Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 9 Dec 2011

Vol. 749 No. 3

Order of Business

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. 9, motion re appointment of members of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, back from committee; and No. a4, Social Welfare Bill 2011 — Second Stage (Resumed) and Subsequent Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. 9 shall be decided without debate and that the following arrangements will apply in respect of No. a4: the proceedings on the resumed Second Stage will, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 1.30 p.m.; and the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages will commence immediately at the conclusion of Second Stage and, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 3.30 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and shall, in respect of amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Social Protection.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 9 agreed to?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

My party will not agree, as there is no motion to reconvene the Dáil on Monday to allow time to discuss the detail and serious implications of what is being put to the people.

Deputy Tom Barry

I am surprised the Deputy does not want it to take place on Sunday.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

It is remarkable that we must rely on sources elsewhere in Europe to access this information which we have not had a chance to debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy. This is a straightforward proposal on the arrangements for taking No. 9 solely. We cannot stray into other areas.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

We are objecting. I am genuinely shocked that there is nothing on the page——

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

How can the Government have it said in Europe that the people have agreed to a set of proposals that gave away our sovereignty, when there has not even been a discussion on these measures in the House? It is outrageous.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should resume his seat.

The Tánaiste

Prime Minister Cameron is on Deputy Mac Lochlainn's side.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I am surprised Deputy McDonald is not doing the running on this proposal.

The Tánaiste

It is not true that the issue of the European summit has not been discussed. We had a three hour debate on it yesterday.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

But not on the measures as they affect the people.

The Tánaiste

In addition, a new procedure saw the Taoiseach attend the House last week to set out what was to be discussed by the European Council. We have made arrangements for him to revert to the House when it reconvenes next week to give a report on what was discussed at the European summit.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 9 be agreed to," put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. a4 agreed to?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Not agreed.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

No. More and more issues are arising with the Social Welfare Bill and it has become apparent the disregard of home help income is to be eliminated.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the contents of the Bill.

Deputy Barry Cowen

It sets the context.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

There are issues with family income supplement, disability allowances and community employment schemes. No doubt the Government will be told that, for some arbitrary reason, the Dáil must pass the Bill today. It will affect people's lives next year. Some will lose hundreds of euro thanks to the decisions that will be rammed through the House today. I received an e-mail from a woman this morning——

An Ceann Comhairle

We will not mind e-mails for the moment.

Deputy Barry Cowen

We will hear about it at our clinics tomorrow.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can hear about the e-mail when we debate the Bill, but I am sure it has nothing to do with the arrangements for the taking of Second and Subsequent Stages.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

It is about the arrangements.

Deputy Barry Cowen

It is about the manner in which the Bill is being rammed through the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Deputy Ó Cuív stick to the proposal, please?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

The e-mail is from a woman who will lose €330 a month because she is a carer and her husband is in receipt of family income supplement.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not interested in e-mails other than those which relate to this issue.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

From the bottom of my heart, I ask the Tánaiste to put politics aside, allow Second Stage to continue until 3.30 p.m. and a detailed debate to take place next week on the Bill's serious provisions which will hurt people badly. The Government should give itself time to reflect on and amend some of the proposals made. Some of the measures proposed will not save significant amounts of money. It is impossible——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is only entitled to give a short explanation as to why he is not agreeing to the allocation of time motion. Other Deputies wish to contribute.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

It is like a Second Stage speech.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I am trying to impress on the Tánaiste how vital it is that we all stand back, to reflect on this issue——

An Ceann Comhairle

We will do that in one moment.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

——and debate it in more detail next week having had the weekend to consider it——

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

What about the way the Deputy signed the bank bailout by telephone in the middle of the night?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

——and make necessary changes to proposals that will only save a small amount of money but which will hurt people badly. The Tánaiste knows this to be the case, given the reaction to the budget.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I object to the rushed passage of the Bill which will cut the contributory State pension and allowances for lone parents.

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot discuss the contents of the Bill. This is purely a technical motion.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

We have not even dealt with the manner in which the Government proposes to devastate community employment schemes across the State. Job creation, how are you? I object to the manner in which the Bill is being processed through the House and the indecent haste with which the Government is prepared to butcher €800 million from the social welfare bill.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is not €800 million; it is €455 million.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is astonishing that the Labour Party and the Tánaiste as its leader are standing over such cuts.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can discuss all of these matters during the debate.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is bad enough, but the Government is also insisting on the Bill being rushed through the Dáil.

Deputy Anthony Lawlor

What about Northern Ireland?

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Why does Fine Gael not stand for election there, too?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

That is a good point.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Higgins to discuss what is a technical issue.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I oppose the guillotining of the debate on the Social Welfare Bill.

This time last year, as the Minister for Finance, Deputy Lenihan, unveiled his budget, screams of anguish reverberated through the corridors of Leinster House. The Labour Party's finance spokesman Deputy Burton was feeling the pain of the poor, the lone parents and, especially, the women of Ireland.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

A history lesson.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I dare say the Minister must be aware people with children took the biggest cuts this year and last year.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

She is not even here.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is straying. We do not want any quotations from last year.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Let us remember child benefit is paid almost universally to women. I suppose that is a comment on how few women are Members of this House and what little power women exercise compared to bankers.

This day, in an extraordinary transformation, the same Deputy Burton is now the tormentor of the women and children of Ireland.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is nothing to do with the technical motion before the House.

Deputy Tom Hayes

I wonder is the Minister in Deputy Higgins's constituency.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy not to abuse this. I am anxious for him to have his say but not on a technical motion. He can say all these things when we get into the debate.

Deputy Joe Higgins

The nub of it is that mná na hÉireann and leanaí na hÉireann are bewildered by this massive about-face and need an explanation.

An Ceann Comhairle

About the fact we are finishing at 3.30 p.m.?

Deputy Joe Higgins

We need, therefore, far more time for Deputy Burton, now Minister for — allegedly — Social Protection, to come into the Dáil and explain the extraordinary transformation and to do so section by section. She must think that along with her pain, a general anaesthetic should be administered to the same women and children whose state she bewailed last year.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point about the lack of time. He must resume his seat.

Deputy Joe Higgins

The Tánaiste, on behalf of the Labour Party, must explain the absolute about-face in regard to these issues.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, when we get to the debate.

Deputy Barry Cowen

A few clinics tomorrow back in the constituencies.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Therefore, we need far more time for the Minister and the Tánaiste on behalf of the Labour Party to explain why now they are carrying out these savage cuts on behalf of the same bankers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is looking for time and I will ask the Tánaiste about that in a moment. I am sure when I call Deputy Boyd Barrett that he will understand what he is entitled to say.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Ceann Comhairle knows I understand.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a Friday so give us all a break.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

This is a serious issue and the Tánaiste knows it. People are reeling with shock; lone parents, low income families and the elderly are reeling from the attacks meted out in this Bill. The very least they deserve is that the full implications of the attacks on their living standings are explained, particularly the Government's commitment to labour activation measures designed to get people back to work, when it is absolutely clear that, particularly for lone parents, these measures are a direct disincentive to work.

An Ceann Comhairle

We can discuss that when we get to the section.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

They will drive lone parents out of work and back into poverty.

These serious implications deserve to be discussed in detail and not rammed through in this way by a Government that promised a new type of politics and a new type of openness and transparency. These austerity measures are being rammed through in an unfair and undemocratic way.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

There will be 1,000 people outside the gates of Dáil Éireann appealing for a proper debate and a reversal of these cuts. Will the Tánaiste at least allow for a proper discussion?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point. He can resume his seat and we will ask the Tánaiste to explain the arrangements.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

It will take some explaining.

The Tánaiste

The Government is providing more time for the debate on the Social Welfare Bill. There is 50% more time being provided for the debate on the Social Welfare Bill this year than was provided last year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There are 50% more cuts.

Deputy Barry Cowen

There are more cuts targeted at the vulnerable.

The Tánaiste

Deputies cannot come in here today and argue for more time when yesterday they voted against the extra day's sitting the Government is providing for this Bill, today's sitting. This is the extra day's sitting.

Deputy Barry Cowen

What is the Tánaiste on?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is nonsense.

The Tánaiste

A huge amount of time is being provided for the debate. The Bill will go to the Seanad next week and if the Seanad makes amendments, it will come back into the Dáil and there is plenty of time. I ask Members for accuracy in the debate.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Ah hello.

The Tánaiste

It is not true, Deputy McDonald, that the Government is making €800 million of cuts in social welfare.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In a full year it is.

The Tánaiste

In fact, it is €190 million less than was proposed by Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

There are €811 million of cuts in a full year.

Deputy Barry Cowen

It was actually fairer last time round.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Mr. Angry is not exactly Mr. Accuracy.

The Tánaiste

Secondly, it is not true that the Government is closing down community employment schemes.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

It is.

Deputy Barry Cowen

It is just closing the doors.

The Tánaiste

The Government is providing additional money for labour activation measures.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

Not for community employment schemes; it is slashing the training budget.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Wait until a few clinics tomorrow.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Not for lone parents. The money is being taken from lone parents.

An Ceann Comhairle: The Deputy had his say. Will he stay quiet for a moment?

The Tánaiste

The amount of money being provided for employment support measures through the Department of Social Protection in 2012 is almost €100 million more than was provided last year.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

I thought this was a technical issue about the sitting?

The Tánaiste

A little bit of accuracy and honesty from the Opposition benches would contribute to the debate.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Tánaiste should read the expenditure cuts outlined by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. He has obviously not read them.

The Tánaiste

I have no proposal from the Opposition for the amendment of the times provided here and, therefore, I wish to put the proposal.

(Interruptions).

Question put: "That the arrangements for dealing with No.a4 be agreed to.”

The Dáil divided by electronic means.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

The Tánaiste has, effectively, misrepresented the position of the Fianna Fáil Party on today's sitting, which we did not vote against yesterday.

Deputy Tom Hayes

This is ridiculous.

Deputy Robert Troy

Go back to Clonmel and close the barracks.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

The Deputy is former Senator Donie Cassidy's man.

Deputy Robert Troy

I am my own man. I was elected in my own right and I am not on the crest of a wave like the Deputy.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

We would welcome deferral of Committee Stage to next week to give Members an opportunity to consider the many insidious proposals contained in the Social Welfare Bill 2011. If the Tánaiste is not prepared——

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

What is the Deputy seeking?

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

As the Tánaiste is not prepared to accede to our request for the allocation of further time, as a Whip, under Standing Order 69, I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

An Ceann Comhairle

As a Whip, the Deputy Ó Fearghaíl is, under Standing Order 69, entitled to call for a vote through the lobbies.

Question again put: "That the arrangements for dealing with No. a4 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 77; Níl, 36.

Tá

• Bannon, James.
• Barry, Tom.
• Breen, Pat.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Bruton, Richard.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Joe.
• Collins, Áine.
• Conaghan, Michael.
• Conlan, Seán.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Conway, Ciara.
• Coonan, Noel.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Creed, Michael.
• Daly, Jim.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Donohoe, Paschal.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Hannigan, Dominic.
• Hayes, Brian.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Heather.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Keaveney, Colm.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kelly, Alan.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lyons, John.
• McEntee, Shane.
• McFadden, Nicky.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McHugh, Joe.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Mitchell O’Connor, Mary.
• Mitchell, Olivia.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Eoghan.
• Nash, Gerald.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Noonan, Michael.
• Nulty, Patrick.
• O’Donnell, Kieran.
• O’Donovan, Patrick.
• O’Mahony, John.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Reilly, James.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Sherlock, Sean.
• Shortall, Róisín.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Wall, Jack.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Browne, John.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Grealish, Noel.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Higgins, Joe.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Murphy, Catherine.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O’Brien, Jonathan.
• O’Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Troy, Robert.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Paul Kehoe; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question again declared carried.

Deputy Joe Higgins

On the Order of Business——

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, the Order of Business is out of time. We are 17 minutes and 46 seconds over the time.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

This is a joke.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is the problem.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Deputies opposite agreed to it.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Tánaiste might order the business to provide a little additional time.

An Ceann Comhairle

As the man says, I only obey the rules.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Government is bludgeoning the Parliament to death with its massive majority.

Deputy Joe Higgins

I seek a conversation about next week's business.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, we are out of time and I cannot do anything about it. You will have to agree this between the Whips.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I will discuss it with the Deputy in a few minutes.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Chief Whip is given a lot of time in here to talk.