the statements shall be made by the Taoiseach and by the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order and who may share their time, and shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; a Minister or Minister of State shall take questions for a period not exceeding 20 minutes; a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a statement in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; the following arrangements shall apply to No. 15: the statements of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; the statement of each other member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, and Members may share time. Private Members' business shall be No. 31, motion re social welfare, and shall take place on the conclusion of No. 15 or at 7.30 p.m., whichever is the earlier, and shall adjourn after 90 minutes, and shall also take place immediately after the Order of Business tomorrow and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes on that day. Topical issues tomorrow shall be considered on the conclusion of Private Members' business and oral questions tomorrow shall take place on the conclusion of topical issues.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are four proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 14, statements on the European Council in Brussels, agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

I wish to seek clarification. Is it the Taoiseach's intention to answer questions after the speeches on the European summit, or will the Minister of State, Deputy Creighton, answer them?

The Taoiseach

I will be here.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach be answering them?

The Taoiseach

Yes, of course. Members can ask any question they wish.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach be here to answer them?

The Taoiseach

I will be here to answer them. I do not run away——

Deputy Micheál Martin

It has not happened yet. Since the European Council has changed, the Minister of State has answered the questions. In fairness, I have no problem with the Minister of State because she answered the questions with far greater clarity than the Taoiseach did last week.

The Taoiseach

We all have important duties to carry out. In previous times, this House would not be sitting at all on this day. I will be here. The Deputy need not worry.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Ba mhaith le Sinn Féin leasú a mholadh ar Riar na hOibre, sé sin díospóireacht a ligean ar an rún seo roimh mheán lae inniu. Sinn Féin wishes to seek an amendment to today's Order of Business to allow a debate on the motion which we circulated earlier today. It states that this Dáil opposes the hand-over of €700 million of taxpayers' money by Anglo Irish Bank, or the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, to an unguaranteed, unsecured senior bondholder, and that the Government instruct the Anglo Irish Bank chairperson, Mr. Alan Dukes, to withhold this payment which is due to be paid today. That would need to be taken, with your permission, a Cheann Chomhairle, before 12 o'clock.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I oppose this proposal and ask the Taoiseach for a variation of the order. In one hour, €700 million will be transferred from the people of this State to bondholders of whom the Taoiseach says, "I don't know who they are". Therefore, €700 million of our people's resources is to be handed over to anonymous, faceless and unaccountable individuals and entities. If a highwayman with a mask——-

An Ceann Comhairle

We do not discuss a topic. We only discuss arrangements.

Deputy Joe Higgins

——were to go into a bank today and stage an armed hold-up, the Deputies of Fine Gael and Labour would be up in arms demanding retribution. That is what is happening to our people today.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy——

Deputy Joe Higgins

These are not widows' and orphans' funds.

A Deputy

Bringing Members of the House into disrepute.

An Ceann Comhairle

These are arrangements for the taking of the business. We are not having statements.

Deputy Joe Higgins

One bondholder, for example——

Deputy Colm Keaveney

He should withdraw that spurious remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, you cannot abuse your right to speak. This is simply a technical matter and the Deputy is being asked whether he agrees or disagrees with the taking of this matter.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Yes, and I am allowed to make a short statement.

An Ceann Comhairle

If you disagree with the manner in which it is being taken, that is all right, but you cannot make a statement.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I am sorry, a Cheann Comhairle, but I am allowed to make a short statement in support of my opposition.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are allowed to make a statement on the reason it should not be taken in the manner in which it is being taken, not on the issue itself.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Yes. That is exactly what I am doing. The first item should be changed. I was saying, to enlighten the Taoiseach, that one bondholder is in fact a private Swiss bank which is substantially owned by the family of a Greek shipping magnate, who are bleeding dry not only the working class and poor of Greece but of this State as well. I call for a variation of the Order of Business to allow an emergency motion that the Dáil agrees that this bond should not be paid today. This will give the Fine Gael and Labour Party Deputies an opportunity of standing with the Irish people and the taxpayers rather than with the speculators of Europe. When Deputies vote on this, what they are voting on——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The by-election is over.

Deputy Joe Higgins

——is whether we should have such a debate. While wishing the new Deputy from Dublin West well, I say to him that what we are voting for now is whether the people of this country and Dublin West will have the opportunity to vote on whether €700 million of our people's money should be transferred to these bondholders while our services are being wrecked.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I appeal to the Taoiseach to allow for a debate before noon on the question of paying the Anglo Irish Bank bondholder. There are two simple reasons. The Tánaiste, in January of this year, described specifically the decision to pay off Anglo Irish Bank bondholders at the expense of the Irish taxpayer as economic treason. That is a serious charge. Now he is continuing with that act of economic treason and not even allowing a debate or a vote on this decision. The second reason is simple. The value of the budget cuts to our health service which are resulting——

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not dealing with the budget.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

——in the closure of accident and emergency units and hospital beds all over the country——

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

What is the Deputy's answer?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

——from Bantry to Letterkenny to Loughlinstown, is approximately €700 million, the same amount as this bond.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I must remind you——

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Give this Dáil the chance to vote on whether we want €700 million to go into our hospitals and accident and emergency units or into the pockets of anonymous bondholders and speculators. At least give the Dáil a chance to discuss that and vote on it, and let everybody nail their colours to the mast, showing on which side they stand.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

On which side does the Deputy stand?

An Ceann Comhairle

Before I ask the Taoiseach to reply, I must state that amendments to the proposals made by your good self regarding arrangements for taking this debate must be directed at modifying one or more of the proposals. An amendment that introduces a new matter is not in order, as it is the Taoiseach's prerogative to list the business to be taken.

Deputy Joe Higgins

The Taoiseach's prerogative, yes.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

He can do it.

The Taoiseach

D'ardaigh an Teachta Adams an rún seo. Níl mé toilteanach go mbeadh leasú ar an ghnó atá curtha os comhair na Dála. Táim tar éis trí cheist a fhreagairt ar seo agus tá cinneadh soiléir déanta faoi. I remind Deputy Higgins that these bondholders are not only shipping magnates. They also include town councils and the pension funds of ordinary workers.

Deputy Joan Burton

Yes.

The Taoiseach

That is the nature of the bond market.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I thought the Taoiseach said he did not know who they are.

The Taoiseach

What we want to do——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Would Deputies listen to the reply?

The Taoiseach

——is to reform the situation so ordinary workers are protected.

A Deputy

They would want to study economics 101.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

He is contradicting himself.

Deputy Joe Higgins

The Taoiseach claimed he did not know who the bondholders are. Now he claims they are pension funds and so on.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 14 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

In light of the vital importance of this issue, namely, the fact that over €700 million of taxpayers' money is to be transferred to unsecured bondholders in Anglo Irish Bank, I wish to call for a vote by other than electronic means.

Question again put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 14 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 78; Níl, 37.

Tá

• Bannon, James.
• Barry, Tom.
• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Carey, Joe.
• Collins, Áine.
• Conlan, Seán.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Daly, Jim.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harris, Simon.
• Hayes, Brian.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Keaveney, Colm.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lyons, John.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McFadden, Nicky.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Nash, Gerald.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Nulty, Patrick.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O’Donnell, Kieran.
• O’Donovan, Patrick.
• O’Dowd, Fergus.
• O’Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Spring, Arthur.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Wall, Jack.
• Walsh, Brian.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Browne, John.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Niall.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Donnelly, Stephen.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Flanagan, Luke ‘Ming’.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Dea, Willie.
• O’Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Tóibín, Peadar.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Séan Ó Fearghaíl and Aengus Ó Snodaigh.

Question again declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

The second question to be put to the House is the proposal for dealing with No. 15, statements on developments in the eurozone. Is that agreed?

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is not agreed. The Taoiseach is wilfully preventing a debate on this crucial issue. He refused to allow the Dáil to meet yesterday for that purpose. Now we have Labour Party and Fine Gael Members on a walk of shame, siúl an náire, filing through the lobbies to prevent a decent debate. When the Taoiseach talks about this issue he says the Government has no choice, that it has to be done. However, he admitted today, for the first time, that this matter has nothing to do with our memorandum of understanding with the troika. In contrast to what he said when he was elected Taoiseach, about debate, openness and involving the Opposition, this is an example of arrogance, of the Government simply refusing to allow a proper debate on this issue. The Sinn Féin Party will not stay here for the remainder of the Order of Business. My colleagues and I are leaving the Chamber.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Do not be like that, Gerry.

The Taoiseach

That is arrogance.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

It is a strange type of democracy.

A Deputy

The Deputies are walking off the pitch.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Joe Higgins.

Deputy Joe Higgins

What is happening here is not democracy. Fine Gael and Labour Party Deputies, to a man and woman, walked through the lobbies to deny this Dáil, representing the Irish people, a discussion and a vote on whether €700 million should be handed over today to anonymous bondholders, bankers and speculators. In other words, those who believe they are a sovereign Government are in full capitulation to people who are anonymous. It is an incredible distortion and denial of democracy. Therefore, the United Left Alliance Deputies, in protest against this, will leave the Chamber until 12 noon in order to mark for the Irish people that we are serious about representing their concerns in this Chamber, and in opposition to what the Labour Party and Fine Gael in Government are shamefully doing.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The people of Greece have won, through their determination and resilience, the right to have a vote.

A Deputy

They have won nothing.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They have won the right to have a vote on their economic and social future.

Deputy Shane McEntee

Do not be so stupid.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Government will not even give this Parliament the right to discuss the money that is being cut out of the health service and other public services and which is to be handed over to anonymous bondholders. It is showing a shameful contempt for democracy.

Deputy Shane McEntee

The Deputy should go to Greece. What he is saying is stupid.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

Are the Deputies opposite staying or going?

Deputy Catherine Murphy

On behalf of the Independent Members——

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Murphy cannot speak at this point; only party leaders can do so.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I can do so at this point.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called Deputy Micheál Martin.

Deputy Micheál Martin

On behalf of my party, I call on the Taoiseach and the Government to reflect on the anger and frustration of Members on the opposite side of the House. We forced the Dáil to come back this week to discuss these issues. I do not intend to leave the Chamber, because my role is to stay and to pursue these issues with the Taoiseach. In the context of the debate on the European summit, I ask the Taoiseach to be available to answer specific questions that arise from the summit and the issue of repaying bondholders, in respect of which he gave a commitment to the electorate. People are frustrated and angry at the contrast between the words emanating from the Taoiseach in the past and the actions he has executed in regard to this issue.

The Taoiseach

The Sinn Féin Party and Independent Members requested that Dáil Éireann should meet this week. We agreed that the House would meet today and tomorrow. Leaders' Questions today focused on the eurozone crisis and the situation in regard to Anglo Irish Bank. Following the Order of Business we will have a debate on the European Council, in respect of which I committed to report to this House both before and after——

An Ceann Comhairle

I apologise for interrupting the Taoiseach. I remind the Independent Deputies that it is customary for other Members to resume their seats while a Member is speaking.

The Taoiseach

That will be followed by a debate on the eurozone and the issues arising from the referendum called by the Greek Prime Minister, Mr. Papandreou.

I assure Deputy Martin that I will be here for the entire debate and for the questions and answers which follow it. We will try to deal with those questions as comprehensively as possible. As I said in this Chamber this morning, the situation is that we have not been able to unravel the commitments entered into with external partners, particularly the ECB, in respect of these bondholders. I made it clear there is no question of further moneys beyond what is already committed being brought into play. While it is not an ideal situation, in the context of where we are as a country and as a people, in respect of our integrity, our competence and our reputation, and in the longer-term interests of our people in respect of employment incentives and opportunities, we are making the decision in this manner.

Regarding the point made by Deputies on the right to vote, in recent months we have had more discussions about the eurozone and European issues in general than was ever previously the case. The absent Deputy had the opportunity to put down a Private Members' motion last week if he wished to have the matter dealt with this week, but he chose not to do so. I am not one for hysterics and so on. Where I come from, one stays on the pitch and fights one's case. If Members opposite wish to walk out, they are welcome to do so. I will be here to welcome them back when they return.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

My colleagues and I will now proceed to leave the Chamber.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

Finian is blowing with the wind.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Enjoy your cigarette, Finian.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15, statements on developments in the eurozone, agreed to? Agreed. Third, is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business agreed to? Agreed. Fourth, is the proposal regarding the timing of the Topical Issue debate and Question Time tomorrow agreed to? Agreed.