Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 23 May 2012

Vol. 766 No. 2

Leaders’ Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach will attend the informal summit of leaders from across Europe later today, at which it is imperative radical action is taken to restore confidence and growth across Europe. The situation today is graver than it has been at any time during the past three years. There is no more room for manoeuvre and delay. It is essential that Europe takes critical steps on three basic issues, namely, the sovereign debt crisis, which must be tackled by the establishment of a more secure and larger facility for the purchase of Government bonds; the financial crisis, by ensuring that banks are capitalised to a level which ensures their long term survival is unquestioned across Europe, including dealing with Irish bank and mortgage debt; and, the jobs crisis, by utilising the eurozone's enormous resources to deliver immediate job creating investment. Minimalist approaches are no longer acceptable. People in Ireland should and must vote "Yes" in the upcoming referendum because this will give us the most secure and cheapest access to the funding we need to retain public services and pay pensions in the years ahead. Europe is on a precipice and we must do nothing here to push it over the edge.

It is in that context that I believe we should take the debate to the people. Political leaders should be willing to engage in a national debate with those advocating a "Yes" vote and those advocating a "No" vote. Many voters remain undecided. Some polls suggest up to 30% of people are undecided. I believe a leaders' debate should be facilitated. We live in a democracy. I understand that invitations for such a debate have issued from RTE, the public service broadcaster which has a particular responsibility in this regard. TV3 attempted to organise a leaders' debate but leaders, with the exception of Deputy Joe Higgins and I, declined to participate. People expect leaders to engage. Will the Taoiseach confirm if, as indicated by a spokesperson yesterday, he has been invited by RTE to participate in a debate and what are his intentions in that regard?

Deputy Joe Higgins

The Taoiseach should escape from his handlers for once.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

Deputy Higgins is doing a bit of handling these days himself.

The Taoiseach

I will deal any time with Deputy Higgins.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Leaders' Questions. Please allow the Taoiseach to respond to Deputy Martin's question.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Martin for his public support, and that of his party, for a "Yes" vote on the referendum on the fiscal stability treaty. It is important there is no equivocation about this. It is of particular and fundamental concern for the future of our people and country.

This evening's informal meeting of European leaders is, I am glad to say, the realisation of the claims by quite a number of leaders for some time that Europe should focus on growth investment and job opportunities. It is important to note that this is a meeting of 27 leaders rather than of 25 leaders because growth affects all European Union countries. The opportunity and potential exists for the European Union to be the engine of trade in a global sense, to reduce the cost of business and to complete the Single Market. It also has potential in the digital area and to deal with the crisis issues in the eurozone in the context of the discussions on project bonds, eurobonds and other facilities to relieve pressure on sovereign Governments and to look at the broader spectrum of EU-US and EU-China trade relations. I expect leaders of the 27 countries will contribute to this evening's meeting on the growth agenda for the future. I am happy to participate in that debate from a national and European perspective.

I have no difficulty discussing the fiscal stability treaty. However, I turned down the invitation to appear on a particular programme for good reasons. RTE has invited me, as Taoiseach, to do a broadcast on Sunday following the Ard-Fheis contribution of the leader of Sinn Fein, Deputy Gerry Adams. However, I believe that to be predicated on how much time Deputy Adams devotes to the fiscal stability treaty issue on Saturday evening.

A Deputy

Deputy Adams will have to read the treaty now.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

His contribution will be brief.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

I am glad Deputy Martin raised the matter. Were I to cave in to the pressure that has been around for some days I would be elevating Deputy Adams to the position of Leader of the Opposition-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Taoiseach has called him that at least ten times. He started this.

The Taoiseach

-----which he is not. I have yet to hear Deputy Adams, as the leader of a political party, say he accepts the validity of the Irish Constitution, Bunreacht na hÉireann. I am a little sceptical about much of what I hear from that side of the House.

We will consider these matters.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am unclear as to the Taoiseach's response to my question.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Taoiseach is like Jedward.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I accept that today's meeting is extremely important. However, the debate here is equally important. I read in The Irish Times this morning that the Taoiseach’s spokesman confirmed last night that the Taoiseach had received a request from RTE to participate in a leaders’ debate.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It must be true so.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The spokesman said the Taoiseach had received numerous requests. I asked the Taoiseach if he would confirm that he had received a request from RTE to participate in a debate. Fianna Fáil has inquired of RTE if there is to be a debate but has received no response in that regard. It is a fair question. I am not getting involved in any issue between the Taoiseach and Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin is holding its Ard-Fheis this weekend----

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Ammunition for Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----which I believe is the context of the invitation to the Taoiseach to do a broadcast. It is an unusual set of circumstances because normally political parties holding ard-fheiseanna are informed by RTE that if an Ard-Fheis takes place six weeks in advance of any general election there will be no coverage of it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have a supplementary question, please?

Deputy Micheál Martin

That would normally be the case but this is a change of tack in regard to how Sinn Féin is being treated. The Taoiseach has been invited but that is not really my point. That is for another day and other parties will also have issues about it in the fullness of time.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Do you have an issue?

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, you are over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

What I am trying to get at here is the need for a genuine political debate between the political leaders on both sides who are advocating positions on the treaty. It is the fairest way to resolve any claims or counter-claims about lack of balance in how particular parties are treated or in terms of the campaign. More important, we should have the confidence in our position to be able to go on national television and debate the issues. People do not understand a reluctance to become involved.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, you are considerably over time. Do you have your supplementary question?

Deputy Finian McGrath

What about the Independents?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach confirm that RTE has invited him to participate in a debate, as his spokesman stated last night?

The Taoiseach

We need to reflect on this in the House in a general sense. Leaving the referendum and the treaty question aside for the moment, we need to look at what is happening in regard to referenda in general. Referenda are matters for the people to make decisions on; they are not about giving profiles to individual politicians. Irrespective of the public response in its votes for the different parties, that situation is never reflected in the case of a referendum. I have been through perhaps 22 of the Twenty-six Counties debating this publicly, in village halls, town halls and on the streets-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Not debating.

The Taoiseach

-----and, indeed, meeting the professional dustbin bashers brigade in various locations around the country. Peaceful protest is perfectly legitimate in this country. I have no fear at all of dealing with public debate on this issue. However, I am not sure we should turn this into a crisis situation, offering more advantage for, shall we say, minority party views.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Fear.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is called democracy.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams had his fling on the "Frontline" debate-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

What side are you on, Finian?

The Taoiseach

------with the Tánaiste and more than met his match.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Has RTE invited the Taoiseach?

The Taoiseach

When the Deputy speaks of balancing the debate, if that were to be the case, I consider that I, the Tánaiste and the Deputy's good self would be more than a match for Deputy Adams. He would regard that as being very unbalanced, I am quite sure.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Let us have it.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Throw the ball in, Taoiseach.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Ask Mr. Rabbitte to give us a song.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time, thank you.

The Taoiseach

I know an invitation has come for the Taoiseach to deliver an address on Sunday. I have not personally seen an invitation from RTE to participate in a debate.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I just wanted to confirm if RTE had invited the Taoiseach. That is all.

The Taoiseach

I have not seen any invitation-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Through the Chair, please.

The Taoiseach

-----but I will confirm it to the Deputy after the Order of Business.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The spindoctors will have it.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Independent Deputies should get an invitation as well.

An Ceann Comhairle

Through the Chair, please.

The Taoiseach

I hear Deputy McGrath is on the "Yes" side in Clontarf.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams. Maybe we will all settle down now.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Deputy McGrath does not know whether he is a "Yes" or a "No".

(Interruptions).

A Deputy

Finian is debating with himself.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not know if you are hard of hearing. I called Deputy Adams. Thank you. I know the Deputy is very good. It is the man behind him.

A Deputy

He could debate with Deputy Ross.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I welcome the upcoming Sinn Féin Ard-Fheis. It is not that long since the Fianna Fáil, Labour and Fine Gael parties tried to stop us from meeting in ard-fheiseanna.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Do not waste your time. A question, please.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Welcome to democracy, Taoiseach.

Deputy Alan Shatter

An armalite in one hand, the ballot box had not yet got-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

I also welcome the Taoiseach's newfound conversion to the growth and jobs agenda. When he came back to the Dáil on 14 December to report on the austerity treaty, he never once mentioned in his statement jobs or growth. He waxed lyrical and promoted the treaty around its budgetary discipline, reinforced budgetary rules for countries but there was no word about getting people off the dole and back to work. That is in spite of advice from Sinn Féin. He settled for much less that anybody else and now he is trying to play catch-up.

Is léir go dtugann an Taoiseach tacaíocht dos na beartais céanna a bhfuil teipthe orthu ar fud na hEorpa agus anseo in Éirinn.

Will the Taoiseach stand aside from these EU summits where he is very clearly out of his depth? Why does he not send Jedward to represent us? They might at least stand up for Ireland's interests.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Timmy Dooley

That would fit in well with Sinn Féin strategy.

Deputy Alan Shatter

That is about as intelligent a comment as the Deputy has made so far on the treaty debate.

The Taoiseach

As an elected representative of the House, perhaps Deputy Adams might tell us whether he accepts the validity of Bunreacht na h-Éireann.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Of course I do.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Maith an fear.

The Taoiseach

Thank you. That is the first time I have heard the Deputy say that.

Deputy Joe Higgins

More diversions. Answer the question.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Never a member of the IRA.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin pointed out this is a change from the usual procedure in respect of the Sinn Féin Ard-Fheis but good luck to the Deputy.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Thank you, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

We also wish good luck to Jedward in their-----

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

As to the rest of Deputy Adams's contribution, it does not merit any response-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

Ask Deputy Rabbitte to give us a line of a song.

The Taoiseach

-----because he was very badly exposed in his economics more than once in the last election.

Deputy Gerry Adams

If he will pardon the pun, that is a bit rich given the mess the Taoiseach is making of our economy and that he believes that cutting-----

Deputy Ray Butler

I hope you read the report on the Antrim Area Hospital list.

Deputy Gerry Adams

-----making savage cuts-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Given that he believes in savage cuts and given his failure to put money into jobs investment and have direct Government-led investment, instead putting money into banks, that is very bad economics. That is why he supports the austerity treaty. His is a party of austerity.

In terms of the debate, or the Taoiseach's failure to take part in one, does he not think it is very bizarre that, as Taoiseach, he will be allocated some time, proportionate to what I might say on this treaty at the Ard-Fheis?

Deputy Alan Shatter

It is called balance.

Deputy Gerry Adams

He will then trot out and say his little bit and try to persuade people to say "Yes" to austerity, when people are sensible and will say "No" to it. The Taoiseach should remember it is a very good thing to say "No" to something that is not good for oneself, one's family, one's community, one's state or one's country.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

Say it to violence.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Would it not be more leaderly, for the Taoiseach, to come into a television studio and inform people, leaving his policies open to scrutiny by others and have a genuine informed debate, as opposed to the hecklefest he has in the Chamber? He could argue these points so that people can take an informed decision on 31 May? I certainly hope that people will vote "No".

The Taoiseach

I completely reject the Deputy's assertions. It is also good to say "Yes" to access to money, to stability for investment.

Deputy Gerry Adams

"Yes" to jobs.

The Taoiseach

"Yes" to confidence for growth, to jobs, 1,000 of which have come to Dundalk, as a consequence of Paypal making its decision to invest money in this country.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Thirty per cent of our youth are unemployed.

The Taoiseach

"Yes" to a continued line of investment, week after week, now running at more than 1,000 jobs announced per month because of investment in our country

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

"Yes" to a debate.

The Taoiseach

"Yes" to opportunities where Government can make decisions about having access to finance being made available for small and medium enterprises and small business to create jobs for our young people at home.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Then why not debate it?

The Taoiseach

These are the positive reasons.

The Deputy, his representatives before him, his party outside, have come into this Chamber but they have never once supported any European Union treaty or any European measure. All he wants to do is to create publicity and garner support through protest. That is perfectly legitimate in this country. However, he has never supported a European Union issue.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Jobs.

The Taoiseach

In fact, I had to drag out of him words of credit for a multinational that decided to put 1,000 jobs into his own town of Dundalk. It took the Deputy a long time to come round to recognising that people who are his constituents will have jobs in that plant.

This treaty, for from being about austerity, is about bringing stability, confidence, investment, growth and opportunity.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is not.

The Taoiseach

If Deputy Adams does not recognise that we have to do good housekeeping to get our house in order-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach should read what was said.

The Taoiseach

That will never go away unless we fix it.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Let us have a debate on it.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Mac Lochlainn spoke yesterday about inserting the entire treaty into the Constitution.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

What is the Taoiseach afraid of?

The Taoiseach

That is the kind of hypocrisy I have to listen to from Sinn Féin.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Let us have a debate.

Deputy Alan Shatter

This is a debate.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

We had the blueshirts and now we have the yellowshirts.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

Nul points.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Boyd Barrett.

The Taoiseach

Let us hear the quiet man.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

He should speak up. We cannot hear him.

Deputy Joe Higgins

Give us the Lisbon treaty jobs first - they are three years overdue.

Deputy Tom Hayes

No agreement, Joe.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach should debate the treaty. He should stop hiding behind media soundbites.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy should know all about media soundbites.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

He always gets the last word during these brief Dáil exchanges. The people should get full information on all the issues pertaining to this treaty. The European Stability Mechanism is one of the central issues he has raised as an argument for supporting the treaty. He should take this opportunity to tell the people of this country the truth about the ESM. Will he admit the reality that we will be liable to pay up to €11 billion if we sign up to the ESM? That is what our liability will amount to.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

What will it be if we do not sign up?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That money is likely to end up bailing out Spanish banks.

Deputy Arthur Spring

Two plus two equals ten.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

After putting billions of euro into bailing out Irish banks, we will end up bailing out Spanish banks and other European banks. Where will we get the €11 billion from? That money is in addition to the €8 billion in cuts under the troika programme over the next three years, the €5 billion in cuts that are required to meet the deficit targets under the fiscal treaty and the billions in interest repayments on a debt that will be €200 billion by the time we exit the programme.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputy's answer is to default, to walk away and to let it all fall.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Will the Taoiseach admit that even if we pass the fiscal treaty, there is no guarantee that we will get money from the ESM? If the Spanish banks require recapitalisation, there might not be enough money in the ESM to provide assistance to this State if it requires it.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It will be all gone.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Even if we can access money from the ESM, it will be subject to strict conditionality, which means more austerity will be shoved down the throats of the people of this country.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

The Deputy is advocating the ESM.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Is he in favour of good housekeeping?

An Ceann Comhairle

Can we have a question, please?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is it not incredible that the ESM gives complete immunity from legal prosecution to the board of governors of the ESM?

An Ceann Comhairle

Would you ask a question, Deputy?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The ESM will pay no tax. All of its documentation will be inviolable from any sort of oversight or investigation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy again to ask a question. He is over time.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is what is in the treaty.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Rubbish.

Deputy Ruairí Quinn

Ask a question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Will the Taoiseach admit that the ESM is not an insurance policy for the Irish people? It is not a good reason to vote for the fiscal treaty.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is actually one of the best reasons to vote against the fiscal treaty.

Deputy Michael McCarthy

This is an opinion piece. The Deputy is not asking questions.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is not an insurance policy for the people of this country. It is an insurance policy for the banks and the speculators in Europe.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time. I will have to cut him off if he does not ask a question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is a mechanism to shove more austerity down the throats of Irish citizens-----

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Is the Deputy in favour of good housekeeping?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----and citizens across Europe.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputy thinks default is the answer.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

Is there austerity in St. Michael's?

The Taoiseach

That hysterical rant was completely meaningless and without truth.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

It was a rant.

The Taoiseach

The last word always rests with the people. The people own this referendum. The independent Referendum Commission, chaired by Mr. Justice Feeney, is absolutely above reproach. It has been entirely objective, truthful and accurate in its comments to every citizen who has asked it a question about this treaty. The commission has made the point quite clearly that as the law has been passed, this referendum is the people's property. The people will have the last word. The chairman of the independent commission pointed out quite clearly on page 9 of the guide to the stability treaty that "the granting of financial assistance in the framework of new programmes under the European Stability Mechanism will be conditional, as of 1 March 2013, on the ratification of this Treaty by the Contracting Party ". Mr. Justice Feeney has confirmed that is the case. In other words, countries that ratify the treaty will have access to the European Stability Mechanism. Our contribution to the ESM is €1.2 billion. We contribute less than 2% of it. We have a place on the board. We have a say in how that money will actually be spent.

It is clear that the analysis of the Spanish banks which is to be carried out will bring factual evidence of what the situation there is. The Spanish Prime Minister, Mr. Rajoy, has been speaking about this. The ESM is the permanent bailout facility for the European countries. As the House is aware, it can be used where required for the payment of salaries and pensions and for the running of a country's services. I am not suggesting that it will be required. It is our intention to emerge from the programme as quickly as possible. In order for us to do that, clearly we have to acquire the confidence of the markets. We will not acquire the confidence of the markets, which are without sentiment or sympathy, by voting "No". A "Yes" vote here will guarantee access to the ESM if it is ever required. It will guarantee a continuation of the line of investment and confidence in this country for job creation. It will allow us to put our own regulations in place to ensure every future Government, like every Government across the entire eurozone, will have responsible budgeting and will not return to what we had in the past. I hope Deputy Boyd Barrett can understand what I am saying.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Is it not the truth that the Taoiseach is deceiving people?

Deputy Tom Hayes

Stop messing and tell the truth.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Ciúnas. Have some respect.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

According to the ESM treaty, which I have before me, "there may be paid out of the Central Fund or the growing produce of that Fund sums, aggregating to a sum not exceeding €11,145,400,000".

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

The important words are "not exceeding".

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is in the treaty.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should be asking a question, rather than giving information.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The treaty also states that "if indispensable to safeguard the financial stability of the euro area as a whole and of its Member States", then "the ESM may therefore provide stability support". If it "may" provide it, then it follows that it may not.

Deputy Arthur Spring

We do not have long to wait until 31 May.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The point I am making is that "may" is not the same as "will".

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, please ask your question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The treaty also provides that "in the interest of the ESM, the Chairperson of the Board of Governors, Governors, alternate Governors, Directors, alternate Directors, as well as the Managing Director-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Dr. Strangelove.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----and other staff members shall be immune from legal proceedings". That is what it says. It is incredible.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

It is not the only thing that is incredible.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is no wonder that the Taoiseach does not want to face the facts.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy ask a supplementary question? He is over time.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Will the Taoiseach-----

Deputy Alan Shatter

Will the Deputy speak louder? We cannot hear him.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

-----own up about the-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I will turn off the Deputy's microphone if he does not ask a question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I started with "Will the Taoiseach", which means I was about to ask a question. Will he own up about the deception he is perpetrating on the Irish people about the real content of the ESM?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Go away.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It may cost us €11 billion to bail out the European banks.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, this is not a time for statements. This is Question Time.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is ranting time for the Deputy.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will you ask a question?

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We will have no control over this body. It will be immune from prosecution.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are way over time, Deputy

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It will not have to pay taxes.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to accept the Chair's ruling.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I asked a question.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

Is there any chance you will come back, Finian?

Deputy Finian McGrath

There is a lot of noise coming from the Government benches.

The Taoiseach

As a subsidiary of Sinn Féin on this matter, Deputy Boyd Barrett is promoting the cause of the "No" side. It should be borne in mind that the Deputy and his group have been talking about sending the EU and the IMF home with their moneys. They then said the ESM should be vetoed.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

They said we should be like Greece.

The Taoiseach

Now they say we should use the ESM.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I do not say that. I have never said that.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

Joe said it.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach should not confuse me with others on these benches.

The Taoiseach

Are you the leader of the group?

An Ceann Comhairle

Through the Chair, please. We are over time.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We never say that.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It is too late for that.

Deputy Pat Rabbitte

It is a lost cause.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Deputy should stop making up our argument.

Deputy Patrick O’Donovan

The Deputy should read Joe's script again.

The Taoiseach

They have said it will be all right on the night. They have suggested we will get plenty of money from the ESM at unknown rates of interest.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We did not say that.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams refuses to explain how that can be done. There is no answer to that question.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

We did not say that.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputies opposite should stop shouting people down.

Deputy Arthur Spring

They are like Jedward.

Deputy Ray Butler

The Russian grannies.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Boyd Barrett is aware, the ESM treaty is a separate treaty from the fiscal stability treaty.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Taoiseach said we have to be able to access it.

The Taoiseach

It will be the subject of a full discussion in this House. The Deputy can contribute in his own way to that discussion. As I have said, Ireland contributes €1.2 billion to this mechanism, or less than 2% of the total. We are represented on the board.

It is available for use for any country that might have a requirement to draw from it, a fact that has been confirmed in this fiscal stability treaty debate by the chairman of the independent Referendum Commission, who, as I said, is absolutely above reproach in this matter.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Shame the devil and tell the truth.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Boyd Barrett does not accept his word, neither does Deputy Adams. He puts forward these falsehoods all over this country, on posters in his name, which he knows are hypocritical and untruthful, to say the least.

A Deputy

He is only confusing Finian.

Deputy Alan Shatter

Finian is more confused now than when he came in.