Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 Nov 2011

Vol. 748 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 9, motion re membership of committee; No. 10, motion re leave to introduce Supplementary Estimates [Votes 25, 34 and 37]; No.11, motion re referral of Supplementary Estimates [Votes 25, 34 and 37] to select sub-committee; No.11a, Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Bill 2011 — Financial Resolution, on the supplementary Order Paper; No. 4, Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Bill 2011 — Order for Second Stage, Second and Subsequent Stages; and No. a1, Water Services (Amendment) Bill 2011 [Seanad] — Second Stage, on the supplementary Order Paper.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and shall adjourn not later than 10.30 p.m.; Nos. 9, 10, 11a, and subject to the agreement of Nos. 10 and 11, shall be decided without debate and any divisions demanded on Nos. 10 and 11 shall be taken forthwith; Second and Subsequent Stages of No. 4 shall be taken today and the following arrangements shall apply — the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 10 p.m.; the opening speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 20 minutes in each case; the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed ten minutes in each case; Members may share time; and a Minister or Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; the proceedings on the Committee and Remaining Stages shall commence immediately upon the conclusion of Second Stage and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 30 minutes or at 10.30 p.m., whichever is the earlier, by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. Private Members’ business shall be No. 40, motion re social welfare rates.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 9, 10, 11 and 11a agreed?

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is not agreed. The referral to committee, without debate, of Vote 34, dealing with jobs, enterprise and innovation, relates to an underspend in Enterprise Ireland of €12 million. Given that there is such a crisis for indigenous enterprises and their difficulties and failure to source funding, there should be a debate on why €12 million has been underspent in Enterprise Ireland. I ask the Government to allow such a debate.

The Taoiseach

We can do that on Monday when the Dáil sits to deal with the Estimates. The Deputy will have an opportunity to tease out that issue at that stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

The motion is about a referral of Supplementary Estimates to the select sub-committee. It is not actually——

Deputy Gerry Adams

I understand that. We wanted to debate it before it is referred. Every one of us has taken complaints and queries from small businesses that cannot get funding, yet this is a €12 million underspend.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am simply pointing out the technicality.

The Taoiseach

It will be in committee on 7 December.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will we be allowed to attend?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

On a point of order, are we discussing the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Bill?

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is what I wish to comment on.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is part of the proposal.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is part of the proposal. Is that correct?

Deputy Joe Higgins

That is the third proposal. This is the second proposal.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is it the second or third proposal?

An Ceann Comhairle

We will deal with the second and third Stages with the third proposal. Are we agreed on proposal No. 2?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Does that deal with the referral to the sub-committee?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. Is that agreed?

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is not agreed but I have made my point. We wanted a debate. Deputy Micheál Martin has been helpful by telling me that we can go to the committee and so forth but that is besides the point.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I accept the Deputy's point and I accept his right to say it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Adams, I take it you are not calling a vote. Is that correct?

Deputy Gerry Adams

Not yet.

An Ceann Comhairle

Your disagreement is noted. The proposal is agreed.

Is proposal No. 3 for dealing with No. 4, Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Bill 2011 — Order for Second Stage and Second and Remaining Stages, agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed. I oppose the proposal of the Taoiseach in this regard because it is completely inappropriate to guillotine the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest (Amendment) Bill 2011. The Order of Business as proposed only allows for half an hour to complete Committee and Report and Final Stages despite the fact that Opposition parties have tabled 21 amendments. The amendments are serious, substantive and are designed to save the taxpayer money. Are we serious about political reform? I am unsure what it says about the attitude of the Government in terms of political reform when it seeks to use its overwhelming majority to ram through a measure such as this in half an hour. It is incredible and unjustified. I call for this to be reconsidered and for some time to be allowed to debate Committee and Report Stages. Even if a vote is taken on Second Stage, as the order stands the vote would take time out of the half an hour allocated for discussion of 21 amendments. This is farcical in terms of how we order our business in the House. I call on the Taoiseach to reconsider this and to allow time for Committee and Report Stages tomorrow.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I oppose the guillotine imposed on the debate. This totally flies against the Taoiseach's assertion that he seeks a more open, inclusive and transparent Dáil. Half an hour is allocated for more than 20 amendments of which our party has put forward a substantial number. Our Deputies have done their work diligently but the debate will not get beyond the second or third amendment.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Boyd Barrett on behalf of People Before Profit. I am not being smart when I say that but I am pointing out that you must be in a party.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I think they know that by now but I appreciate the point. It is completely unacceptable to impose a guillotine on this Bill. The financial emergency measures are taken in the context of the current economic crisis that we are facing. We all agree that emergency measures are necessary but one must have time to debate them. People throughout the House will have ideas about what is in the Bill and what should be in the Bill. We want time to hear and consider the debate and to put forward amendments and suggestions for the type of financial emergency measures we need to deal with the current economic situation. I appeal to the Taoiseach to lift the guillotine and to allow for a proper debate and proper consideration of the Bill.

Deputy Joe Higgins

We can be helpful to the Taoiseach. Until yesterday, the draft schedule included the Local Government (Household Charges) Bill 2011 for Thursday and had approximately five hours of debating time set aside for it, too little time in any case. Despite the Tánaiste promising me on Thursday that legislation would be with us at the weekend and that it would be debated on Thursday, we have not had sight of it and it has been withdrawn from discussion on Thursday.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

It is gone.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Therefore, the Government has five extra hours available and, therefore, there is no excuse for insisting on this guillotine. Since the matter is somewhat related, will the Taoiseach explain to us now why the Local Government (Household Charges) Bill has not appeared and what is going on?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Boyd Barrett referred to financial emergency measures but this is to do with the question of judicial pay. Some 80% of the people——

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It could relate to other measures.

The Taoiseach

This refers specifically to the issue of the referendum on judges' pay.

Deputy Micheál Martin

And that of public servants.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

There are other matters.

An Ceann Comhairle

Through the Chair, please.

The Taoiseach

This is an issue on which almost 80% of the people gave their approval in a referendum and the legislation refers to this issue. Given the current list of speakers, this will finish by 9.25 p.m. The House will have time to deal with some of the amendments tabled. The financial emergency measures legislation is dealing with the question of judges' pay.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There are other amendments.

The Taoiseach

The Local Government (Household Charges) Bill was to have been published. The Attorney General is having another look at one or two questions related to it and certainly it is not on the agenda for this week.

Deputy Joe Higgins

What questions are they?

The Taoiseach

The question Deputy Higgins asked related to the reasons behind this. The reason is that the Attorney General must examine one or two aspects of it.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Which aspects?

An Ceann Comhairle

We are not dealing with that issue at the moment.

The Taoiseach

I am not at liberty to inform the Deputy about what exactly the Attorney General is being asked to focus on but Deputy Higgins can take it and he may put his mind at ease that it will not be on the agenda this week.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He is dealing with Labour Party concerns.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with No. 4 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 92; Níl, 46.

Tá

• Bannon, James.
• Barry, Tom.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Collins, Áine.
• Conaghan, Michael.
• Conlan, Seán.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Coonan, Noel.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Coveney, Simon.
• Creed, Michael.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Farrell, Alan.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Hogan, Phil.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Keating, Derek.
• Keaveney, Colm.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Ciarán.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• Lyons, John.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McFadden, Nicky.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Maloney, Eamonn.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Nash, Gerald.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Nulty, Patrick.
• Ó Ríordáin, Aodhán.
• O’Donnell, Kieran.
• O’Donovan, Patrick.
• O’Mahony, John.
• O’Reilly, Joe.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Perry, John.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Phelan, John Paul.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Spring, Arthur.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Timmins, Billy.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Walsh, Brian.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Adams, Gerry.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Browne, John.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Niall.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Doherty, Pearse.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• Martin, Micheál.
• McConalogue, Charlie
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McGrath, Michael.
• McGuinness, John.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Troy, Robert.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Notwithstanding the very significant commitments in regard to mortgage interest relief for hard-pressed householders and the undertakings in regard to the implementation of the recommendations of the Keane report, will the Taoiseach indicate when he envisages the personal insolvency Bill will be brought before the House? In addition, will the Government take a more proactive approach to progressing the Bill brought forward by Deputy Michael McGrath through the House as urgently as possible? That legislation would give genuine relief to hard-pressed mortgage holders and people with significant household debt. A considerable period has passed since the publication of the Keane report and there is no evidence of anything emanating from the Government side. Deputy McGrath's Bill should be progressed, not simply left to rest indefinitely with the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

As somebody who raised this subject from the opposite side of the House in 2008, I fully support Deputy Martin's suggestion. Mortgage holders throughout the country have been struggling for the past four years and are now in a very vulnerable situation. I applaud the Government's efforts thus far in this area. It is hugely important that we proceed with the necessary realignments as soon as possible.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Did Deputy Durkan support our Private Members' proposal?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is a pity that Members opposite, when in government, did not practise what they now preach.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Justice and Equality hopes to bring the heads of the personal insolvency Bill to the Oireachtas committee before the end of the year, as we agreed to do. We expect the full and final Bill to be published in the first quarter of 2012. There are several very technical and complex issues involved.

In respect of mortgages generally, this is a matter of considerable concern to us. The banking policy division of the Department of Finance has been requested to continue its discussions with the banks in order to bring about implementation of several measures in the Keane report. Some of the issues can be dealt with more quickly than others. The report was discussed in the House. It is an issue of very considerable importance to the Government and to everybody else.

Deputy Micheál Martin

What about Deputy Michael McGrath's Bill?

Deputy Anne Ferris

When is it proposed to take Committee Stage of the Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill 2010? It passed Second Stage in October 2010, was restored to the Order Paper after the election and is currently awaiting Committee Stage.

The Taoiseach

I understand some 300 amendments are being prepared to improve that Bill. It should be brought to the committee before the end of January.