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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Nov 2011

Vol. 747 No. 3

Topical Issue Debate

Fisheries Protection

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for selecting this item. It is my first time to raise such an issue and I welcome the attendance of the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine to respond to this important matter. While I am more accustomed to speaking on agricultural rather than fishing issues, the importance of the Celtic Sea as a herring fishery has been brought to my attention a number of times. I commend the Minister for his commitment to the fishing and aquaculture industries and in respect of job protection and creation. In this context, Bord Iascaigh Mhara recently made a presentation on the subject of salmon farming and its potential off the coast of County Galway. I also commend the great strides made by the Celtic Sea Herring Management Advisory Committee, CSHMAC. The Minister should indicate whether he has met that committee, the views of which he sought on 12 May on the management of the Celtic Sea fishery.

As the Minister is aware, overfishing in that part of the State's waters had resulted in a reduction of allocated quotas. In 2009 there was a quota of 5,000 tonnes and through the management of the fishery, this increased to 8,500 tonnes in 2010 and 11,500 tonnes in 2011. Moreover, there is potential for a further 30% increase next year. If the committee is allowed to continue its work on the capping of boat numbers, I am told there is potential to increase the quota to up to 20,000 tonnes. It is the only managed fishery in Ireland, one of the best in the European Union and was set up more than ten years ago.

The 2011 fish processing season in the Celtic Sea fishery finished on 11 November and the quota was fished over a seven week period. I note the Minister is expected to issue a policy document in the coming weeks on the management of the number of boats in the fishery and the future management of the allocation of the quota. Some concern has been expressed about the experience in the 2011 season. The policy of the CSHMAC is that the number of boats operating in the Celtic Sea should be capped on the basis of track record and I believe detailed proposals in this regard were forwarded to the Minister on 8 June. In addition, the committee's policy is that the fishery should continue to be fished on the basis of weekly quotas and according to the Celtic Sea boat to quota ratio. I seek the Minister's opinions on the document he received from the committee.

There also is concern about jobs in the processing industry that result from the landing of the quota because this year, for the first time, a significant quantity of fish was landed abroad in Denmark, France and Northern Ireland, from where no returns accrue to the State. I appreciate there are issues regarding competition. Can anything be done to encourage better use of this valuable fish stock in terms of job creation and protection? As the quota was fished in just seven weeks, there was a three to four week shortfall in the length of time that up to 500 people could have been working in the various areas of processing, transport, servicing and so on.

The committee has given the documents to the Minister. The function of that committee is to consider the objective of rebuilding this important stock. Great work has been done, as I have outlined, and it is important we continue that great work to ensure this valuable asset for the State and the region is supported. What the Minister does in terms of the management for next year will have a huge part to play in this regard.

For centuries, the herring stock in the Celtic Sea, centred around the Dunmore East area, has been a key stock which has reliably supported the fishing industry in the area. In the autumn of each year, many seasonal jobs are created both at sea and onshore in the local fish processing companies. Under the Common Fisheries Policy, 86% of this stock is ring-fenced for Irish vessels. Over the years, the size of the stock has gone through peaks and troughs, with a collapse in the stock in the 1970s and again in the 1990s.

In 2005, the Minister of the day constituted a management committee, the Celtic Sea Herring Management Advisory Committee, the role of which is to advise the Minister on the management arrangements for the stock, as outlined by the Deputy. The committee was established on an informal basis, that is, the Minister decided to establish the committee and issued letters to relevant organisations asking them to nominate persons to the committee. The committee comprises representatives of the industry and processors and is chaired by the Irish South and West Fish Producers Organisation. The Department is not represented on the committee, nor is any other State agency. However, the Marine Institute advises the committee from time to time on scientific issues relating to the stock.

The committee, together with the Marine Institute, developed a rebuilding plan for the stock in 2007. This rebuilding plan was submitted to the European Commission by the Minister and informs the total overall catch for the stock. The rebuilding plan includes such measures as spawning area closures and ensuring that only mature fish are caught. This, together with the proactive approach of the Celtic Sea Herring Management Advisory Committee, has led to the stock recovering from the downward trend and it has been increasing in recent years. For example, the total allowable catch was 6,000 tonnes in 2009, down from a high of 20,000 tonnes in the mid-1990s, but by 2011 the total allowable catch had increased to just over 13,000 tonnes and a very significant increase in the total allowable catch is expected for next year.

In 2011, the Celtic Sea Herring Management Advisory Committee was successful in achieving Marine Stewardship Council certification for the stock. To achieve certification by the Marine Stewardship Council, an extremely rigorous assessment by the council's independent fishery experts and scientists is carried out. A fishery which is certified by the council is a guarantee that the fish are harvested in a sustainable and eco-friendly way.

The rebuilding plan for the stock will be complete by the end of 2011. To ensure a future for the fishery which is not subject to the peaks and troughs of the past, a long-term management plan has been developed by the committee in association with the Marine Institute. This plan will be submitted to the European Commission by the Pelagic Regional Advisory Council and will be assessed by both the International Council for the Exploration of the Seas, ICES, and the Scientific, Technical and Economic Committee for Fisheries, which advises the European Commission in regard to stock assessment and management.

The success of the rebuilding plan has brought a greater demand for access to the fishery from vessels which have not participated in the fishery in recent years. Under current arrangements, the fishery is not restricted and any vessel which does not have a pelagic preclusion in its sea fishing boat licence may enter the fishery. In general, between 2006 and 2010, the number of vessels in the fishery had been relatively constant. For example, 43 boats took part in the fishery in 2010, whereas 105 vessels had booked in to fish in 2011. This situation obviously greatly reduces the allocations for each vessel and poses a challenge to the sustainability of the fishery.

Conscious of the need to preserve these stocks, I announced a review of the management arrangements to apply to herring stocks on 12 May last, in which I asked the industry for its views. The review covered not just the Celtic Sea herring stock but also the herring stocks in the north-west and the Atlanto-Scandian herring stock in Norwegian waters. The views of industry submitted indicate that many in the industry, though not all, are looking for change in the current management arrangements. The changes sought, however, are widely varied and in many respects, to be honest, directly conflict with each other. Taking account of the views expressed, I have asked my Department to prepare options for my consideration, taking all issues into account. I am currently considering these options and when I have chosen a preferred approach, I plan to make this available to industry representatives for views before making a final decision on the future management arrangements for all final herring fisheries management decisions.

I thank the Minister for his response. Sustainability is obviously a very important factor in this regard. I have been made aware that some boats have nets of a huge size which take in their weekly quota in one haul and, as a result, there are substantial quantities of herring discards. Is it under consideration to limit the size of the boats entering the Celtic Sea to stop this? Sustainability is what has brought us to the stage where we have allowed an increase in the quota. I am looking at this from the point of view of job protection and retention, given there are four processing factories for this valuable stock, including at Rossaveal in County Galway.

I understand exactly what the Deputy is suggesting. This is a hugely valuable fishery for the south-east, the south-west and the west coast, and a number of boats come also from the north west into the Celtic Sea.

There are a number of key issues on which I will ultimately need to make a judgment call following consultation and taking into account the views of the Celtic Sea herring management advisory committee but also views outside that committee, given there is not agreement across the board in this regard. Some of the issues relate to where fishermen can land their catch and whether there are restrictions in terms of the ports. As the Deputy knows, one cannot land Celtic Sea herring in certain ports but one can do so in others, which is an issue that needs to be reviewed and on which we need to make a decision. More importantly, we need to decide who gets priority in terms of access to the stock. Should it be people who have a historical track record of catching fish and who have been involved in rebuilding the stock by sustainable management, or people who have come in more recently and who can perhaps catch more efficiently because they are in bigger boats?

Ultimately, my only objective is to try to get the maximum benefit for the fishing industry from a growing stock of very valuable fish in a way that can sustain fishing communities to the maximum effect if the fish are caught efficiently and in a sustainable way. I will consult as widely as I can but, ultimately, given this is one of those issues on which it will be difficult to get agreement across the board, I will have to make a judgment call on it. However, that will be consistent with the process we agreed back in May.

Services for People with Disabilities

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for the opportunity to raise this important issue. Given the country's current perilous financial situation, Deputies on all sides of the House are only too well aware of the harsh budget cuts that need to be made to ensure Ireland regains its sovereignty and turns the current economic tide. However, what is imperative is that we continue to protect services to the most vulnerable citizens among us and, thus, it is imperative that funding for organisations that provide services to people with disabilities are maintained.

Associations such as Ability West and the services provided by the Brothers of Charity are just two instances of services that must be protected amid the forthcoming cuts. Ability West was set up in 1962 by parents and friends of people with intellectual disabilities. It provides high quality services and supports to more than 480 children and adults with an intellectual disability in 55 centres in Galway city and county. As a voluntary organisation, it already relies heavily on fund-raising events and is currently organising everything from cookery demonstrations to fashion shows and Christmas draws in an effort to continue its current service levels. Any change to the funding of such organisations would have a huge impact on every one of those 480 families, many of whom are already struggling financially.

The Brothers of Charity service is another such service that provides a very important service. In Galway alone, the Brothers of Charity cater for more than 1,000 people with intellectual disabilities. Its services are divided equally between children and adults, with an emphasis on community-based services such as early childhood services and supported employment to name but two. Half of those clients attend centre-based services, while the other half are supported in their local preschools, schools or other community settings. The Brothers of Charity Services Galway currently operates with an annual budget of €51 million, with the principal funding coming from the HSE.

Any cut in funding would have a devastating effect on organisations that work with people with intellectual disabilities. It would discourage those people already volunteering with such organisations, it would demoralise staff and result in redundancies, it would create even more worry for the families of people with intellectual disabilities, but most importantly it would have a direct and negative impact on the quality of life enjoyed by people with intellectual disabilities, people who very often are not in a position to lobby politicians or demonstrate outside Leinster House or take on any of the very visible campaigns that have been mounted by other groups. However, it is imperative that their needs be taken into account as this budget, which everyone recognises will be harsh, is drawn up.

The welfare of children with special needs must be a top priority during coming years as severe budgets continue. A structure has been put in place through the hard work and dedication in recent years and decades, which features tailor-made solutions to the needs of individual children and adults, providing them with the educational support they need, often in a local or community setting, by working with their parents and building up strong relationships. That work must be recognised in the forthcoming budget.

I fully recognise that the Minister for Finance and the Minister of State present are faced with a hugely difficult task in framing the coming budget, and that everyone will have to feel the repercussions of the fact that we as a country are currently spending money we do not have and that we will find it difficult to access money given the European debt crisis, but the most vulnerable people in society must be shielded from the worst brunt of the coming cuts. I ask the Minister of State to ensure that protecting services for the most vulnerable in our society remains a top priority in these crucial weeks as budget matters are finalised.

I thank Deputy Connaughton for raising this matter. Under the Health Act 2004 the HSE is required to manage and deliver, or arrange to be delivered on its behalf, health and personal social services, including all disability services. Expenditure on health services for people with a disability in the current year will be approximately €1.5 billion, with an overall staffing level of 15,800 whole-time equivalents. The majority of that funding is used by the non-statutory agencies providing services, including Ability West. The integral role of these agencies is of particular relevance to the provision of health and personal social services to people with a disability. These agencies provide a very significant and broad range of services in partnership with and on behalf of the HSE.

I am aware that Ability West, for example, provides a wide range of community-based day, residential and support services to an average of 500 children and adults with an intellectual disability within Galway city and county, and that it is also patron to four special schools in the county, providing health related supports as required. Ability West is funded by the HSE under section 39 of the Health Act 2004. Services are provided through a service level agreement which is reviewed annually. The HSE provided funding of €22.5 million to Ability West this year.

As noted above, expenditure on health services for people with a disability in the current year will be around €1.5 billion. Special consideration was given to disability and mental health in the 2011 budget through a maximum reduction of just 1.8% in the allocation for the two sectors. The relatively lower reduction of 1.8%, compared with other areas of the health budget, recognises that these services are provided to vulnerable groups and should help to ensure that existing services are maintained and that priority is given to the delivery of front-line services. The HSE has informed me that it is working closely with service providers in 2011, including Ability West, to ensure the maximum delivery of services in an efficient and effective manner, with priority being given to those in greatest need. The HSE was provided with an additional €10 million for disability services this year to provide for the anticipated extra demand in emergency residential, respite and personal assistant-home support hours for people with disabilities, and day places for school leavers in September of this year. Taking the reduction in the overall HSE disability budget into account, the HSE was asked to manage the additional resources and engage with service providers to ensure that existing support needs, and demands for additional places and supports, are managed effectively within the overall allocation.

The level of funding available for the overall health budget is being considered as part of the comprehensive review of expenditure and Estimates process for 2012 which is currently under way. Deliberations by the Government on the expenditure allocations for next year are likely to continue right up to budget time and it would not be appropriate for me to comment further at this stage pending the outcome of those deliberations. The very difficult financial position facing the Exchequer will obviously require very careful management across all areas of expenditure.

A major priority for the Government in the coming months will be to finalise the current value for money and policy review of disability services to ensure that existing funding for people with disabilities is spent to best effect. The review is expected to be completed by the end of this year. It will make recommendations that will ensure that the very substantial funding provided to the specialist disability health sector is used to maximum benefit for persons with a disability, having regard to overall resource constraints which affect all sectors at this difficult time. I thank the Deputy again for raising this matter.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. While I understand that no decision will be made at this stage two weeks in advance of the budget, it is important that consultation continues between the organisations and the Minister. I know from meeting representatives of the organisations that they are very open to working within the budget they are given. Like many organisations, they have experienced many cuts during recent years and are now surviving on a very strict budget. Any further harsh cuts will severely affect their ability to provide the services they deliver. I ask that before any budget decisions are made, these organisations be involved in those discussions to give them every opportunity to see how they can best deliver these services. These are the most vulnerable people in society and we must do everything we can to protect them. The only way to do that is to work with the service providers.

I fully accept the points made by the Deputy in this regard. I will relay those views to the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, who has responsibility for this area. I can assure the Deputy that the circumstances in which we are operating are very difficult and it is always to the fore of everybody's mind in government to ensure in so far as we possibly can that services for the most vulnerable are protected.

Prison Visiting Committees

I want to focus on two reports, the first being the report of the visiting committee into the Dóchas Centre. Two incidents are cited in the welfare section of that report about which I wish to ask the Minister. The first incident occurred in May of last year. The report states there was an incident where a prisoner was forcibly removed in circumstances which the visiting committee felt were in violation of the prisoner's human rights. The committee went on to state in the report that it has written several letters which have gone unanswered. Can the Minister comment on whether this incident is still under review and, if it is, when he expects an outcome to the investigation?

The second incident relates to the manner in which searches are conducted in the Dóchas Centre. As the Minister is aware, the visiting committee highlighted the manner in which the BOSS chair is used in the prison and in particular made reference to incidents where female prisoners were required to remove clothing in the presence of male officers. A media report attributed to the Minister comments that this was not the case and that male officers were not present. Regardless of whether they were present, the purpose of the BOSS chair is to be non-intrusive. The report uses words such as "unnecessary", "humiliating" and "degrading". Was a formal complaint made by any prisoner about being stripped in front of male officers? If so, when was the complaint made? Is it still under investigation? When did the Minister become aware of it?

I wish to touch briefly on a second issue.

You are eating into your colleague's time.

It is with regard to Cork Prison. The report mentions that a new slopping out vessel will be introduced. Will the Minister clarify what this is and how it will improve conditions?

This is a fundamental human rights issue. The revelations in the report about practices in the women's prison are very worrying. They indicate a move away from the ethos which used to prevail of a progressive and rehabilitative outlook to one which is much more punitive. As somebody who spent a month there I am well aware of the set-up in the Dóchas Centre, and this is an extremely worrying trend which will be bad for the women and the staff.

At the root of many of the problems highlighted by the report is the issue of overcrowding. At one stage 150 women were in the facility which was designed for 85 people. This is double the number in a very small area and goes completely against the idea of respect and dignity and people having their own space.

The two cases referred to by Deputy O'Brien are appalling. It is a scandal and it made me physically sick to read the accounts because of what they revealed. The practice of searching people in front of others, be they male or female, in a gym without proper protection after having locked down the facility and maintaining searches had no purpose other than to degrade. As somebody who was strip-searched, albeit not, thankfully, in those circumstances, it is an extremely humiliating and vulnerable position for anybody to be in. I want an investigation into whether it was carried out in the manner in which it is alleged.

I am aware of reports in which the Minister disputed some of the findings. I ask that the internal report be published. There should be an independent investigation into the incidents and I agree this reinforces the need for an independent complaints mechanism to exist in prisons.

Will the Minister comment on the other issue, which is the slopping out situation? Several weeks ago in answer to a question I asked, the Minister stated 830 prisoners did not have access to 24-hour in-cell sanitation, of which 555 shared a cell. What is the timescale for addressing these issues? We need a process to investigate them publicly.

I thank Deputies O'Brien and Daly for raising these important matters and for the opportunity to speak on some of the issues which occurred in our prisons in 2010, prior to my appointment as Minister for Justice and Equality.

I published the Prison Visiting Committees' annual reports for 2010 on 18 November 2011. They highlight a number of issues relating to prison conditions and services. There is also an acknowledgement, however, of the efforts made by the Irish Prison Service management and staff to address these despite limited resources. I have absolutely no doubt that further improvements are needed. The Government remains committed to tackling overcrowding and poor physical conditions in our prisons and to eliminating, where possible, the problem of slopping out.

An extensive project to upgrade and provide in-cell sanitation to more than 100 cells in Mountjoy Prison will be completed shortly. The Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, recently wrote to me congratulating my Department and the Irish Prison Service on the work carried out in this regard. A similar renovation of B Division will result in 317 cells, almost 60% of the total prison, in Mountjoy Prison having in-cell sanitation by the end of next year. The completion of the Midlands Prison extension and the provision of 70 extra dormitory-style spaces in the Dóchas Centre will mean that approximately 80% of the prison estate will have in-cell sanitation by mid 2012.

I am pleased also to inform the House that the World Health Organisation has awarded a health in prisons best practice award 2011 to the recently-opened high support unit in Mountjoy Prison; and to the Red Cross project which has been rolled out in Wheatfield, Cloverhill, Shelton Abbey and Mountjoy Prisons.

I now turn to the issues with regard to the Dóchas Centre to which the Deputies made reference, both of which occurred in 2010. The House will appreciate that all prisons are subject to search procedures to maintain safety and security and there are specific rules governing the search of prisons and prisoners. Rule 6 of the Prison Rules 2007 provides that prisoners can be searched where the Governor considers, upon reasonable grounds, that such search is necessary for the purposes of ensuring that a prisoner is not in possession of a prohibited article, confiscating a prohibited article and ensuring safe and secure custody and good government of the prison. Searches conducted under this rule may consist of the removal and examination of all the prisoner's clothing and the examination of the prisoner's body in as seemly a manner as is consistent with the necessity of discovering any concealed article. A search under this rule must be undertaken by a prison officer of the same gender as the prisoner being searched.

I am informed by the Irish Prison Service that the search undertaken on 9 November 2010 prior to my appointment as Minister and commented on by the visiting committee, was a targeted search for contraband undertaken by staff from the operational support group, OSG. The OSG team comprised of staff drawn from a number of prisons. The function of the male officers was to search areas of the Dóchas Centre where female prisoners were not present including prisoners' rooms, recreational areas, visiting areas, kitchen, roof-top, workshops, the school and yard.

All prisoners were brought to the reception by Dóchas Centre staff to be searched and placed on the BOSS chair, supervised by a female OSG officer. Two female assistant chief officers attached to the Dóchas Centre supervised the operation while prisoners were coming and going from the area. I have been assured that all other staff in the area were female and attached to the Dóchas Centre. On completion of the search in the reception area, all prisoners were escorted to the gym area where they remained for the duration of the search operation, supervised by Dóchas Centre staff. No further searching of prisoners occurred while they were in the gym. At no time was the BOSS chair located in the gym.

All individual searching of the women prisoners was carried out by female staff. The visiting committee, in its report, states female offenders were required to remove their clothing, including underwear, in the presence of male officers. I have been assured by the Irish Prison Service that this did not happen. The use of the BOSS chair does not necessitate a person being stripped of their clothing. On this occasion, all prisoners placed on the chair were covered in towels to protect their modesty having had their clothing removed at an earlier search stage. The chair includes a flat metal detector which is affixed to the seat. When an inmate sits on the chair it scans the person's body cavities in a non-intrusive manner and an alarm will sound if contraband is detected.

The search teams confiscated a number of items which appeared to be non-prison issue property for a prisoner in a closed prison. Any such items were recorded and retained and given to the management of the centre on the understanding that management would determine whether such items were allowed in the prison. I understand these included scissors, screwdrivers, pliers, drugs, mobile phones, phone chargers, a syringe, a metal comb with a sharpened end, alcohol and various other contraband items.

Following a meeting with the Inspector of Prisons concerning the Dóchas Centre search operation, all staff have been circulated with guidelines on the use of the BOSS chair. The Governor has supplies of dressing gowns for all future searches and has advised that subsequent searches have not raised the same issues. As Minister, I regard it as unacceptable that towels only and not dressing gowns were made available to prisoners for the search detailed in the 2010 report of the visiting committee. It was also unacceptable that the prisoners were covered by towels only when being scanned by the BOSS chair. This should not have occurred. I am informed that procedures are now in place which respect the dignity of the prisoner and ensure that searches are conducted in a professional manner by the staff involved and I expect these procedures to be fully complied with.

As regards the release of a prisoner from the Dóchas Centre, I have been informed that the director general of the Irish Prison Service had the circumstances surrounding the release investigated. The investigation found there were some procedural failures and these issues were dealt with directly by the director general with the Governor of the Dóchas Centre to ensure that such a situation could not re-occur in future. I regard the manner in which this prisoner was treated as entirely unacceptable.

The report also made a number of recommendations on the incident and a working group has been established to oversee their implementation. This group is due to meet in the near future and consists of the Governor of the Dóchas Centre, the Governor of Mountjoy, the director of operations and representatives from both human resources and operations directorates. Arising from the work of the implementation group, it is envisaged that a comprehensive set of guidelines on releases will be issued to ensure such a situation does not occur in future.

I thank the Minister for his response and note his personal opinion on what happened in the Dóchas Centre. My second question was about in-cell sanitation facilities in Cork Prison. The report states a new slopping out vessel is being introduced. What is meant by "a new slopping out vessel" and how will it improve matters?

I appreciate that the Minister has said some of the practices are unacceptable and that is important. However, there is a contradiction between what was stated in some of the visiting committees' reports and what was stated subsequently by the Irish Prison Service. Will the Minister, therefore, examine the idea of publishing the findings of the internal investigation into the incidents mentioned because completely different things have been said?

Overcrowding and doubling up are the cause of many problems in prisons. In-cell sanitation facilities are not an issue in the Dóchas Centre, but to promote this positively as being addressed by the provision of 70 dormitory places in the centre is not appropriate. It is a backward step. There are in-cell sanitation facilities in all rooms in the centre. However, having 70 dormitory places in the facility will be a nightmare. Having women trebling or quadrupling up in a dormitory will be a nightmare both for inmates and staff. The Minister needs to address the change of ethos in the facility.

I will allow the Minister to reply briefly, although we have gone over time.

I will try to be rapid. I visited Cork Prison where a new procedure to replace what they used to use in the context of slopping out is being put in place. I will have a detailed letter sent to Deputy O'Brien about that issue because I am conscious of the time constraints.

On the second issue, the prisons are overcrowded. Successive Governments failed adequately to address the problem. We are doing what we can within limited resources. Providing additional places in the Dóchas Centre was not of relevance to the slopping out issue; it was responding to the issue raised about overcrowding in the centre. Additional bed facilities will be provided.

It is expected that 300 additional cells will be provided in Mountjoy Prison with in-cell sanitation during the course of 2012. Given the limited resources available to me, I cannot move as quickly as I would like to, but we will do what we can to make up for the years of neglect in the prisons. We will also ensure proper and appropriate facilities that should be available in the 21st century are ultimately made available. However, we cannot redress ten years of neglect overnight.

Health Services

Ba mhaith liom buíochas a ghlacadh leis an Aire as ucht teacht isteach sa Teach anocht chun an cheist seo a thógáil. Go bunúsach, tógadh Áras Rónáin i gCill Rónáin in Inis Mór sa bhliain 1999 nuair a tháinig an pobal le chéile chun teach altranais a thógáil mar aon le tithíocht shóisialta do sheandaoine. Thug an tAire Comhshaoil a bhí ann ag an am, Bobby Molloy, cead cuid den fhoirgneamh a úsáid mar theach altranais agus an chuid eile den ionad a úsáid mar thithíocht shóisialta. Bhí 18 aonad sóisialta ann agus deich leaba lán aimseartha sa teach altranais, móide dhá leaba faoisimh. Nuair a bhí an t-aonad tógtha, tógadh ar lámh é ó Respond go dtí coiste Áras Rónáin agus tá siadsan ag déanamh cúram don áit le cúnamh ón HSE ó shin. Chomh maith leis sin, bhí páirt nach beag ag Comharchumann na nOileán sa scéal. Caithfidh mé a rá go raibh sé de phribhléid agam go raibh cúnamh á thabhairt dóibh teacht ar an réiteach nuálaíoch cruthaíoch a thángthas air leis an áit seo a rith.

Ó tógadh an teach altranais, tá na leapacha ar fad lán an t-am ar fad. Go deimhin, bhíodh ar chuid de na daoine a bhí ag lorg leapa sa teach altranais dul go dtí an mórthír le haghaidh leaba altranais a fháil. Ag an am céanna, níor bhaineadh leas iomlán as na haonaid chónaithe a bhí curtha ar fáil agus d'fhan dhá thrian de na haonaid sin folamh. Nuair a bhí Noel Ahern mar Aire Stáit, thug sé cead cuid de na haonaid tithíochta sóisialta a aistriú gan aon aisíoc, le haghaidh cur leis an teach altranais. Ní dhearnadh an obair sin, ach glacadh leis i bprionsabal. Tá fíor-dhroch aonad príomhúil nó ionad sláinte ar an oiléan. Tá sé an-dona ar fad. Tá an HSE ag rá go mbeadh sé an-chiallmhar dá mbeadh aonad príomhúil le haghaidh an oileán ar fad lonnaithe ar láthair Áras Rónáin agus go ndéanfaí aistriú ar chuid de na haonaid tithíochta isteach ina ionad príomhúil sláinte. Níl á lorg acu ón Aire ach cead é sin a dhéanamh. Níl siad ag iarraidh air ach breathnú ar seo san iomlán agus a rá gur ar mhaithe le pobal an oileáin atá an rud ar fad. Níl ach Rialtas amháin sa tír. Ba chóir go dtabharfaí cead don choiste áitiúil dul go dtí an HSE. Tá sé mar aidhm ag an gcoiste, in ionad na haonaid tithíochta a bheith ann, go n-aithneofaí cuid acu — seacht gcinn, sílim — mar ionad príomhúil sláinte. Réiteodh sé sin an fhadhb a bhaineann leis an droch-ionad sláinte. Cuireadh sé na seirbhísí sláinte ar fad ar an oileán ar aon láthair amháin. Mar a deirim, níl aon airgead i gceist ó thaobh na Roinne.

Tá súil agam go mbeidh dea-scéala ag an Aire dom tráthnóna. Ba cheart don Rialtas an rud ciallmhar a dhéanamh. Tá súil agam go dtuigtear nach bhfuil aon athrú úinéireachta i gceist. Níl aon athrú bunúsach i gceist ó thaobh úsáid na háise de. Is le pobal an oileáin — agus le haostaigh an oileáin, go speisialta — a bheidh sé seo ann. Bheadh sé iontach dá mbeadh an aonad príomhúil sláinte in áit agus seirbhísí ar nós teiripe urlabhra agus fisiteiripe lonnaithe ar aon láthair amháin. Tá súil agam go mbeidh dea-scéala ag an Aire dom, agus go dtabharfar litir don choiste ag rá go bhfuil cead acu dul ar aghaidh leis seo. Ba chóir go mbeadh an HSE in ann an aonaid phríomhúil a aistriú ón áit ina bhfuil sé, atá thar a bheith mí-oiriúnach, suas go dtí láthair Áras Rónáin, ar an Mhainistir i gCill Rónáin.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to express my appreciation of the good work done by the voluntary housing sector in Ireland. The sector works in close co-operation with local authorities and other statutory bodies to deliver many local services for the public.

Last June my Department launched a new housing policy framework which puts the voluntary and co-operative sector at the very heart of social housing provision. I will use the substantial expertise and momentum the sector has built up in recent years in meeting our shared objective of providing housing for those who cannot do so from their own resources.

With regard to Áras Rónáin on Inis Mór, the project was constructed about ten years ago with grant assistance of €2.4 million from my Department to meet a specific housing need for elderly persons on the island. The facility includes a group home and 18 units for independent living. I am pleased to see the voluntary body in question has worked in close co-operation with the HSE in the delivery of care services locally. I understand both the HSE and the voluntary body want to consolidate care services at Áras Rónáin, using part of the existing residential facility for this purpose.

In the case of all projects funded under the capital assistance scheme, it is a condition that the facilities are used for their intended purpose and that the investment by the taxpayer is protected. The approved housing body must enter into a mortgage agreement with the local authority for a period of 30 years. In cases where the accommodation provided under the capital assistance scheme is no longer used for its intended purpose, the mortgage must be redeemed in full or transferred to another approved body. In the case of Áras Rónáin, the voluntary body is the de facto owner of the properties, subject to the terms of the mortgage deed.

My Department wants to be as supportive as possible in consolidating care services at Áras Rónáin. To this end, it wrote to the voluntary body last month asking for specific information on the number of units required for the care facility. Given that the terms of the mortgage deed could be an issue, we asked if a lease arrangement could be put in place between the housing body and the HSE. To date, we have not received a response. I hope we can make progress on the basis of the lease arrangement.

This seems to be one of those cases involving a voluntary group in which all sorts of legalities and difficulties are being thrown up. I am sure that as a backbencher for many years, the Minister threw up his hands in despair about how pedantic the State could become. In this case the lessee will be the HSE. I often used to ask the question when in government, "Can we get it into our heads that there is only one Government in the country?" The agencies involved should not act as if they are competing against each other. It was hard to get that message across and the Minister will also find it hard. I know, however, that with his determination he will overcome that "silo" view of the world. Will he try to expedite this issue and agree to a meeting between Coiste Áras Rónáin, the HSE, departmental officials and the county council? That would help the committee in providing the relevant information and might simplify the procedures required to be followed. Ultimately, the State is the tenant and I cannot understand the reason we must make matters so complicated. I am sure if all the parties involved got around the table, they would crack in one day what might take months to crack with letters going back and forth. I have experience of trying to get the State to move away from the "silo" attitude and know it can be difficult. However, I hope the Minister, like me, will do his best to ensure this attitude does not prevail.

I am delighted the Deputy's long experience is coming into play, as he has a great reputation of beinga ble to knock heads together in agencies and local authorities. I am sure he could try it on this occasion also. If there is a response to the letter we have sent, we can see what progress can be made. We must receive a response in line with the terms and conditions of what was approved ten years ago. There is a legal difficulty in sorting the matter in the manner in which Áras Rónáin wishes to resolve it. There is a solution, however, if we go down the route of a leasing arrangement. I am certainly prepared to work with the Deputy to ensure the lack of co-operation sometimes evident between agencies can be overcome.

There are two agencies involved.

I understand that and that the Deputy has much experience. He had plenty of opportunities to ensure we had fewer rather than more agencies.

I am trying to solve the problem and the manner I suggest involves a leasing arrangement that could be entered into under certain conditions. If we receive a response to the initiative taken by the Department, perhaps we might make progress.

What about the HSE? If one set of conditions is laid down, the HSE might not be happy; the result is that we are caught between two State agencies. Will the Department liaise directly with the HSE to sort out the matter?

If I receive a response to the letter, I will be prepared to revert to the Deputy to see where we can make progress.

That would be appreciated.

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